365 Autistic Burnout & Self-Care with Dr. Megan Anna Neff

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Penny Williams: Welcome back everyone. I am super, super excited to have with me Dr. Megan Anna Neff, and we're gonna talk about autistic burnout and self-care, what that means for our kids, what that means for maybe you if you are also a neurodivergent adult, and really get into some strategies and lots of good stuff.

So Dr. Neff, will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. So I am a clinical psychologist, and I'm founder of Neurodivergent Insights. So we create kind of visual forward education is how I think about it. I'm someone who thinks in visuals, and so I need to have visual context to [00:01:00] understand the concept. So one of my biggest passions, I thought I was gonna go into academia and research, and when I realized how much education we can share through social media and through digital space, I became really passionate about distilling more information, specifically around autism and ADHD.

I'm autistic and ADHD myself, and then also parenting neurodivergent children. So I also do a lot of work around kind of the lost generation of autistic and ADHD adults and mental health. So that's some of what I do.

Penny Williams: Can you tell us a little bit more about how your own neurodivergence really shaped the work that you're doing now?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: It really shapes the way I think about and talk about, I think, advocacy within the mental health space. You know, I'm someone who had many mental health conditions before autism or ADHD were discovered. I'm also someone whose [00:02:00] child could have and should have probably been identified earlier, and if she hadn't been a girl, probably would have been identified earlier.

So I think it really shapes how, especially when I'm talking to other clinicians about what to look for, about what we're missing as a field, about the risks of missing us. And then I think I'm talking from inside the experience, and so I'm also drawn to more affirming frameworks for understanding both autism and ADHD.

I also don't wanna be Pollyannish with it. There are very real struggles with being autistic and with parenting autistic children, so not in a way that wants to gloss over those, but in a way that's more balanced, where we can look at both the strengths and the challenges of being inside and living inside of an autistic or ADHD nervous system and neurology.

Penny Williams: [00:03:00] When you look back at your own childhood, are there things that you wish that your parents or your teachers or the other adults in your life had picked up on or knew about what you were experiencing?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, that's a great question. Yeah, I mean, I wish... And I can also say this with a lot of compassion for my parents and for the fact of we just weren't catching people like me, and especially girls. It's interesting. I often say I really wish the ADHD had been caught.

The autism in some ways, I feel like I came to know this about myself at a time in my life I was ready to really integrate that identity. I think if we'd been able to catch the ADHD when I was in mental health treatment for anxiety and depression, I think that would've really helped with school.

School was always a challenge for me for reasons I didn't know. And I think a lot of the unfortunate coping that I fell into, I [00:04:00] would've had more options and more scaffolding if we'd known about the ADHD. So if I could go back, that's one thing. I think I have really wonderful parents who...

You know, my room was always so messy, and so my mom would body double it with me and be like, "Okay, we're gonna start this corner. We'll do this together. We'll move on to this corner." And I needed that kind of executive functioning support, and she was really supportive when I was struggling to learn how to read.

I also have mild dyslexia, so when I was struggling to learn how to read, she was a really patient teacher. So I was fortunate enough to have parents who were very attuned and patient, which really offset a lot of the things I was struggling with.

Penny Williams: They were really supportive it sounds like, which is amazing. Definitely a different time, and I think a lot of fell through the cracks and we just didn't know yet. Now we know better, so we're able [00:05:00] to do better.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. And that's why I love that term lost generation, 'cause there's a whole generation of us who've, many of us have been in mental health therapy for a long time and maybe even been given diagnoses like treatment-resistant depression, and it's because this big piece has been missed.

Penny Williams: Do you think that that had any impact on you getting into the mental health field?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, definitely. I had really positive experiences with most of the therapists I went to. My dad's also a psychologist, so I also grew up around psychology. I think psychology was one of my special interests because it was part of how I tried to crack the code and how to fit in was, like, if I could understand people and understand how my mind worked, that really helped orient me.

And so I absolutely think it influenced my decision to go into the mental health field, for sure.

Penny Williams: Yeah. I was just curious about that, honestly.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. [00:06:00] I think a lot of people go into the mental health field because of their own mental health journey. And so I think that's a common pathway.

