367: Systems that Work with the Brain

with Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.

Listen on Apple Podcasts  |  Spreaker  |  Spotify  |  iHeart Radio

Angela Kingdon has a system for everything, and for years it never occurred to her that not everyone wants that.

Angela is the founder of the Autistic Culture Podcast Network, home to more than thirty shows hosted by autistic and AuDHD creators. She built it after her own burnout, the kind that came after learning to mask so well that she finally got the friends, the relationships, and the career she had always wanted, and then lost all the capacity to keep holding it together. Podcasts were what brought her back.

In this episode, we talk about what it really means to build systems that work with the individual’s brain instead of against it, and why that is so much bigger than color coded bins and a label maker. Angela walks through her own sensory systems, the loop earplugs she keeps in the car, the three scarves she carries because she cannot regulate her own body temperature, and then we get into the part every parent needs to hear: what happens when the systems we build for our kids turn out to be our systems, dressed up as help.

Angela shares the moment she realized her son’s messy piles of clothes were a system she simply had not respected, and how a shift she calls sun parenting to moon parenting changed the way she saw his choices. We talk about the word system itself, and why sometimes the fastest way to get your kid on board is to never call it that.

This is a conversation about control, about grief, and about the relief that comes when you finally understand the goal was never to get your kid to do things your way. It was to help them find their own.

Angela Kingdon will tell you, without a trace of embarrassment, that she keeps a kit of loop earplugs and lightly tinted sunglasses in her car so she is never caught off guard by the hum of fluorescent lights at the library. She keeps three scarves and a zip up sweatshirt with her at all times because her body cannot regulate its own temperature, and layering is the only thing that works. She calls these her systems, and building them is, for her, one of the great joys of being autistic.

Her son calls them something else entirely. Do not give me one more system.

That gap, between a parent who finds comfort in structure and a kid who feels crushed by it, is where this conversation lives. Angela runs the Autistic Culture Podcast Network, more than thirty shows hosted by autistic and AuDHD creators, built after her own burnout nearly took her out. She had spent years so good at masking, thanks to cognitive behavioral therapy, that she finally had the friends, the career, and the relationship she had always wanted. Then she lost the capacity to keep any of it running. Podcasts, interestingly, were what brought her back.

Out of that experience came what she calls the Ten Pillars of Autistic Culture, one of which she names predictably comforting. It is the reason she wore the same sweater every day of tenth grade, in every color the store carried, and the reason Andy Warhol died with fifty pairs of the same green underwear. Eliminating a decision is not a limitation. It is relief. Why get up every morning and negotiate an outfit when you could just remove that problem from your day entirely?

But the deeper lesson in this episode is about what happens when a parent’s systems get handed down as if they are universal. Angela describes it plainly: when her son was a baby, she was his sun, and his whole world revolved around her. As he moved through adolescence, she needed to become his moon, there to light the way but no longer the center of gravity. She had labeled every bin in his room with a label maker. She had color coded his toys. And none of it worked, because he needed to see everything out, not tucked away. His floor had two piles of clothes that looked identical to her and meant something completely different to him. That was not chaos. That was his system. She just had not respected it as one.

The turning point came in an unexpected place: a heavily scheduled fiftieth birthday trip to the Amalfi Coast that Angela had planned down to the hour, because she believes you should get your money’s worth out of every vacation day. Her son wanted to do one thing a day, if that. So she let go of the plan once they reached the coast, and what followed was serendipity she could not have scheduled, conversations that only happen when nobody is rushing to the next activity, a kid who spontaneously decided he could speak Italian and simply started trying.

Angela’s advice for parents is not to abandon your own systems. It is to get curious about your kid’s, especially the ones that do not look like systems at all. Ask what would make this easier for you. Notice what they are already doing to cope, even if they would never call it that. And build in a rule that everything gets to change, because their needs will, and so will yours.

3 Key Takeaways
01

A system only works if it is chosen. What looks like resistance in your kid is often a reaction to a system, or even a word, that was imposed rather than built with them. Ask what would make this easier for them, and be ready to hear an answer you would not have picked yourself.

02

Sameness is not a red flag, it is relief. Wearing the same clothes, eating the same foods, sticking to the same routine is not something to correct out of your child. It is often the exact strategy that frees up their nervous system to handle everything else that day requires.

