[00:00:03] Kelsey Cook: I get a lot of comments where people will say, kids just need to play. They don't need activities set up, you know, which to an extent is true that kids do need to play, and play is so important. It's like the work of childhood, you know, is them getting to play. But there's also such a benefit to the time you're spending with your child when you're doing these dedicated activities. I feel like the connection that you're getting with your child is the biggest benefit. [00:00:32] Penny Williams: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, everybody. [00:00:58] Penny Williams: I have with me today Kelsey Cook, and we're gonna talk about implementing both creativity and play in learning. And I'm sure we're gonna dive into why that is effective, why that's powerful, why that's, you know, useful for us to do, both parents and educators. But let's start, Kelsey. Will you just let everybody know who you are and what you do? [00:01:23] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. So I'm Kelsey. I am a mom of four, and I'm also, I was a teacher. I taught school for ten years, and then I now own a company called Learning with Kelsey, and we send out activity boxes to help parents better connect and learn with their kids at home. [00:01:41] Penny Williams: I love that. I've looked at your activity boxes. They're so cute, so fun. Just good ways to impart skills too. Right? With that which I'm sure we're gonna go into. [00:01:50] Kelsey Cook: Yes. [00:01:50] Penny Williams: I have a membership where I plan activities for younger kids for learning regulation and emotional intelligence, and I love creating them. It's so much fun to create them, and I'm sure you feel the same about your kids. [00:02:04] Kelsey Cook: Oh, yeah. I love it. [00:02:06] Penny Williams: My son, when he was young, used to get some of the subscription kits, and he loved it. He loved having a package come right in the mail for him and stuff. Like, it was so exciting to him. So it's such a cool thing that you're doing. [00:02:20] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. I love it. [00:02:21] Penny Williams: Where should we start with this? Maybe why is it so powerful to use play, to use creativity when we're talking about helping kids learn? [00:02:32] Kelsey Cook: Well, I feel like especially with the younger kids when you are when you're trying to keep their attention and trying to do all of these things, I think we kind of forget that play is where they're learning. You know? Play, their own play, even without you stepping in and guiding is where they're really learning all these different skills, where they're practicing skills that they have learned. And so the more that we can incorporate play into their learning, the better it's gonna be for them in the end. [00:03:00] Penny Williams: Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And they're more engaged. Right? [00:03:03] Kelsey Cook: Oh, for sure. [00:03:04] Penny Williams: If it's fun. [00:03:05] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. They're more excited, which I think is, like, the best thing that you can do as a teacher is get your kids excited about learning. And the same thing as a parent, You know, if you're excited about something, they're excited about it. So the more engaging and fun you can make it, the easier it is for them to learn. [00:03:21] Penny Williams: Yeah. And for neurodivergent brains too, when there's interest, they're more engaged, they're more focused, it's easier to get things done. Yeah. So it's a big deal. Can we talk a little bit about what creative learning might look like at home, in a classroom? We're definitely talking about preschool, maybe elementary school kids. But what can that look like? Can you give us some examples? [00:03:46] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. So one of our very favorite ones to do that is always a hit with toddlers, preschoolers, and I've even done it with my kindergartners, is taking a toilet paper tube and we tape it to the wall and they drop pom poms through it. And it seems so simple, but it's like they're getting this hands on practice where they're practicing one to one counting by dropping it in, but they're also practicing colors. You can add more toilet paper tubes and they're practicing STEM, you know, engineering ideas, coming up with different ways to do it. And it's something that a lot of parents have at home. You know, I mean, you have you have toilet paper juice at home. You may not have a thousand pom poms like I have, but, like, there's so many different ways to tweak this activity, and it lets them be creative but also learn. [00:04:32] Penny Williams: Yeah. I actually watched your Instagram reel on this one earlier today. Oh my gosh. I love it. You had so many, like, different pieces of it that I could see are, like, sort of occupational therapy and sensory and and fine motor and stuff and I was like why would I not think to do that when my kids were little but you don't you know you don't know what you don't know no but like using what did you have in there tweezers or something where they could pick up the pom poms. They were sorting them. Right? And there was so much to it. [00:05:06] Kelsey Cook: And then it's like, you know, you can kind of lean in, like you said, to their interest, especially kids that are neurodivergent. Like, maybe you have a child that really loves cars or really loves trains and, like, okay. Let's