Penny Williams: Let's talk about autistic burnout. Can you tell us what that is? How do we understand it in simple terms?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: In the simplest terms, would be to use the definition that Dora Raymaker and their research team first came out with.

Since their research, which was, I think, early 2020s, there's been a lot more research studies on it, which is amazing. But their kind of working definition was we see an increase of exhaustion, so physical exhaustion, cognitive exhaustion. So that can also look like more difficulty with things like word finding or access to speech, if someone's baseline is that they normally have access to speech, we can see a decline there.

So energetic exhaustion and cognitive, and the kind where it's like even after a full night's sleep, you're still waking up exhausted. [00:07:00] Also an increase in sensory sensitivities. So of course, a lot of autistic folks have many sensory sensitivities at baseline, but again, we're gonna see an increase from that.

So for example, some of the things I see, maybe someone can typically tolerate the transition in and out of a shower. There's a lot of sensory transitions that go into that, but maybe when they're in burnout, that starts leading to a sensory meltdown when they're trying to do that.

So we'll see a lot more meltdowns and sensory shutdowns. In young children, this can look like the child having more big emotions or emotional meltdowns, 'cause sometimes they look so similar, so we can easily mistake sensory for emotional. And then the third is a loss of skills.

This one's really interesting to me. I don't like the language of like autistic regression that's sometimes talked about with children, where it's [00:08:00] kind of skills are lost. But I'm curious about, especially burnout in children, if sometimes there's some overshadowing there that's happening, 'cause we know that there can be a loss of skills.

So that could be executive functioning, but it could also be developmental skills potentially, where a child's maybe able to do something one month and then the next they can't access that. Or in adults, it can look like skills they have that help them in the workplace, they just can't access.

I've seen accountants who then can't do simple math when they're in extreme burnout. So it's a really global pervasive burnout of the nervous system, and what we see in autistic burnout is that global functioning just takes a really steep hit. Now burnout is burnout. The question I often get is, how is autistic burnout different than any kind of burnout?

And I would say all burnout is burnout of [00:09:00] the nervous system. But with autistic burnout, I think because these things are already more vulnerable for us, we see a much more pervasive impact, and then our ability to do daily tasks is where we see a lot of struggle that can be disorienting for us and also disorienting for the people around us.

Penny Williams: Yeah. From a neuroscience standpoint too, when you're talking about losing access to skills, for me, I think, okay, well, if you're dysregulated, you're losing access to the thinking brain, so you're losing access to where those are stored, so it makes a lot of sense that that's happening. How can we tell, is there a timeline?

Is there some sort of, you know, after this many weeks, or I'm sure it's not that specific, but how do we tell when a kid's just having a hard period and when it's burnout?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: I don't fully know the logic that went into this. In Dora Raymaker's [00:10:00] definition, they do say three months. And I think for a lot of clinical definitions, you just need to insert a timeline. I don't know that it always shows up that clean cut. But I do think the narratives in our heads that invoke threat, that invokes strain on our nervous system, and it's not great for us.

And so I think when we're parenting vulnerable children, it is easy to invoke those threat narratives, like if they're having a low energy day. So I do think there's wisdom in being attuned but not catastrophizing, if that makes sense.

Penny Williams: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Let's increase the demands, let's increase sensory soothers, but maybe not jumping to, this is burnout and it's gonna be like this forever.

So I think having an eye on it, especially 'cause I feel like kids in modern society are asked to do so much. [00:11:00] So I definitely think it's good to be proactive when we're seeing more fatigue or more meltdowns in our kids. Trying to lower sensory demands, lower demands, increase rest time, increase space for special interests, while also being careful of those threat narratives.

I know as a parent, it's so easy for me to get pulled into those threat narratives, and then I know my kids are picking up on that energy when I'm acting from that energy, and that's not helpful for anyone's burnout in the family system.

Penny Williams: And I would guess that school is one of the biggest drivers of burnout for neurodivergent individuals. How can we influence that? How can we help with that?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: It's so hard. It's so hard. In the community I run, we have parent calls, and I feel like school comes up so often, and especially if parents are also parenting PDAers. So that's, it stands [00:12:00] for pathological demand avoidance, or the more preferred term is pervasive drive for autonomy.