03

Control what you can, let go of the rest. You are not going to change the school system or the tax code today, but you likely have more influence than you think over the small, daily frictions in your own home. Find the one you can actually tame.

What You’ll Learn

What it really means to build a system that works with a neurodivergent brain instead of against it, and why it goes far beyond bins and labels

Why sameness in food, clothing, and routine is not something to worry about, but a legitimate and often necessary form of self regulation

How the shift from sun parenting to moon parenting can help you recognize your child’s own systems instead of overriding them with yours

Why the word system itself can be the very thing your kid resists, and how reframing it can lower the temperature

How building iteration into your routines, reviewing what is working every few months, keeps systems useful instead of rigid

My Guest

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.

Dr. Angela Kingdon is a late-diagnosed Autistic author, speaker, entrepreneur, and Founder and Executive Director of the Autistic Culture Institute. She holds a PhD in Communications and an MSc in Psychology with Distinction, and she has spent more than 25 years building systems across publishing, SaaS, digital media, live events, education, and social impact. Before founding the Institute, Angela built and led a publishing company that generated more than $50 million in revenue.

Angela hosts The Autistic Culture Podcast, which has reached more than 1 million downloads, and co-founded the Autistic Culture Podcast Network, the world’s first Autistic-led podcast network. Her work reframes autism as culture rather than deficit, centering Autistic voice, creativity, leadership, and ownership. She speaks on late diagnosis, neurodiversity, creator co-ops, shared-risk media models, and building organizations that work with human nervous systems instead of against them.

Resources

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Autistic Culture Podcast Network: autisticculturepodcastnetwork.com

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Transcript

Beautifully Complex Podcast
367 Systems that Work with the Brain, with Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.

Penny Williams: Welcome back, everyone. I am really thrilled and excited to have with me today Dr. Angela Kingdon to talk about ADHD, autism, AuDHD, how all of these experiences sometimes intertwine, and how we can look at systems that work with the neurodivergent brain instead of working against it. So Angela, welcome. Will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Sure, absolutely. Thanks for having me here, first of all. Longtime listener, first-time caller. I love this show. It's been in my rotation of amazingly helpful podcasts. So I run a podcast network called the Autistic Culture Podcast Network, and I run the network really because podcasts saved my life.

About five years ago, I hit burnout. I had actually been diagnosed, so my diagnosis story is the flip of everyone else's, I think. I had a life that was weirdly and coincidentally perfectly set up for my neurodivergent quirks. And then I got diagnosed. I was not somebody that has traditionally female autism, or who masks well. I actually wasn't very good at masking at all, and that created other problems in my life. But when I got diagnosed, I was sent to cognitive behavioral therapy, and I learned how to mask for the first time in my life. And it was the first time in my life I had friends. It was the first time in my life I had a relationship.

I went out. I had a super successful career. I weirdly became famous on the internet, and then I burned out. So I learned how to mask, CBT taught me how to mask, and then I got an A in it. So I didn't even know it was an option, and I was like, "Wow, this is how you play this game?" And then I burned out absolutely spectacularly.

And during my burnout, the only thing I could do was listen to podcasts, and that became my special interest. That became my lifeline. Before, I was a reader, and I lost my ability to read. I somehow couldn't listen to audiobooks either, there was grief associated with it somehow. But podcasts, which just felt like talking to a friend, saved my life, and I came back and started a podcast, and then started two more, and then helped a bunch of people with their podcasts.

And now we have, I think, 33 podcasts that are either live or in various states of production. It's pretty exciting because I do think we need to hear from all different voices, you know? We all need different tools, and so having a variety of ages and life stages and experiences and chronic conditions and different types of kids that we're dealing with, I think that is, if you find the podcast at the right time, it can just be really helpful. So hopefully we'll give some people some tips today.

Penny Williams: Yeah. And so your podcast network, if I understand, all the podcasts are hosted by autistic individuals. Is that right?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yep. Yeah, I would say most are probably AuDHD, or I like what you say, beautifully complex. We've got a little bit of everything. But yeah, it is based on the idea that while we have medical issues, we are not a medical issue, we are a culture.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. Love that. Just a neurotype, right?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah, just a neurotype, just a different operating system.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. Just a completely different operating system, right?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah, stuck in this world where we're expected to operate like a PC, and we're out here operating like a Unix system or something.