do the toilet paper tubes with a car. Let's drop a car through it and see what happens. [00:05:21] Penny Williams: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm even thinking, like, sensory, like, smell, like using cotton balls and putting different essential oils on them or, like, there's never any I love that idea. Yeah. There's so many ways to integrate that sensory play and getting kids, you know, some of that that need met while also fostering skills or keeping them just occupied and interested sometimes as a win. Right? Yeah. [00:05:47] Kelsey Cook: Sometimes we love that. [00:05:48] Penny Williams: Yeah. So how can we sort of balance both structure and what kids get from free play? Because we know right from the science that free play is super important Mhmm. To learning and development. But why is some structured play also important? [00:06:06] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. That's a good question. Because I think I get a lot of comments where people will say, kids just need to play. They don't need activities set up. You know? And which to an extent is true that kids do need to play and play is so important. It's like the work of childhood, you know, is them getting to play. But there's also such a benefit to the time you're spending with your child when you're doing these dedicated activities. So for me, I feel like the connection that you're getting with your child when you're sitting down and doing this activity with them is the biggest benefit that you're having from it. [00:06:42] Kelsey Cook: And then having something that they can expect, you know, a structure, a routine is so important for little kids. [00:06:49] Penny Williams: Yeah. [00:06:49] Kelsey Cook: And so if in their routine, they know, okay, today I'm gonna get ten minutes with my mom to do this. I know I'll always get a ten minute activity, whatever it is. Not only is that going to help them prep and be ready and know it's coming in the day, but it also, I think, helps with behavior in so many ways because they know this one on one time is coming. They know they're gonna get your undivided attention for these ten minutes. And so I think that is a really powerful way to use it. [00:07:16] Penny Williams: Yeah. And relationship is so, so important in parenting anyway, and helping kids to feel seen and heard and valued when we do things with them together. But I love that you also brought up the predictability aspect because it is big, especially in the neurodivergent community with kids having some sense of predictability. And it doesn't have to be a rigid structure or rigid routine. Right? But just something to look forward to on a regular basis. Like a lot of times when I'm coaching families and their child is struggling with a sense of predictability, I'll say, well, you know, once a week, can you bake cookies together? Once a week, can you do a craft together? Right? Like, what can you do on a consistent basis that they can start to expect because that gives that sense of predictability throughout even if it's a weekly ritual. Mhmm. And so these activities that you're talking about can totally work for that as well. [00:08:14] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. And you're not asking a mom to sit down and do an hour craft with their three year old because as we know, that's literally what happens. So it's really just ten minutes, ten to fifteen minutes that you're you're getting to spend with them. And, yeah, like you said, a schedule or routine, like, even for me as a mom is so helpful. And it when I don't have a routine, you know, you can, like, feel the chaos building. And I think kids definitely feel that, and especially neurodivergent kids can feel like, okay, I'm feeling out of control and that's because I don't know what's coming next, you know? And so Mhmm. Something as simple as setting the expectation for the day, setting out, k. Here's what we're gonna do today. [00:08:51] Kelsey Cook: We're gonna do breakfast, then we get to do an activity, and then you're gonna go play by yourself for twenty minutes or whatever, you know, so that they know what's coming, and it kind of will help them to prepare and be ready for it. [00:09:02] Penny Williams: Yeah. Can we talk a little bit too about experiential learning, experiential play? How do we incorporate like, I'm thinking of kids who are very tactile and, like the pom pom game that you just talked about is a great one for that. But also, is there a way to incorporate experience in it so that it's like hands on learning? I'm thinking like cooking with your kid or things like that that maybe you can incorporate a little bit of math or a little bit of, you know, broader learning rather than just skill building and development. Does that make sense? [00:09:37] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. Yep. Totally. Yeah. I love that because I think, as moms, we don't realize how much learning and teaching that we're doing even in these simple [00:09:45] Penny Williams: Yeah. [00:09:46] Kelsey Cook: Simple activities or tasks that we're doing during the day. So if you can pull your kid into your world and, you know, ask them, do you wanna help me? We're gonna put the laundry in. And it's funny, you know, because when they're four, they love to do the laundry. When they're 10, they hate to do the laundry. [00:09:58] Penny Williams: Yes. It goes away. [00:10:00] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. You