And these children especially burn out at such high rates from school, if they're able to even access school. It depends, I think, so much based on state laws. There's some states where if a child's absent, that can invoke calls to child protective services. And so I'm hesitant to say, "Do this, this, or this."

I think whenever possible, if it can be part of an individualized plan for a child to talk about sensory breaks, to talk about, is it possible to have some later starts? Or like, we advocated on ours, like our child struggles to make it to school, and we know we can't formally request an accommodation, but can we mark it on the document that for [00:13:00] various health reasons, there will be more absences?

And if you are in a state where there is some leniency, we're in Oregon where there's a lot of leniency around how many days in school you are. We do create a lot of space for sensory sick days or just pacing days, where our kids are able to say that they need that.

And then it comes back to, I think, the expectations we hold too, of managing our own expectations around what does a healthfully paced life look like. Yeah. Yeah.

Penny Williams: Yeah, setting that culture.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And dropping demands is something that's talked about a lot both in the PDA space but also burnout space.

But dropping demands, I think, or having a low demand lifestyle, [00:14:00] it often needs to be a family experience.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: And so it's what does it look like to be a little bit countercultural and to live a slow lifestyle, if that's something that we can access. What does it look like to be kind of resistant to culture in that way?

Penny Williams: Hmm. Can we talk a little bit about burnout recovery? And then I wanna move on to being proactive and some prevention.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah.

Penny Williams: What does recovery look like?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: It'll look different for every person, and I wish I could say it's like these big things. For a lot of people I know who have recovered from burnout, it's been an accumulation of a lot of little things. Now, the kind of areas that I think are emphasized the most, one is sensory.

So much of burnout I think comes from us navigating environments that are misaligned to our sensory system. Take school, for example. It is [00:15:00] such a sensory overloading environment. So sensory accommodations, things that we put on our bodies, that could be like tinted glasses to reduce some of the visual stimuli.

It could be noise blockers or noise reducers. Even some of the clothes we wear can help reduce some of the sensory input. Also adding in sensory soothers. For some people, like for me, weight is a very soothing thing. For some people, they can't, that's too much proprioceptive input. So a lot of it I think starts around the sensory health and sensory self-care.

And then from there, I think extending into nervous system, and that can look like getting to know the nervous system, learning some practices to help down-regulate when our nervous system is in threat mode. There's also more and more kinda things like [00:16:00] biofeedback, or different newer psychotherapies that are incorporating the body in ways that can help support the nervous system.

Cranial sacral therapy is another one that I hear get mentioned a lot in our community and that I know was really impactful for our family. So there's a whole kind of wealth of resources there. Sleep, you know, a lot of autistic folks have co-occurring sleep conditions, so anything we can do to improve quantity or quality of sleep is gonna make a big impact.

So I think it's looking at these different domains and then making a lot of little small tweaks that help the body and the nervous system to be able to recover. And also paying attention to our narratives, like the narratives we tell, we're either signaling safety to our bodies or we're signaling threat, and I think especially 'cause we're prone [00:17:00] to ruminate, many of us can spend a lot of our time sending signals of threat to ourselves about ourselves or about the world.

So I think that could also be another impactful place to spend some time.

Penny Williams: I'm so very thankful that we are talking more about the nervous system now in general. It matters so much.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: It is, and I almost, I feel like I've been talking about it for a while, and now I almost cringe a little when I talk about it now 'cause it feels like so pop psychology.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: But I'm also like, I'm so excited that people are realizing how interconnected this is, and how there's so much that we do in micro moments that impact our nervous system.

Yeah.

Penny Williams: Yeah, it's really the control center.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. Yeah.

Penny Williams: It governs what happens and the of things, which I talk so much with parents about. We need to be regulated for things [00:18:00] to be doable. So I'm happy that we're talking about it in all different spaces.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Mm-hmm.

Penny Williams: And hopefully we don't get desensitized to that conversation.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. I hope it stays rich and keeps the nuance and keeps the meaning. Yeah, yeah.