Penny Williams: Yeah. I think that leads right into this conversation about systems too. Like, this world is full of systems, societal systems, cultural systems, all of these different entities that we ask our kids, we ask adults, to not just function in, but succeed in, right? We want everyone to succeed in these systems, and they don't work for everyone. They weren't made for everyone. Do you want to define, when you talk about systems and systems that do work with the brain, what does that word mean to you? What are we really talking about there?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Well, because we live in the world, there are systems that we have no control of, like the way you get a driver's license or the way you get a high school diploma. There are certain systems, I guess we can vote, but we're probably not, in our lifetime, going to change the way the process to get a library book out works. If you don't like the fluorescent lights in the library, there's not a whole lot you're going to do to change the library. And so my focus is on what are the ways that we do control the way we operate that we can create for us.

So for instance, just what I mean by system might be, I love to go to the library, which is true. I do not like the lights in the library and the hum of the lights in the library. And so when I go to a library, I might wear, I have a pair of sunglasses that are just lightly tinted, so I might wear my lightly tinted prescription glasses, and I would definitely wear my loop earplugs. So my system, this is a little bit expensive, not everybody could necessarily do this, but my system is I always keep a pair of loops in the car.

Actually, the way that happened was I lost a pair, and then I bought another pair, and then I had an extra.

Penny Williams: And then you found them.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So I always keep an extra pair of loops in the car. I always keep sunglasses in the car. I have a little kit. I always keep a stim toy, and I have a little kit of things that I have in my house, I have in my car, I have in my purse.

And I know my process when I'm going into a place like a grocery store or the library is to be over-prepared. I literally have such an inability to control my body temperature. Like, that's just me, right? I know that about me. So I have three scarves with me. I have a zip-up sweatshirt, and then I'm always wearing one or two layers. So I can take off clothes or put on clothes. I can wish that my body had the ability to self-regulate, but it doesn't. I could wish that I never needed to leave my house, and I do try and avoid leaving my house. I still can't regulate my body temperature in my house. But I need to create a system, or a way of operating, that works this way 100% of the time, that's going to make all the other systems I have no control of more manageable.

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: That's how I think of it. And for me, because I am autistic, I find great relief and comfort creating new systems. So I'll think of something, I'll be like, "God, I wish I had something," earphones in every room. And then I will find the right container, I will find the right earphones, I will set up everything, because I love building systems.

But I also recognize that is not always a comforting word to everyone. My son is AuDHD, and he feels like there's so many systems he has to comply with all day long. Do not give me one more system. And I'll give you my little hack for that: the system, for him, is to reduce the number of systems. That is a system.

So it's really identifying what works for you now, creating space for that to change, and having the process to accommodate yourself as much as possible. That's really it. So it's environmental, but it's also psychological, I think, to be like, I am allowed to not like the lights at the library. I'm also allowed to not complain about it, because complaining is also dysregulating for me.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And those around you.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah, for sure. Especially the—

Penny Williams: As parents know.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: My goodness. Yes, yes, yes.

Penny Williams: Yeah. And so I'm thinking about, like—

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Accommodate myself, that's the other thing, is I can watch my son, who would never want to call it a system, develop a system.

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: He had the most elaborate system for studying for his SATs, and he got very close to a perfect score on his SATs. He got under 1,000, I think, on his PSATs, something like 860. And then he developed this elaborate system to master it. It just became his monotropic focus. But if I called it a system, oh my God—

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: See, that's the system, is don't call it a system. "Mom, why do you have to have a system for everything?"

Penny Williams: Yeah. And that brings up a point that I learned through the years of my own parenting, which is, sometimes we just have to call things something different. If our kids are resistant, it isn't always the actual thing they're resisting. Sometimes it's the language and the packaging that we're putting it in that doesn't feel right for them. So why don't we ask them what to call it? Why don't we ask them, "What's going to work for you, and what do you want to call it?" And just being open—

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: But you can see how certain words or terms would be dysregulating.

