Beautifully Complex, Episode 360
Giftedness and Identity, with Mark Talaga

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[00:00:12]

Penny Williams: Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, everyone. I'm really excited to have Mark Talaga here with me today to talk about giftedness and identity. I think this is such an important topic because so many gifted individuals struggle with how that shapes their identity, what does it mean for them — and especially our 2e kids, who have some hurdles and roadblocks sometimes to achieving in that way.

Mark, will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do, and then we'll jump into it?

[00:00:51]

Mark Talaga: Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I am the director and owner of the Center for Identity Potential. We're in the Metro Detroit area. We have an office in Chicago as well. And really, our main expertise is working with gifted neurodivergent, very asynchronous, complicated kids that maybe don't tend to react as well to more normative therapies.

[00:01:17]

Our goal is to really support families and the kids themselves in their development. And it's not about finding out what's wrong with them, but more about how we adjust for — people don't like this word, but — the deviance that they come into this world with, so that they can get what they need in life.

I am also the host of the Hopelessly Gifted podcast, where I talk about a lot of the work that we do and help parents understand on a more granular level what this giftedness thing is all about.

[00:01:49]

Penny Williams: I think as a parent we go, "Yay, my kid's gifted. They're smart. Hooray. This is a great thing," right? And we don't think about all the other things that come with that — the emotions, the identity, the sometimes struggle in school to live up to what the word gifted automatically creates.

I think often we think high achievement and giftedness have to equal each other. If a kid has a gifted label, they must be a high achiever, or they have the potential to be a high achiever. How would you define giftedness? Because I know that isn't correct.

[00:02:30]

Mark Talaga: Correct. Yeah, you nailed it. I don't like the word. It's not a perfect word, but no matter what word we ended up using for these kids, it'd probably be misused. The way we understand giftedness at the center is it's really just typical human development in some level of extreme. So it's not necessarily always related to intelligence.

You can be gifted athletically or physically. You can be gifted artistically. You can be gifted in the sense of moral justice and your sense of right and wrong. But if it's in some level of extreme — meaning it's just outside the norm, it is well beyond a child of that age in the normative — then yeah, that's what I would consider giftedness.

[00:03:13]

The flip side is that when you have these extremes on a person's developmental profile, you tend to have other areas that are maybe more in the norm or even delayed. And so you have these gaps all over how a person develops. We call that asynchronous development, and that's really what we're dealing with when we're dealing with giftedness typically.

[00:03:38]

Penny Williams: Yeah. And when we add in ADHD or autism or learning disabilities, then we create this very asynchronous profile — kind of all over the map. Like my own neurodivergent kid: verbal fluency was off the chart, but he has dysgraphia, so written expression was very, very low, very challenging, and that created a lot of misunderstanding with the adults in his world, especially at school.

I'm wondering — what should parents do to try to really understand where their kid is in a lot of different areas? Wouldn't that be beneficial in addressing the giftedness in a way that honors where the kid is in all areas, not just in that one area?

[00:04:30]

Mark Talaga: Right. You're looking at both the strengths that the kid has naturally, and then what we like to call in our work, their vulnerabilities — areas where they're particularly vulnerable around performance and achievement.

The issue is, if you root it in development, that means that almost any skill that a gifted child struggles with can become better — and in some cases, across the lifespan, it becomes their greatest strength. The thing that they kind of struggle with the most actually may be where they have an enormous amount of potential. But if it's not scaffolded right, if it's not supported in a way that's in line with how that kid learns and integrates it, it can be one of those things where the kid gets the message of, "Oh, well, you're never gonna be a writer 'cause writing's such a struggle for you."

[00:05:20]

When in reality they might be an excellent writer — but what it takes for them to produce is so much more complicated that their identity becomes, "Well, that's not me." And I like to challenge that. I tell parents: "Look at it more as — if it really bothers them that they're not good at something, that's typically a sign that they have a lot of potential in it, and it means it's more important to scaffold at that point."

[00:05:46]

Penny Williams: Yeah, so to support growth — to give them opportunities to grow in those areas if they're interested. And it does change as they get older too. So many things are different now with my kid as a young adult. Writing was so hard for him for a long time, but then he learned to really love creative writing and actually chose to do it sometimes when he was supposed to be doing classwork.

But we don't want to hold our kids back or try to define those things for them. How do we help them with identity? When we tell somebody something about them or we label it, it's going to start to shape their identity. We want it to be a positive thing, but I think sometimes it's a real struggle for kids who are gifted because they feel so out of sync.

[00:06:47]

Mark Talaga: Right. Let me back up a little bit. When we talk about identities in my work, we have multiple — dozens of identities that are expressions of who we are. I have an identity as a father. I have an identity as a counselor. I have an identity as a podcast host. But each and every one of those identities has to fit me on a very unique individual level so that I'm expressing who I really am through that work.