Penny Williams: For sure. So I have your card deck for anybody who's watching, the self-care activities for autistic people, which is amazing. Can you talk to us about why you created that? Why do we need self-care, and is the self-care different for autistic people than for neurotypical people?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. So is self-care different? I think in some ways yes, and in some ways no. In some ways yes, in the sense that I think a lot of the cultural messages around like relaxation, rest, self-care, those don't always align for us. Especially as a woman, a lot of the social scripts of going to [00:19:00] a salon or anything beauty related, I'm like, all of that sounds like a sensory nightmare.

None of that's relaxing. And then as an AuDHD-er, I struggle to relax 'cause of my ADHD, so again, my self-care is probably gonna look a little bit more active. I don't rest or relax very well. So I think there are some ways that just the cultural scripts around what self-care looks like can be a bit different for us.

And then so a lot of autistic folks, especially if we're someone who masks, we've learned, it's almost like self-care has been trained out of us to where we've learned to suppress the signals coming from inside our body. So for example, I pretty much always want to avoid eye contact.

My body pretty much always wants to be moving. But these were things in childhood that were kinda trained out of me. And with that, the message also became like, I can't trust [00:20:00] my body to know what's good for it, 'cause when I did, it got me in trouble. So there's this part about learning to re-trust our body and what our body needs, that is such a core part of self-care.

I often say self-care starts with self-attunement, the ability to attune to like, here's what's happening for me in this moment, here's what I need. And so that can be harder for autistic folks, partly 'cause it can be trained out of us. It can also be harder because of interoception challenges, like if we don't have access to signals of thirst or hunger, then those basic self-care parts can be harder, which can absolutely contribute to burnout.

And so I think spending more time on that piece around bodily awareness, sensory awareness, validation that our needs are worthy of care is something that a lot of autistic folks need some support with. [00:21:00] And then the whole aspect of sensory self-care, I think that's just something that society in general doesn't talk a whole lot about, and then I would say that's a pretty foundational bucket of self-care for us.

So those are some of the ways I would say it can be a little bit different for us. And then also we can experience more blocks around certain kinds of self-care, whether movement's harder to access for sensory reasons. Why the card deck? So it started with, a couple years ago, I wrote the book, "Self-Care for Autistic People," but then we decided to also make a card deck to make it even a little bit more accessible and executive functioning friendly, maybe it's intimidating to read a whole book, but to be able to pull out a card...

And maybe that activity is a go on some days, and maybe that activity is like, "Ugh, nope," but then you can pick something else out. So it's hopefully there to help make activities feel a little bit more— to [00:22:00] reduce the blocks around initiation of self-care.

Penny Williams: Hmm. I love that. I've been using different card decks for self-affirmations and breathwork and things like that, and I love just being able to pull out one card, put it in front of me for the day, move on to the next one for the next day, and I think a lot of kids would enjoy that as well. I think that a lot of what's in this card deck would be applicable to use for kids also and to teach.

Like don't we want to start teaching self-care earlier, right?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Especially because a lot of autistic children do still experience that invalidation. So self-care as a way of teaching how do I validate my body signals? How do I validate my needs? And how do I work with these emotions that can be so overwhelming at times?

And being able to build that in foundationally. We know that increasing [00:23:00] emotional awareness and skills in children has so many positive, upriver impacts for things like mental health. So absolutely, I think it's great if we can start teaching these kind of foundational concepts to our kids when they're young,

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: and modeling it.

Penny Williams: Yeah, of course, right? We need to be doing it too. I'm wondering, is there a connection between the sensory and the emotional regulation?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, absolutely. I mean, sensory is like energy in the body, which is also kind of emotional. And sensory, I think I get most irritated when I'm sensory overwhelmed, the nervous system is the— you know, when the sensory system's kind of being grated, then the nervous system's being grated and then yeah, we're gonna...

If we're going into a sensory meltdown, we're gonna have more hyperarousal of the nervous system, which tends to track with things like more anxiety and agitation. And [00:24:00] that's one of the mistakes that I see happening in therapy a lot, and that I was making, until I developed what I call a sensory lens, which is, we were seeing emotion when the cause was sensory, and we were trying to intervene with emotion regulation strategies when it's like, okay, how do we create more sensory predictability into this space?

