363 Lessons from Blue's Clues and Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, with Angela Santomero

Penny Williams: [00:00:00] Welcome back, everyone. I am super excited to have with me today Angela Santomero to talk about what she learned creating Blue's Clues and Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, her new series, which I'll let her talk about as well, and what we can take away from that in parenting our own kids and educating our own neurodivergent kids.

How do we interact with them in a way that engages and also teaches skills? I know we're gonna get to so much good stuff, but Angela, will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Angela Santomero: Sure. I'm Angela Santomero. I have a master's in child developmental psychology and create educational media. Blue's Clues was my first show. I come from a family of teachers, and so I wanted to educate through media. Then I did Super Why! and Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, and my newest is Princess Penelope's [00:01:00] Purse of Preposterous Things.

Penny Williams: Which is a mouthful, but I love it. I wanna start this conversation by really talking about the format that you have used over the years in creating these characters and television programming for children. I remember, my kids are 27 and 23. My 27-year-old daughter is so crazy excited that I'm talking to somebody about Blue's Clues because that was the thing when she was younger.

And I remember that it felt different to watch that show than some of the other kids' programming. What can we learn from that? What can we take away from that format?

Angela Santomero: Thank you for saying that because the interactive format is probably my trademark, I think. But it's also the most [00:02:00] important with regard to practicing the skills that we put into the foundation and the curriculum of the show, and it allows kids to play. It's that ping pong in child development or in developmental psychology, where you're having a conversation, and you're pausing long enough for somebody to interact back to you, and then you're adding to that conversation.

When we were first thinking about Blue's Clues, what Nickelodeon wanted was a game show. So the idea of a game show for little ones, and I had been trying to get education into Nickelodeon, was this idea of interactivity, this playing, this -- I pitched it as a hide and seek kind of phenomenon.

But then we did all the kindergarten readiness skills, and what we found with our summative and longitudinal research is that kids are literally practicing those skills. So kids who watched Blue's Clues, Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood, Super Why!, all scored statistically significantly better on standardized tests than kids who didn't watch. [00:03:00]

And so those concepts were being mastered, which we are so proud of.

Penny Williams: Yeah, and what strikes me is maybe problem-solving skills most of all. I watched some clips of your new program too on YouTube, and just that asking the child for their input, just knowing they're there and asking for their input and asking what maybe they would do -- doesn't that also help to foster those problem-solving skills?

Angela Santomero: Yeah, absolutely. Princess Penelope is all about critical thinking skills and creative thinking skills, right? The idea that that's what I feel littles, preschoolers, need now for when they're in their twenties, right? Like, we don't really know what exactly they're gonna need, but we know they're gonna need to think critically, to know that there's always a solution to the problem, to problem-solve with kindness.

And so this back and [00:04:00] forth, and Penelope leaning into you and waiting a specific amount of time so that you can think through the question and formulate an answer and come back, is really important. And the resilience -- there's a new episode where Princess Penelope doesn't get it right on the first or second try, and so she continues to try.

There's no real -- I'm not showcasing that there are wrong answers, but there are different answers for what it is that you're looking to do. And so I think that's also such an important aspect of problem-solving.

Penny Williams: You've said that kindness isn't soft, that it's actually a superpower. Can you talk to us a little more about that? When I read that, I thought, "Wow, we do think of kindness as this soft and gentle thing." How else can we reimagine it?

Angela Santomero: Being nice and being kind are two different things, and sometimes the idea of being [00:05:00] kind is a little bit radical because sometimes we need constructive criticism in order to get the best results in terms of that level of kindness. For instance, how I translate that to littles is the idea that Princess Penelope doesn't wanna change our fire-breathing dragon. She wants to use his fire for good. How can you do that? So this idea that you're choosing compassion and kindness to help solve a problem by not changing somebody else -- that's an active kindness solution.

Penny Williams: And you mentioned creativity. Can you talk to us a little about how we can harness, maybe as parents or educators, how do we harness creativity to help build skills, to help foster kindness? You're talking about the dragon and thinking of different ways that might be a benefit. That's really what we need as parents of neurodivergent kids. So how do we do [00:06:00] that? How do we integrate that in our day-to-day lives?

Angela Santomero: I think there's so many answers to that question, but I think the first one is that idea of the fantasy reality -- embracing the joy and the metaphor and leaning into what kids are finding exciting or interesting, and letting them talk, letting them have the wrong answers, letting them be imaginative and creative and think through something before we correct them, right?