So the challenge is, we tell kids, "Oh, you're so smart. Oh, you're so good at this" — which is fine, it's a nice thing to say, it's not a bad thing. But if we don't have them understand that the identity of being smart is more complicated — that you're smart in a lot of contexts, but in other areas there are challenges based on how your brain develops, what you might need in relation to your processing, your understanding and experience of the world —

[00:07:50]

Then it's more like: if we're creating an identity around learning, we don't want to just say, "Oh, you're gifted." We want to say, "You're a gifted learner who has ADHD and is struggling with some level of processing. But when you get what you need, you really start to get a sense of who you really are and what you're really capable of."

So it's more about running toward how complicated it is rather than trying to simplify everything with a label.

[00:08:16]

Penny Williams: Yeah. And I think often we label them as the smart one — and without that other layer you were just describing, that becomes an identity they have to live up to. And I would imagine perfectionism becomes a thing, and can be a struggle. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

[00:08:43]

Mark Talaga: Oh, absolutely. If they have this expectation of themselves that smart equals fast, or smart equals smart across all aspects of life, then yes, you start to have certain things pop up. Perfectionism — a lot of people try to treat it like a personality trait. "Oh, you're just a perfectionist." And I honestly don't hate the word. There are certain people in life I want to be perfect, like the people building the planes that I'm flying on. Go ahead and be perfect.

[00:09:23]

For some kids, some level of perfection desire is perfectly fine. However, the way I typically tend to view it is more of a defense mechanism. They are relying on perfectionism or procrastination as a way to not face the reality of where their struggle might be on whatever it is they're facing.

For some people, they really struggle with how to initiate. ADHD executive dysfunction makes starting something very difficult. And so they might rely on "Oh, I'm a procrastinator," rather than "I'm struggling with this skill of initiation."

[00:09:48]

Or maybe they actually don't know how to do what it is they're doing. They have a vision in their head, but they don't have a step-by-step process or framework to finish whatever it is — and so they say, "Well, I just want it to be perfect," rather than, "I don't know how to actually get there. I don't know the step-by-step micro level of what I need to do."

[00:10:21]

Penny Williams: Yeah, it's striking me too that there's often anxiety with perfectionism. I'm anxious to fail. I'm anxious to not live up to the ideas people have of me — these standards that come with being "the smart one." There can be a lot of fear in that. How do we help kids with that?

[00:10:47]

Mark Talaga: Or the other idea — there can also be a fear of success. What if I do well? Then what's expected of me? Now I have to go to another level of skill and development, and I have to manage more. What happens if I do start making friends? How do I do that?

So there's anxiety in both directions. And I like parents to first understand that anxiety, for the most part, is really a sign that there's a lack of skill somewhere. We're less anxious when we know how to do something.

[00:11:28]

Now, I don't want to dismiss psychiatric anxiety that is in our genetics or that gets so severe it requires treatment. I'm not asking you to ignore it and say, "Well, get your skills better, kid." Sometimes you have to bring the anxiety down in order to focus on the root issue. But it's typically: I'm facing something I don't know how to manage, or I don't have the skill set or the framework for how to proceed.

Even how a child wants to manage everybody's expectations — but they don't know how to verbalize that, they don't know how to say how difficult it is for them to perform at a certain level — so they just, behaviorally, start to shut down. Or for some people, they overcompensate and burn the candle at both ends.

[00:12:05]

We want parents to be able to understand that anxiety in your kid is some level of struggle with something, and we want to be very curious about exploring everything in that kid's life about where they might be feeling like they're struggling to make something happen.

[00:12:22]

Penny Williams: Do you think gifted kids struggle with the idea of living up to their potential? I think adults often use that word when we shouldn't. I kind of hate it, to be honest. Do you think they're internalizing that, that some of their identity is shaped by that fear?

[00:12:46]

Mark Talaga: A thousand percent. In our practice, we don't say you reach your potential — we say you activate it. And you activate potential when you're living in identities that fit, when you're expressing yourself through identities that fit. That's when you start to want to do more, or you feel motivated, or you feel like, "I want to take on another challenge" or "I feel okay with myself."

But a lot of times, kids ascribe the normative identity to themselves. "Well, that's what I'm supposed to be," or "This is how smart people are supposed to be," rather than finding what it really means for that kid.

[00:13:26]

I can't tell you how many times kids in my sessions say, "I hate it when my parents tell me I'm smart or that I have a lot of potential." Because what they hear it as is a critique. Like, "I'm doing something wrong, and they're saying they see it within me."