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And so that is a really big part of it, is what makes this easy for me? What would make this easier for me? So, I charge my phone with a USB-C charger, the new one, and my microphone also uses a USB-C charger. And one of the things that drives me crazy are cables. And so I don't leave my microphone out, but I podcast a lot, as you could imagine, since it's my career. And so every time I pulled my microphone out of the drawer of cables, it would be like untangling a necklace, and then I would be running late because I was untangling the necklace. And so I would try and calm myself down and get into podcasting mode. And then I made the simplest little change, which is: I unplug my phone and use that same USB-C to plug in instead. I don't have to use the cable that came with the microphone. I can just use any USB. And I know that's really small, and to me, when I call that a system, I have a system for getting my microphone out and I have simplified my system.

Okay, or you could just call it, I use the same cable, like, it's a—

Penny Williams: Or a—

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Whatever works for you.

Penny Williams: Right. Like, yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: It's like a little strategy. It's a little tool. It's a little hack. It's whatever you want to call it. It's good. How can you make your life easier? Because there's so many things you aren't, you are not going to change the US tax code. Somebody might. It won't be you and it won't be today. There's so many things you're going to have no control of. What can you tame? What beast can you tame today?

Penny Williams: Yeah. Where does your influence lie? And we talk so much about that here with parents, when I'm coaching parents. We can worry about a whole lot of things, and we're going to, we're parents. But if we can't influence those things we're worrying about, we're causing ourselves distress and the people around us distress, and nothing is changing. So how can we pivot to work on what we can work on, right? What can we control? It's a lot of work I've been doing with my own therapist, too, because as she said in our first conversation with each other, "You have some control issues."

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Hmm, do I now?

Penny Williams: "You don't say."

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yep.

Penny Williams: I've learned to think about, when I'm feeling dysregulated because I don't have control, what thing can I do that gives me some control? And that can be in parenting, that can be personally, right? It can be in a lot of ways. But that really does provide relief to our nervous system, to find something that we can control when we feel like we need that and we don't have it.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: One of the premises underneath the Autistic Culture Network is something that I call the 10 Pillars of Autistic Culture. And so I looked at autistic traits through a lens like, so the guy who did the original research, his name is Geert Hofstede. And when you get sent overseas, either with your company or with the government, there's a Hofstede training in that country's customs and mannerisms. So if you're going to South America and the party's at 8:00, show up at 9:00. If you're going to a party in Germany and the party's at 8:00, show up at 7:30. What are all the different cultural differences that you need to know in order to be successful in business or diplomacy overseas? So I took that same framework and applied it to autistic people.

And pillar number eight, and I do think in many ways slightly differently, but this applies to ADHD people and then also slightly differently for OCD, but pillar number eight I call predictably comforting.

Penny Williams: Hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: The idea behind it is why we often eat the same foods, and people are like, "Aren't you sick of those butter noodles?" No, I am not. Or why we wear the same clothes. When Andy Warhol, who was autistic, died, they found 50 pairs of the same green underwear. When Stephen Sondheim died, who was also autistic, they found 50 boxes of Blackwing pencils. If you want to know the best pencil in the world, it's the Blackwing. They canceled it. Stephen Sondheim had a meltdown. He bought the whole factory, and then they brought it back very recently. They're really good. If you go to museums, they'll often sell Blackwing pencils.

So we find something that is the best for us, and we're like, "Why would I get up every morning and put out a different pair of underwear, some might be comfortable, some might not, if I could just get 20 of the exact same underwear and eliminate that?" That's one less thing.

So I remember weirdly having shame about that. I think there was, I was really, really into, I'm going to date myself, but do you remember the sweaters from The Limited Express? They were like these V-neck sweaters with a wide cable. And I loved this sweater, and I remember having this thought in high school, "I could wear this sweater every day. This sweater with leggings, this sweater with a belt around it. I'll get some that are bigger than others." And I literally bought every single color at The Limited Express of this sweater, and it was all I wore. I think this was sophomore year of high school or something. And people made fun of me. They were like, "Literally, is that the only thing you wear?" And the answer is, yes, it is. Do you know how many other problems I have in my life? I am 15 years old. I'm going to eliminate not liking my outfit. I like my outfit every day. I'm comfortable in my outfit every day. Sometimes I wear it backwards with the V in the back. Sometimes I wear it with a miniskirt. I have eliminated the problem of not liking my outfits by wearing the same outfit.