How do we reduce sensory input? Maybe dimming the lights or starting to sway and modeling kind of the sway movement. So absolutely this is such a common thing. And when I look back at my kids when they were young, I labeled so many things as my kids being emotional when it was a sensory response, and I have so much grief about that, about all of the times I missed their sensory needs 'cause I was seeing it through an emotional lens.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. That's why I asked that question, 'cause parents come to me a lot and say, "My kid's so emotional. They're not regulating their emotions very [00:25:00] well." But is that what's actually happening, or is that just the signal on the surface that we're getting that there's something that needs assistance and needs help, that needs change, right?

And so I love that you brought that together.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: I think curiosity is one of our biggest gifts as parents. And it's hard. It's hard when we're tired and when we're over-touched and when we're sensory overloaded. But can I treat my kids' emotions as a signal? And then can I get curious about it? So maybe, if I come in with an assumption, like a generous assumption that their emotions make sense, then how do I backwards track that, of like, okay, are there sensory elements here?

Has there been a routine disruption, or have I sprung something unexpected on them? 'Cause that can also create a lot of big emotions for autistic children, especially unexpected changes. And then can we backward track it to [00:26:00] find the unidentified need? And I wish I would've been faster at it, it was hard 'cause I didn't have the autism lens, but there's so many times where after there was a pattern, we were able to finally find the unidentified need.

During the start of the pandemic, there was so much uncertainty, and we finally got a huge whiteboard and started mapping out the whole day visually. And it was amazing how much that down-regulated the arousal in the household, just having a visual map of the day and of what to expect. And of course, it took way more emotional meltdowns than it should have before we figured that out.

But it's often things like that, which is how we figure out our children's needs that they're trying to express.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. I'm curious, do you have a couple of favorite self-care activities?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: For myself, for my kids?

Penny Williams: Just, I was just curious, like [00:27:00] are there some in there in the deck or in the book that are like really standouts for you, and maybe some that would be kid-friendly?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. There's one in there about the worry, the worry machine, that I like. I like it because I feel it's so important, especially when we're talking about cognitive strategies for self-care, that we also validate the person's experience. And so I like that card because it starts by validating, like, worry is here for a reason, it makes sense, and also can be hard, so let's think about how we worry well.

So that's one that comes to mind. I, in general, I feel like sensory self-care has changed my life so much that any of the sensory ones, because, you know, I didn't have access to sensory self-care for 37 years 'cause I didn't know I needed it. And then being able to incorporate sensory soothers and self-care into my life [00:28:00] has made such a difference for my nervous system, my emotions, that I think anything sensory.

I also am really drawn to a concept like mindfulness on the go. So a lot of CBT techniques that are around, let's catch the catastrophic thought and change it or challenge it, I find that those can be hard for a lot of autistic folks. And I think actually anyone who has an experience that is marginalized, we have to be really careful with CBT 'cause it can risk...

So, for example, an autistic child might say, "Well, everyone's looking at me." And so to challenge that thought might be like, "Well, is everyone looking at you?" And a therapist might go through what's the evidence for that. Well, for that child, maybe people are looking at them, and that's a very real experience.

And so mindfulness on the go, or more mindfulness approaches, it's about let's tag the stressful thoughts when they [00:29:00] show up, name them, identify them, but we're not gonna try to change them or challenge them. That's probably been the number one most helpful thing for me in my mental health. I live with a lot of anxiety, and so being able to tag thoughts or scripts, and then as a parent being able to tag, like, "Oh, I'm having a worry script about my child's future that's playing right now," that kind of meta-awareness, it has been so helpful for my mental health.

So I would say kind of meta-awareness, mindfulness tagging is also one of my favorite self-care practices.

Penny Williams: The concept of invalidation has been coming up for me over and over again as we've been talking, that we often invalidate when we don't mean to. It's not our intention, but often what we say to someone who is struggling in the moment is invalidating. And what you were just talking about with the CBT, that could be very invalidating, and we have to be [00:30:00] careful of that.