And what I try to do with that kid is get them to own how much it bothers them — keeping it off the parents. They may be internalizing it from the parents, and that definitely happens. But it's more their own recognition: I know I have something within me that's big, and I want to do something with it, and I feel like I could be great. But I don't know the way, I don't know the path — and it gets so overwhelming that I just tend to shut down or dismiss the idea that I have giftedness in me.

[00:14:19]

Penny Williams: Yeah. And that is kind of the flip side too of fearing failure — disengaging, not trying. I think that happens a lot, and it probably drives the adults in their lives crazy, because it looks like so much potential going untapped.

What can we do to help kids who are saying, "That's too much pressure. That's too much work. I'm going to do the opposite"?

[00:14:57]

Mark Talaga: I like to rely on this old phrase — I don't remember the origin of it — but it's basically this: the normative way of thinking about it is, if they try harder, they'll do better. But it's really the opposite: if they do better, they'll try harder.

When you have a kid who is avoidant around certain tasks, start with the assumption that maybe it's not that they won't — but maybe they can't. Even as smart as they are, they may really be struggling with some aspect of this, whether it's the emotional regulation piece or the actual skill sets involved. And you want to find ways to help them understand that it's harder for them than they realize.

[00:15:45]

It's not that they don't want to do something. It's that they're struggling with how difficult it might be. And trying to align with them first — starting to become aware together — because parents get caught in "just do it," which is hard for parents to step back from and say, "I don't need to have expectation on this kid. I don't need to push them. But what I am going to reflect is that this might be a lot harder for them than I realize."

[00:16:06]

A kid might dismiss that and say, "No, it's not that hard." And you can say, "Well, isn't that interesting? Because as much as you said that's something you want in your life, your ability to get started has been such a challenge. And I'm starting to think maybe it's harder than even you think."

Trying to keep it on the child's own understanding — oh, is that what's going on with me? — just to have them think about it a little differently.

It's a process. It's going to be a slow and steady process of evaluating what the real challenges are, where support needs to be, and what the child needs to understand about themselves.

[00:16:55]

Penny Williams: Yeah, totally. Can you provide some examples of language parents can use to talk about giftedness without reinforcing a performance-based identity — without talking about potential and reaching their potential?

[00:17:26]

Mark Talaga: I always like to frame it in terms of asynchronous development. It's like, look, there are parts of you that have grown at an accelerated rate. There are parts of you that are just kind of in the norm. But compared to where you're at over here, it's a gap. And explaining to them almost the neurology — the neurophysiology — that can happen with being a gifted person.

What I've found is that most kids like to talk about it in that way. They realize it's not psychological, it's not about the way they're thinking about things — it's more about their own gifted nature. And helping them understand that nothing is permanent. You are not dealt a hand, and that's it for the rest of your life.

[00:18:13]

Are there things you want to work on? Then you might need more support than you're willing to take on. And a lot of these gifted kids have a little bit of an ego on them — maybe from outside sources, maybe just inherent. And I don't mind a little bit of ego. That'll take you far in life. But when it gets so big that they won't accept help, or "I don't need to do things differently, I'm just fine" — without facing the reality of what they're really up against — you might need to enlist a little extra help.

[00:18:48]

Find somebody who can help navigate and be another person in that kid's life who helps them see what the parents are already picking up on. Because hearing it from another source is sometimes helpful.

What I guess I'm trying to say is: it's okay to really talk about it at a more complicated level than you think. Don't baby it down for them.

[00:19:14]

Like, they kind of are like, "Ugh," when you do that. So almost be direct. And if you're like, "I don't know what asynchronous development means, I don't even understand it" — then yeah, you might have a little research to do as a parent. Because all behavior is human behavior. We're not like "human beings" and then "gifted kids." It's all humanity. We're just trying to help them understand what it looks like when humanity happens in extremes — that it can come across as quirky or weird, or you feel like an alien.

[00:19:46]

Penny Williams: Yeah. And every human is asynchronous in some way, right?

Mark Talaga: Boom. Nailed it.

Penny Williams: So there's no perfectly aligned person. We all have strengths and weaknesses. We all have differences. And I think that can help too.

But yeah — backing off the pressure. We talk so much here on this podcast about pressure and what it does to nervous systems and kids, and how society tells us that's what we should do as adults to get a kid motivated. And yet we're actually making it harder for them to do the things we want them to do.

[00:20:25]

There's so much pressure in this idea that you're gifted. We tend to amplify that pressure, and that can't be helpful. It just can't.