Penny Williams: Yeah. I do the same thing sometimes if I'm like, "Ooh, I feel like I look good in this, I feel good in this. Is there another color?"

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah.

Penny Williams: "Do I have two?" Right? Like, why not?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And then my question is, why do we feel guilt and shame about this?

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And I'm not saying everyone has to do it. If you get joy from wearing a different thing every day, or fashion is your interest, go crazy. But my mission of finding systems that work with you is freeing you from the pressure to do things other people's way, their way. The bank has a way for you to get a bank account that you're not going to change. But what you wear when you go to the bank, you're in control of that. Why give up that autonomy? I guess it's like, I'm not a PDA-er, but maybe this is why I'm not a PDA-er, because I'm so militant about identifying where do I have control and then taking it all the way. So then I'm not mad when somebody, I'm sometimes mad, but I'm not as mad when somebody makes me follow a process I might not want, because I'm not imposing it on myself.

Penny Williams: Mm. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about parenting and how we help our kids figure out what systems work for them. Because as parents, we have an idea of what's going to work, what works for us maybe, and we want to impose that, right? Well, a notebook for every class worked for me, so I'm going to get a notebook for every class for you. Or the teacher says this is the stuff you need for each class, and so that's what we're going to do. Which I learned early on I could challenge. I could do it differently. It was okay.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Wild, wild.

Penny Williams: How do we lean into their way and not ours, or what somebody else is trying to impose? How do we figure that out?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: It's such a great question, and that is so much a part of the journey of parenting.

Penny Williams: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: I guess, especially if we're thinking about older kids, like puberty, up until 25. I heard this thing once as my kid was going into high school that really guided that journey for me, which was: when your kid is a baby, or even when you're pregnant, and as they're growing up, you are their sun. Their whole world revolves around you. If you're going to the bank, they go to the bank. If you're going to a haircut, they go to a haircut. If you want a purple baby carrier, they get a purple baby carrier. And as they transition through puberty, you become their moon. You light them in the dark.

So that was the shift that, for me, really helped. So earlier on, when they're little, I think it was very obvious to me, like, we're going to do this my way. I'm excited about systems, so we'll have lots of them. I'm going to color code your toys. I had all those Ikea Kallax, you know, the big squares. The whole room was the squares. I have labels. I had a little P-Touch. I labeled everything.

Penny Williams: Me too.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: This did not work for my ADHD child, but it never even occurred to me because I thought it was my room. When the baby was inside me, he was mine, right? Then he came out and I'm doing everything, and he's mine. But there's a day where he's his, and he's not mine, and they don't tell you. They don't announce it. And so I think that transition, that sun to moon parenting transition, I think when they're little and your systems are yours and you have to manage the day, and you try and impose those systems, at some point when you notice they're not working—

Penny Williams: Hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: I wish I caught that sooner, because I didn't create any space to even see my kid's way.

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So now I can see, I was excited about all the Kallax cubes, but the reason things weren't getting put away with the labels was that's not how he would organize. It wasn't exciting. When I saw everything put away, it looked really pretty to me.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Now my child has that form of organization which I need to respect, because it really is, he's quite organized. He has to see everything. You know that strategy of taking the doors off the cabinets?

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: That is not my strategy, but that is definitely his strategy.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And so, I don't know why I want to use the word grief so much. Parenting is about grief for me. But—

Penny Williams: It is though.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: It is. Because my systems are so good. Why didn't I have the kid that was so excited? I alphabetize and I color code and I match by size. I can line up anything. And my child needs, luckily he had a really big room, which is great. It just was kind of a weird long, skinny room, but it was really big. And now I realize what I should have had are multiple surfaces at different heights where he could leave everything out. I wanted to put everything away—

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And it made him so dysregulated, because then he didn't have his toys.

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So as I heard that piece of that sun, moon advice, I wish I could remember her name, she's a poet who helps when your kid is going to college, but I just found her on Facebook and she's amazing. And as I found that, I realized I needed to look for where he had systems that I might not have been honoring. The word that came up, now this is partly because I have a son maybe, but the word that came up was that he was feeling disrespected.