We want them to try. I've been hearing that parents are giving kids Ziploc bags and pulling things out or paper bags, and being like, "Now what do we do?" And there's no wrong answer really for how we're gonna use tape to solve something. So the idea of just flexing that muscle and realizing that we're using it as a metaphor to help kids do things in the real world, but we're doing it in a way that we're speaking their language of play. [00:07:00]

Penny Williams: And how do we help them to think differently? You know, what you're talking about is letting kids lead, but of course, we also have this role of guidance. So how do we help to guide them into thinking about maybe this thing that they pulled out of the bag in a totally different way without really leading them?

Angela Santomero: Yeah, it's the scaffolding that we love so much, and teacher-led play. So meaning we're not doing it for them or answering the question, but we're adding a little bit of information, or we're adding a little bit of a scaffold to hold them up. And so we're like, "Oh, well, what else could we do with that?" Or, "That's really sticky -- is there something that we could stick to it?" So you're adding expressive vocabulary or adding a little bit of a thinking moment in what they're already doing, and we're doing that scaffolding. Our shows are so repetitive for a reason, and the repetition obviously is the key to learning for [00:08:00] all kids.

But also the idea that we're repeating and elevating. Every time we repeat, we're scaffolding that information a little bit. There's a rhyme and a reason behind it, and I think that's also something that's really different in the way in which we approach media and can help in real life.

Because every time kids wanna hear the same story again at bedtime, it's because they're learning something new. So us understanding that level of repetition, to gain that mastery of whatever it is that the kids are trying to master, I think is really important.

Penny Williams: And letting them have the space. As parents, I think we talk way too much. We do not give our kids enough space to respond, to think critically, to think imaginatively. Do you have tips for parents on how to pull back, to override that instinct to say too much and try to fill in the blanks or find the [00:09:00] right answers for them, especially in situations where there aren't right answers?

Angela Santomero: Yeah, I think that pause -- which is how we solved the idea of interactivity right back in the day -- is still so relevant. The idea that we're using this four-beat pause, and that wasn't scientific, it was literally me on set being like, when Steve would ask a question on Blue's Clues, I'd wait until I was ready to answer him, and that's kind of what we need to do in real life.

We've been hearing from parents back in the day, and still now, that they're like, "Oh, that reminded me what happens when I take a break and I do pause." Because what's so interesting is it can be uncomfortable in any situation with adults. But with kids, when you do that and the first time they say something genius -- 'cause they always come up with something adorably genius -- you're like, "Oh my gosh, I need to [00:10:00] do that more often."

Versus what we sometimes do, which is, "How's school? Good. Okay, great. What did you have for lunch? Did you..." You know, we're just moving so fast.

Penny Williams: Yeah, just slowing it down and giving them space to be themselves and to surprise us. I think we lean on those assumptions that our kids aren't gonna have the answer, that they aren't gonna know what to do, or maybe they won't have the answer that we think they should have. All these things that get in our way of just letting them be themselves and discover themselves. I love that.

That out-of-the-box thinking -- what other skills does it really help to build in children? We've talked about problem-solving. What about decisions, creativity, confidence? Does that come into play too?

Angela Santomero: Oh, yeah. And it's higher order thinking skills too, right? So yeah, we're [00:11:00] showcasing all of it in those little bitty moments. Like with Princess Penelope, we're thinking about the three things that are in the purse and having to remember what we're doing and what was in the purse for when we have another situation. So we're constantly adding to that. There's expressive vocabulary in there. It depends on literally what we're using the interactivity for -- everything from socio-emotional kindergarten readiness, pre-literacy, pre-math. All of those learning skills and communication skills, I think are really important.

And learning how to communicate. The other thing we did a lot with Blue's Clues -- a little harder when it's an animated character -- is that expressiveness when you're asking a question, so it doesn't always have to be audible. It's also in the way you're looking and intently looking. We're not asking a question and looking away. [00:12:00] We're actually waiting for a response, or we look like we're interested. Those kinds of things we were able to model as well, which is also why, as a live action narrator on Princess Penelope, I do that too and ask questions of the book that I'm reading.

And that is based on a study -- the Whitehurst study -- that taught parents how to read to their kids with that level of pausing and that level of follow-up question, which is the same kind of methodology that we put into the shows.

Penny Williams: You said expressiveness, and it made me think about how a lot of times we're trying to teach our neurodivergent kids about nonverbal communication and nonverbal cues, and we do that sometimes through talking about their favorite characters or talking about something they just read or watched.

And so these programs can really help with that aspect as well, right? With talking about how the characters handle different things and talking about expressions and so forth. I love that.

Angela Santomero: Yeah, it's [00:13:00] a little easier, right? Daniel Tiger especially -- there was a disappointment episode. The first one, which is "when something seems bad, turn it around and find something good." And because he's an animated tiger, it is so much easier for the kids to kind of bring that in and realize how that affects them in their real life.