And it's not something that we are taught to do. We have to figure it out, right?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah. So there's a whole kind of field of research emerging around traumatic invalidation and chronic invalidation, and I'm really interested in this concept 'cause I think it's part of the autistic experience that gets missed so easily. And I think as parents sometimes we move into comfort, and sometimes we're trying to comfort our own anxiety or our kids, but exactly, it ends up being invalidating, and what the child needs is a space for their reality to be validated.

As autistic folks, we get a lot of micro-invalidation, so even things like sensory, it's not too bright in here, or if we're, like, one of my children is so sensitive to spice, and so it could be easy to be like, "Oh, it's not that spicy." But for them, it really is that [00:31:00] spicy. So the sensory invalidation that a lot of autistic people get, again, it trains the body not to trust ourselves.

And then because of social perception differences, it can also be common, we can sense there's a conflict or something, and then we'll ask about it, and a lot of non-autistic people are a little bit uncomfortable with directly saying, "Yes, something came up here." So there's also a lot of ways that our sensory perceptions are invalidated, and we already struggle to trust those.

So anytime we can be truthful and honest and validating, even saying things like, "This is a hard moment," or, "It makes sense you feel this way," that's something that settles the nervous system, of like, "Oh, I don't need to convince you that I'm struggling." And so there's actually been research that looks at, that took college students and had them do math equations that were really hard, and they [00:32:00] were hooked up to kind of all kinds of biometrics.

And they were either given a validating or invalidating response, so they were either told by the person, "Yeah, this is a really hard math problem, other people have struggled too," or they were told, "Other people struggled, but not as much as you." And they measured the stress response, and people who were given validating responses, their nervous system stress response started to go down.

They did a series of six math problems, whereas those who were given invalidating responses, they stayed at that threat mode. So yeah, invalidation, that is a great way we can support self-care and reduce burnout, is by being able to validate our kids and ourselves.

Penny Williams: Yeah, it's something I've been learning a lot about from my 20-something kids, trying to lean into. You [00:33:00] know, I know that this is true for you, 'cause a lot of times they'll say, "I shouldn't feel this way. This shouldn't be so hard for me," right? And I say, "But that's what's true for you.

You feel that way. That's valid because you're feeling it, it's happening," right? And really trying to lean into that more. I've learned a lot about what comes across that way. Go ahead.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: I was just gonna say, it's also valid that they don't wanna be feeling that way. It's also valid that it's so hard for me that this is hard for me, and that... This is something I really learned from Dr. Danica Maddox. Dr. Maddox does a lot with the 2e, so gifted and neurodivergent, space.

And I learned a lot from her in this space around, especially for gifted children, of, what example... In a conversation on [00:34:00] our podcast, she gave a great example of, you know, it's easy to rush in when a child's doing an art project and they've made a mistake and say, "Oh, it's beautiful."

But for that child, it might be so distressing, so a validating response might be, "It didn't turn out the way you were hoping it did."

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: And so to name, like, it's okay that you have so much distress about the fact that it's not turning out the way you want it to. And that was an aha moment for me, of realizing I was getting that part of validation wrong. Mm-hmm.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've learned a lot about validation as my kids have gotten older. Things that I thought I was being really helpful with, like, "I know you've got this," and that was being received as invalidation, not validating that experience. So I'm so glad that we got to talk about that a little bit together 'cause I think it's so important.

Yeah.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: A great visual encouragement or validation. [00:35:00] And it is hard. We're all gonna get it wrong because it is a very fine line between what's encouraging, what's supporting resilience, and when does that cross into invalidation.

Yeah.

Penny Williams: Yeah, for sure. Tell everybody where they can find you online, find your book, your card deck, all that good stuff.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah, so we have a website, neurodivergentinsights.com, and we have lots of articles and visual guides and resources for parents as well as adults up there. And then for the books and the card decks, you can find links to those on our website, but also they're available at all major book outlets.

And so you can pretty much find them wherever you'd find books, yeah.

Penny Williams: Awesome. And I'll link it all up for everyone in the show notes as well, and I would encourage people to follow you on Instagram. It's very visual and I love that. I'm also always wanting to create [00:36:00] visuals for everything. It's just so helpful. And so I really enjoy that from you.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.

Penny Williams: So everybody can check that in the show notes, and I'll see everyone next time. Take good care.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff: Yeah.