Penny Williams: Hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: I now think he was right, because I thought his system, your system is you're going to have two piles of clothes on the floor that look the same to me, and you're going to know one pile is dirty and one pile is clean, that's the system? I bought very nice hangers, they're color-coded. I wasn't honoring, I was very disrespectful, so I couldn't see them as systems.

So that's the thing I would say now, and I've gotten better at it. He's a college junior now, so it's easier because he doesn't live with me, the mess isn't there. But obviously they live in your house, they have to follow your rules. But maybe they do have a system and you just need to look harder.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm. Or ask.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Or ask. I love your idea of asking. I don't know if that's, because I know his answer to everything, and I don't know if this is a PDA-er thing, but literally anything the answer was, "I don't know," with an eye roll. So I think I can do it. "Ugh, I don't know."

Penny Williams: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So that wasn't helpful. I like that you're saying ask. Maybe if I asked earlier, because maybe "I don't know" meant you're not going to listen to me anyway, so I'm not going to spend cycles on this.

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: But to my credit, I just didn't see it. I didn't see it. I was like, "But my way's so good."

Penny Williams: And we're taught that there are specific ways to do things. Culturally, we're taught that you need to put your stuff away, that we don't want to see clutter. Now, I'm like you, if everything isn't, I even have this symmetrical need that is mind-blowing. I can't get one hand wet and not get the other hand wet. And so I need things so organized and put away, but I don't have that kid, and I don't have anyone in my household actually that's like that but me. And so it was very hard to shift this, where do we draw the line between each person's needs? My nervous system needs it to be all put away. Their nervous system needs it to be in the way that works for them, right? And so who sort of wins in those situations? And I think a lot of times it needs to be our kids because they're—

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah.

Penny Williams: And we need to help them with that struggle. We need to help them figure out their systems, or whatever they're going to call them, so that they can be successful, right?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: I think the opportunity, because in theory we're older than them, so I think the growth opportunity, and I have had some moments of great joy in the discovery, is being curious about maybe, as crazy as it sounds, maybe this way could work for me—

Penny Williams: Hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Right? So maybe throwing my clothes on the floor could work. Like that sounds crazy, it literally is dysregulating, it's so crazy making. But if I can shift my thinking into curiosity and be like, "But what if I just embrace that possibility?" It doesn't mean I'm going to do it, but can I walk a mile in somebody else's, can I inhabit who would I be if that was comforting?

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And then obviously if your pile is in my living room, now I'm going to draw a boundary. But if it's in your room, maybe I don't have to say, "Clean up your room." Maybe I don't. The glasses, all of my glasses left my kitchen and were in my child's room. How could there be that many drinking glasses? I don't know.

Penny Williams: Yep.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And so, for me, the choice I made, this is not every parent's choice, but for me, I was like, "Eh, I would rather go in the room and grab the glasses and bring them to the kitchen myself." I can see the argument many ways, but I was like, "I don't want to have this fight. Someday he'll have his own house, and if he wants to have glasses in his room, he can. I don't want glasses in his room because then I don't have anything to drink out of."

Penny Williams: Right.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So for me, I'm getting the glasses for me. That's kind of how I shifted, is like, eh, I guess I'm supposed to teach him right from wrong and put your glasses away, but ultimately, what do I care? I'm not going to live with him when he's an adult, I hope. So it's kind of like a pick your battles thing.

But one of the great moments of joy I wanted to share is, the rule for me, I don't know where I learned this, I'm sure I'm right though, was that when you go on vacation, you must maximize the money you have spent. So you have paid for flights and hotel. You will get up early, you will do all the activities—

Penny Williams: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: From sunrise until, you know, dusk, long after dark, and you will fill the day with four to eight activities. I was like, "We're doing this, then this." I also like to write it and color code it and include pictures, and before we would go on trips, I'd make a little book, because once I read that, you get all the joy out of planning a trip that you do from actually having it. So I am an amazing trip planner.