[00:20:40]

Mark Talaga: It's not. And the thing is, it's a bit of a trap. The kids kind of weirdly reinforce the parents wanting to go a little behavioral too quickly, because they're trying to make it seem like, "No, it's just the way you're asking me," or "It's just this way." So it's a dynamic thing — it's not all the parents doing it wrong, or all the kid being this poor little victim. It's a dynamic issue. You have to look at how that dynamic plays out and be a little more savvy when the child tries to deflect away from the core challenge, and how you as a parent bring it back.

[00:21:19]

I like what you said — we all have asynchrony. It's 100% correct. Everybody has gaps in their profile. It's just a matter of the degree and how intense it can get.

One of the examples I try to share with parents: I had a kid I worked with, years ago, who was masterful at physics. He visited every museum in the country, loved physics, was a whiz at it. He could not tell you his home address — and he was a freshman in high school. That's how asynchrony can look. And the school's like, "Well, this kid's not that smart. We shouldn't be accelerating him." And I'm like, "Well, it's both." He needs crazy amounts of support in areas like writing and remembering and just the basics. And also, maybe a little grace — like, he said he forgot how to spell his name, but who cares? Is that really what we're going to highlight? And at the same time, where do we challenge him appropriately and help him excel?

[00:22:16]

Because it's so complicated, schools aren't built for it. Nobody's trained in it, and it falls on the parents to have to advocate. It's tough. So for all you gifted parents out there — I see you. It's hard.

[00:22:36]

Penny Williams: Our kids can't have both, right? We can't support both. You have to choose a track. You choose giftedness or you choose special ed support, but you can't have both. And I'm like, "But the law says..." But they're not equipped.

[00:22:51]

And here in my area, the common thinking around giftedness is more volume of work — which my kid could not keep up with. And the worst years, the worst classes, were the gifted ones, because there was so much more pressure, so much more volume that he just didn't have the processing speed to keep up with. And so we had to choose the other track, and his giftedness was not nurtured in school. He didn't have those challenges around problem-solving and creativity and things that he really loved.

[00:23:34]

Yes, there's the law, and yes, our kids have rights. But we live in an imperfect world. And I coach so many parents who say, "My kid is gifted and they deserve to have that nurtured as well" — and they do. But also, what's going to work for your kid? In our reality, the way giftedness was treated here, it was not going to work for my kid. And that's a hard choice. That's disappointing. That's crushing.

[00:24:12]

Mark Talaga: It's deflating. And yes, it puts a kid in a state of identity panic — "What does this mean about me?" And it is hard to keep that child grounded in the idea of: "Remember, the world is not built for you. The world is built for the norm. It's built for the average, and there are reasons for that. It makes sense on some level why it's built that way. But it means this kind of stuff can happen, and what I don't want you to do is take it as something wrong with you. It's more that there is not a fit happening, and what we're going to work on together as a family is finding that fit — where we try a little bit better every time."

[00:24:55]

And that fit may change from year to year, because again, these issues are developmental in nature. They will shift. They will change. You will have a developmental leap from time to time, as well as the gaps and the struggles.

It's a heavy weight to bear. And my passion in life is to train schools and help them understand: when you embrace the complexity, not only does it help that kid and others like them, but it also bolsters your skill set so that when you bring it back into the normative environment, you're even better there. It lifts all boats. It's just a matter of breaking out of the system that maybe needs to be restructured.

[00:25:41]

Penny Williams: And there are ways as parents to foster that gifted interest. We found science camps, and the local university here did a weekend class thing for gifted kids for years — we would do that twice a year. So there are ways. But it's disappointing that they can't get exactly what they need in all aspects.

As complex as they are, they still deserve that.

[00:26:07]

I'm really glad we were able to talk about helping them shape the right identity around giftedness — to not feel like it's just this really high bar they have to meet, and there's this potential that comes with it that they have to meet. And all these ideas of perfectionism. I love busting some of those myths and helping parents to really nurture what their kids actually need from them.

[00:26:42]

Mark, tell everybody where they can find you online so they can learn more about your work.

Mark Talaga: Absolutely. If you're interested in our center and the kind of work we do there, you can visit us at centerforidentitypotential.com. We meet with clients all over the country — we're able to do that because we don't take insurance, so just a little FYI there. But the idea is we're there to support you in whatever way is helpful to you, and if we can't, we'll find somebody that can.

[00:27:12]

You can also listen to my podcast, Hopelessly Gifted, on Apple Podcasts and Spotify — just search that up and you'll find it. It does a deeper dive into some of the issues that are pretty specific to gifted kids.

[00:27:30]

Penny Williams: And I'll link all of that up in the show notes at parentingadhdandautism.com. Thanks again, Mark, for sharing some of your time and your wisdom and your passion for giftedness. It shines through, and I really appreciate the work that you're doing.

Mark Talaga: Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Penny Williams: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care.