We've heard from a mom whose son was getting very upset every time the cheese on the pizza would kind of slide off. And he sang himself the strategy in order to put it back. And she couldn't figure out how to help with that level of needing things a certain way. And watching Daniel Tiger deal with it actually made a little bit of a connection.

And so I think that's so important because sometimes we don't talk about their fantasy and their play at the dinner table because we think it's trivial, or we think we want them to be focused in reality, but they're using it as a bridge to reality, especially at the preschool age. And sometimes as they get a little older, it's also [00:14:00] easier to watch animated shows than live action. So I think using it to our advantage is a great tool.

Penny Williams: There's so much packed into these programs, more than I even realized -- so much thought and leaning on research. As parents, we should watch some of this programming with our kids. And when we do that, we can also learn how to approach building these skills in different ways, how to take that pause, like you were saying.

Talk to us a little more about Princess Penelope and where the idea came from, and a little more about her purse of preposterous things. Such a tongue twister.

Angela Santomero: I love it. So basically I was trying to think about Blue's Clues in reverse. With Blue's Clues, we were looking for three things -- so what happens if we have those three things and they're preposterous [00:15:00] and silly, which creates my ability to write multiple episodes? 'Cause there'll always be new things in the purse.

And it can also be translated to somebody else. We're introducing a pirate character who will also have his little pouch of preposterous things. So there are other ways to look at this idea that we're having these three things. And it all started to percolate, and then because of the thirty years I've been doing this, I know the play areas, the fantasy areas, right? There's a little bit of a castle in medieval times that I'm leaning into. And what I would define as a princess, and how can she use her kindness to solve problems? So there are other areas of Storybook Meadow, the Mermaid Cove -- all these fun areas that I know kids will get excited about and that introduce new characters who will take you on those journeys through fairy tales and through [00:16:00] the stories that we're telling.

And this love of reading, which I didn't mention earlier -- reading for me was huge as a kid. It helped me so much. The idea that we're opening a book at the beginning of every episode and ending after each chapter of a story so that you have to think about what's gonna happen next -- that was another thing I really wanted to get across.

We know that reading is down right now and how hard it is to catch up. So how do we showcase the adventure inside reading, not just teaching the tools to read, which I did with Super Why!? This was more about the adventure inside a book.

Penny Williams: Talk to us a little about using humor and silliness and play in general in teaching our kids.

Angela Santomero: I love using expressive vocabulary in a different way. The idea that things are silly and comedic and surprising and curious [00:17:00] -- that's the word preposterous, right? When my oldest was three, she would have her little meltdowns, and I'd say, "Well, I guess it's your prerogative," and she was just -- you know. There she was, a two-and-a-half, three-year-old using the word prerogative. And I just think that once something makes sense to them, they own it, right?

So preposterous is gonna make sense to them over and over again. But silliness and joy and being surprising -- it's so much fun to get kids invested in something and to realize they can diffuse with humor, realize they can try something, and even if it's wrong, it's silly. Those kinds of things -- building resilience and confidence through humor and silliness -- that would happen.

So it's inherently in the show. In the books also, we add so many visuals to add to that experience because we also know it's cuddle time. I like to say it's cuddle TV when you're watching something, but when you're reading, it's cuddle time. And the idea that parents will be also leaning in -- [00:18:00] so we add even more of that in the books.

Penny Williams: I wanna talk a little more about imagination and how parents can lean more into it. We can provide the opportunity to read books like yours and watch programs like you're creating. What else can we do in our regular everyday life to really just lean into more imaginative play?

We have so many things we need to get done, right? And so many places we need to be, at a certain time. How do we take the pressure off and put this in?

Angela Santomero: Yeah, it's a great question. There are a couple things -- one would be in the play corner, right? What we've been told: take the old toys that they're not playing with, or items, dress-up items, and take them from the bottom and put them on top. So there's always [00:19:00] something new to look at, and that's gonna add the imagination. It's like you're resurfacing and reintroducing.

And then it is not being embarrassed to lean into the play. Like when we would go to Costco, we would call it a pirate treasure hunt for the snacks, right? 'Cause then they were invested in seeing the little samples around the store. They would go around the entire store with that excitement.

So those kinds of things -- leaning in to reinterpret a situation. Saying, "Let's go, let's go, let's go, we have to go to school," is never gonna work. As opposed to literally creating some sort of adventure to why we need to get there. You know, creating a story about the situations if we can. Look, we're all so busy with so much to do, but leaning into how they think will totally help [00:20:00] with everything.

We also did -- when my daughter was having nightmares, we put a little magical potion to do the no-nightmare thing. And it's that power of the self-fulfilling prophecy, that kind of thing where we're leaning into the play.

Penny Williams: And we can use it to help kids regulate, right? To regulate their nervous system. So much of these exercises that can regulate us could also be imaginative play. Is there any of that interwoven into Princess Penelope? Have you looked at regulation too?