And then one day, I don't know if I asked him or if he just told me, but it was in the era when I was practicing respect and this curiosity, and like maybe his way is fine, oh, this was one of the ways I tricked my mind, I kept saying to myself, "If he was 30 and had his own house, would this be okay?" So that was like, I just kept asking myself that. He was not 30, by the way, and I was paying all the bills, but I just kept doing it. So anyway, we planned a trip that was so expensive to the Amalfi Coast in Italy, and I think it was my 50th birthday trip, and I had packed it to the gills, and I showed it to him, and he was like, "I really don't want to do more than one thing a day." And I was like, "I will never get my money's worth. Also, it's my 50th birthday." We landed at the airport after an all-nighter and I was at the Colosseum, like fighting with the lion, throwing the Christians to the lions. I was like, "Let's go." Anyway, in Rome, I kept my schedule, but once we got down to the Amalfi Coast, I cleared everything off the schedule, which is his preferred way to travel.

So much serendipity happened, so much just hang time and great conversations where we weren't talking about the logistics of getting to the next activity.

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: We met random people. My child does not speak Italian, but he just spontaneously decided he could speak Italian. He can't, but he did. I don't know how to explain this, but he would just meet people and start saying words in Italian. And I was like, "But you don't speak Italian." So he was just like, wanted to connect so much that he sort of discovered the Italian language. We met so many strangers that we never would've met, and it was not my way. I literally thought it was the wrong way to do a vacation. And now I have a trip with my daughter, my neurotypical daughter, to Venice next week, and I planned everything to the letter, and I slightly heard something in her voice. She's really stressed out about some things in her life. And I was like, "Do you just want to hang out by the pool at the hotel?" We're going to Venice. We should do all the things in Venice. I canceled everything except for a massage at the hotel. Now, that doesn't mean we won't do anything. It just means, by having that little bit of curiosity, I've opened something new in me over 50, because I was willing to consider that just because it seemed right to me, there could be another thing equally right.

Penny Williams: Yeah. There's more than one way to do things. There's more than one way. Yeah, we have vacation battles too. I'm like, "We got to see everything. We're going to this place, we got to do all the things, we got to see all the things." And I'll tell you, the best vacation we ever had was when we went to an island, and we were actually in a tent, which none of us liked, but the beach was amazing and there was no plan. Every day we woke up, "What do you want to do?" And we just enjoyed where we were. The tent part was horrendous, but still it's everybody's favorite because we were just going with what was happening. My kid, when he was young, his happy place was definitely the beach. He could just be energetic and free, and nobody was going to correct him and tell him to calm down and all the things, you know? There's a lot of wisdom in really getting curious and noticing what our kids are sort of signaling. Maybe they can't tell us what system will work. Maybe they can't tell us what they want to do and don't want to do, but there are clues. There are always clues.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah. Sophia kept saying, I would send her, "Does this cooking class look good? Do you want to go to the blowing glass exposition? Do you want to do this?" Whatever I sent, she's very positive, and she's like, "That looks great. That looks great." And then every time I said, "What do you want to do?" She kept saying, "All I care about is my tan." And I was like, "Well, Venice isn't really, you don't, that's not, Venice isn't famous for tanning. We're not going to the Greek Isles. It's famous for art. We're going to see art. Let's get on board. Cooking, art, dinners." And then I was like, why not? We could literally go to Venice and sit by a pool, and the world will not end.

Penny Williams: Yep.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Very hard for my brain, because the art.

Penny Williams: Yeah. Because it's discomfort for you.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And open up, and so I think that's it, right? It's much more comfortable to me to be heavily scheduled, but my other goal is to connect with my child on a deep level.

Penny Williams: Yep.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So I'm like, ooh, my best way of connecting and really hearing what's going on is sitting by the pool, which, sitting by the pool with a view of Venice, not the worst thing. It's a rooftop pool on an island off the coast of Venice. Yeah, it's going to be fine.

Penny Williams: Not bad.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So yeah, I think that's it. I think it's curiosity about what we need, curiosity about what our kids are communicating, and then the healthy boundaries. I obviously wouldn't do that if I thought it was going to be harmful to me or not meet my goals. But—

Penny Williams: Right.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: But I can loosen up. I am not chill. I have no chill. But I can loosen up a little because it meets another goal, and I think that's part of the journey. And if you're listening to this and you're not there and you really want to organize your kid's room, that's fine too. Because you've got to take care of yourself. Oxygen over your own nose and mouth first.

Penny Williams: Yep.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So whatever's going to help you get to the next day, sometimes when you got to, I had two that were Irish twins, so they're only 360, 359 days apart. So I had two littles, and we had to sometimes just make it to the next hour, never mind the next day.

Penny Williams: Yeah. Yeah, it has to be about both. It has to be about us too, not just our kids, because how we feel actually impacts how they feel and how they're doing too.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah, exactly.

Penny Williams: Final words of wisdom? Anything you want to leave the parents, the educators, the adults who are listening with?

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Yeah. I think it's that flexibility, that not only are your kids going to change as they grow up, or your classroom dynamics will change as you get different combinations of kids, but your needs will change. And so building system, this is my greatest hack in life, into every system I build is iteration. So the way this system works is the system gets reviewed, depending on what it is, but gets reviewed once a year, once a month, once every three months. That is actually built into it.

So for instance, with our podcast network, just as an example, all my creators are neurodivergent. When most people think of a podcast, they think it's a show you do every week forever, or that plays every week even if you record it in batches. The way we do our shows is we do seasons. So we do four seasons a year, winter, fall, summer, spring. Each season you can have up to 12 podcasts. So you can have anywhere from zero to 12. If you do four seasons of 12 podcasts, you have a year-long podcast. But every three months they have to re-sign a contract, so we have a master services agreement, and then they get an update that says, "How many shows do you want to do this quarter? Zero to 12." And you pick a number, and there's a deadline that they're due by, and if you want to take the summer off because you have kids, you could just take the summer off and you don't have to quit. If you want to take the summer off because you have knee surgery, that's fine. If you're super free because you just lost your job and you want to make 12 episodes and use it to start your own company, you could do that. But built into the structure of our company is that everyone rethinks what they're doing every three months.

Penny Williams: Hmm. Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: And so how can you build in that the rule is that everything changes?

Penny Williams: Yeah.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: That is the rule. That's the rule. Surprise.

Penny Williams: Yeah, that flexibility is important, but also just reevaluating, is this still working? Is this not working? Giving our kids a chance every so often to have some input.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: So I think a lot of us, depending on what state you live in or country or whatever, but you know your kid's going to a different high school, in most cases a different junior high or middle school, a different elementary school. But did you know you could reevaluate more often than that? If the school isn't working, now maybe not the middle of the school year, because that's sort of chaotic and hard on everyone's commutes and whatever, but if you didn't have a good school experience last year, you can pick a different school this year. People do that. And you might not know that because all of your kids went to the same middle school, but this one doesn't have to.

Penny Williams: Hmm. Things can be different, and different is good. Yep, yep. Thank you, Angela. Will you tell everybody where they can find you online? I'm going to link it up in the show notes as well, but let's point them in the—

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Excellent. Yes, the best place to find me is at autisticculturepodcastnetwork.com. Autisticculturepodcastnetwork.com. And that has all the shows and also a link to my personal page, which is angelakingdon.com, if you just want to find me.

Penny Williams: Perfect. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. It was lovely to chat with you. I had a good time.

Angela Kingdon, Ph.D.: Me too. Thanks for having me, Penny. Bye.

Penny Williams: I'll see everybody next time. Take good care.

hey there!

I’m your host, Penny Williams.

I help stuck and struggling parents (educators, too) make the pivots necessary to unlock success and joy for neurodivergent kids and teens, themselves, and their families. I’m honored to be part of your journey!

Hello!
I'm Penny Williams.

Host of Beautifully Complex. I help stuck and struggling parents (educators, too) make the pivots necessary to unlock success and joy for neurodivergent kids and teens, themselves, and their families. I'm honored to be part of your journey!

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A Few of My Favorite Tools

Time Timer

Makes time visual.

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Manage chores and routines while building self-confidence and independence.

Mightier

Blends gaming with off-screen activities to teach coping skills through play.

Howda Hug Chair

A chair that gives kids a sensory hug.

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Ready or not… the school year’s coming.

But chaos, meltdowns, and last-minute scrambling don’t have to come with it.

Back to School Prep Week is your 5-day, done-with-you plan to get your routines, supports, and emotional systems in place — before first-day tears, IEP surprises, and sensory overload can take over. Prep Week is for parents of neurodivergent kids who want:

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