Angela Santomero: Of course. I mean, for Daniel Tiger as an example, just 'cause it's something that people have probably seen -- the idea that "when you feel so mad that you wanna roar, [00:21:00] take a deep breath and count to four." And then he literally counts, and we see Mom Tiger do it too. Same thing for Penelope and her rituals and what she does and how she thinks about a problem and how she leans in to do it.

Taking a beat as opposed to reacting right away -- all of that helps to regulate and self-regulate because we're watching her do similar things in a heightened scenario. And we know from the research that when you're stressed, you're not gonna retain any of that information anyway, right?

So we might as well have them take a beat before they're gonna answer a question or solve a problem as the character as well, in addition to the interactive format, so that in the face of a fire-breathing dragon, she's still thinking about it. She's not just freaking out. And I feel like that's also really important to model, 'cause modeling is amazing, and we definitely do a lot of the modeling [00:22:00] of the good behaviors, but the interactivity is when I think those skills are actually gonna be as sticky as possible.

Penny Williams: I wanna talk about kindness more because I think we're really worried about that. I know I'm worried about that in the world right now. And we want to raise kids who are kind, who are empathetic to others. What advice do you have for parents, especially of the littles who are really coming up during this time and learning so much developmentally? How do we make kindness a natural part of who we are in our family culture and our life in general?

Angela Santomero: Yeah, I think part of it is the modeling. But it's also that we want them to be intrinsically motivated, right? We don't wanna be like, "Say thank you, say thank you." We want to tell a story of, "You know what Grandma did? She had to think about what you [00:23:00] would like. She had to go to the store. She had to use her money. She had to purchase that present. She came home, she wrapped it up." It's like going through all of the steps so that they understand and feel the gratefulness -- that's something we can do over time so that we're not skipping any of those cognitive beats.

And we do that in preschool TV, right? We really take very small steps to showcase all of the pieces of something so that you really understand it, and I think that that really helps.

But that sense of kindness is not weak. As a leader -- as someone who ran a show of eighty people full-time for ten years and then again twelve hundred people as I was in a business -- I always led with that vision and letting people in to the why behind everything. Why are we here? Why are we doing this? Why this show? Why is it important? Understanding that why helped me to have so many of the same people stay [00:24:00] forever, become friends, become passionate advocates for what we're doing. And I think it's really important to showcase that it's not weak -- it's actually successful to be kind and to see it come back.

And there's a true kindness loop, right? When you're kind and it comes back to you -- we can show that in the research as well.

Penny Williams: And it fuels us. It increases that energy. When you put it out there and it comes back, it's like, "Oh, I can receive that too, and the more I put out, the more it's gonna come back." It's amazing.

Angela Santomero: And those stories we tell -- when somebody is kind and did something that we didn't realize -- we will tell those stories for weeks.

Penny Williams: Yes, for sure. They really stick with us. And you mentioned slowing down, and I just wanted to highlight that that's really a good strategy -- not just for the littles, but even if we [00:25:00] have teenagers, young adults, tweens in middle school. Slowing things down, giving them space is a really powerful strategy to give them the room to develop these skills. It's never too late, right?

Angela Santomero: Never too late. And I have to say -- it hit me once when we were rushing to get the kids out for a family holiday, and I wouldn't even stop to take a family photo before going to an event. And I was like, "I'm an adult who talks about this all the time," and yet it was more important for me to get there at a certain time than it was to take two seconds to take a family photo, and then I don't have it.

You know, that reminder of what is the most important thing -- and once we let go of what other parents are gonna think, or do what's best for our family, [00:26:00] I think that's when the right decisions start to be made. And obviously we have to go through it in order to realize it, but I do think it makes a huge difference.

Penny Williams: So much good stuff. Talk to us about Princess Penelope and where everybody can find the books and the program and how they can be a part of that experience with their kids.

Angela Santomero: Oh, thank you. Princess Penelope is on YouTube. All kids are on YouTube right now, so I wanted to elevate that content. So that's where Princess Penelope is -- Princess Penelope Official on YouTube. Please subscribe. Tell me what you think. I'm @angelasclues on social media.

And then the books are wherever books are sold -- Amazon, Walmart, Target, all the places. I have two of the four books out now, and the other two will come out in November.

Penny Williams: Amazing. I just wanna thank you for the work that you've done in the world. It has impacted my own family. My own kids are still talking about Blue's Clues [00:27:00] and still just amazed by it, and so it's really powerful stuff, and I appreciate you, and I appreciate you being here and sharing some of your time and wisdom with us.

Angela Santomero: Thank you. Thank you so much for your interest.

Penny Williams: I will see everybody next time. Take good care.