could say, k. You're gonna help me, and we're gonna throw them in to the basket, and we're gonna do them in different colors, you know, and you're sorting colors, and you can go outside on a walk, and when you're on your walk, you can play I spy. And these, like, are so simple, but they're learning. You know, they're learning colors, they're learning sounds, they're learning how to notice something and give clues, like, all of these different skills that you probably don't know you're doing. Even as simple as going to the library with your child, you know, and when you're walking through the library, notice things that are the same, different, pick books that they like, you know? Like you said, really honing in on their interests and things that they love is gonna make it even better for [00:10:39] Penny Williams: them. Mhmm. I learned, too, to sort of be a narrator of my own experience so that I could impart skills that Yes. Otherwise wouldn't necessarily be learned. But when we do that, we're engaging with our kids. We're we're engaging in a relationship there, right, instead of sort of going with the flow of whatever. I think we get so lost sometimes on autopilot. Mhmm. [00:11:05] Penny Williams: And what you're talking about really is intentionality within our parenting. [00:11:10] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. Yeah. Like, the other day, I was making a quesadilla, and my nine year old was like, well, can I learn how to do it? I'm like, no. I'm just gonna do it. And then I was like, okay. Wait a second. Mhmm. There's not gonna be much longer when he's gonna ask me, can I do something with you? So I was like, okay. [00:11:24] Kelsey Cook: Let me teach you how. And he was so excited to make a quesadilla. It took, you know, four minutes, but, like Yeah. He felt so proud. He learned a new skill, and it's like, those moments if we can kinda stop ourselves and sometimes it's easier to not, you know, because Yeah. You can go faster. You can do it better, but it can really, really help them. [00:11:44] Keri Bonnet: Mhmm. %. [00:11:54] Penny Williams: Can you give us some more examples of activities? I'm thinking, like, you know, we talked about sensory a little bit. What other areas do you incorporate creativity and play and art really too, right, into learning? [00:12:09] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. So in like, with the preschoolers, they're learning letters, you know, but learning letters doesn't have to just be tracing on a paper. They always get, like, in the box, they always get, like, a little bit of colored sand for each month. And so Mhmm. With the sand, we trace the letter in the sand before they write because, you know, forming letters is so much more than just using your hands to write the letter. [00:12:31] Penny Williams: Yeah. [00:12:32] Kelsey Cook: So they're tracing it in the sand and then we'll even, like, do a dot sticker activity where they're using stickers to find the letter a and cover up the letter a. And then we'll have a craft where we're gonna make an apple, and when we're making the apple, they're getting to rip paper to be on the apple. So, like, they don't even know you're making you're working on your fine motor skills when you're ripping. [00:12:54] Penny Williams: Mhmm. [00:12:54] Kelsey Cook: You're working on your hand eye coordination when you're gluing and cutting, and they're working on their color when they're doing this, And then with their letters, they're learning the letter and the sound in such a fun way that is not kind of the normal way that you would think of learning letters. [00:13:09] Penny Williams: Yeah. It's not sitting down and just writing worksheet. [00:13:12] Kelsey Cook: Yep. Yes. Yes. It comes [00:13:14] Penny Williams: to me, though, as you're talking about that, that some of our kids really struggle with some of those fine motor skills, cutting. My son's 22 now, and cutting is still difficult for him. Mhmm. He can get it done at this point, but, but, like, it's not pretty. [00:13:29] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. Right? And it's just Not fun. [00:13:31] Penny Williams: Part of the way his brain is wired. Right? We worked on Scissor skills, these things, but his brain is wired a little bit differently. So with kids who struggle with some of those kinds of things, how do you adapt these activities to work for them and not be a frustration? [00:13:48] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. I think, first of all, you need to know your child, you know, and that's kind of the benefit of doing activities with them and learning things because then you kind of really understand what their learning style is or what doesn't work for them. So, like, for example, in the activity with the apple, if it was supposed to be cutting, I would have them rip. [00:14:05] Penny Williams: Gotcha. [00:14:06] Kelsey Cook: So I'd have them rip the papers. And then if that was tricky for them, you can even, like, you know, adapt it by starting the rip, letting them finish ripping it, or even just cutting them for them and just working on gluing them because picking up small pieces of paper is a fine motor skill, you know? Yeah. And so kind of just adapting each one to where they're at, there's so many different ways. Like, I'm trying to think of one that we did the other day where we were kind of switching it. They were doing a paper plate where they were using their fingers to dot paint all over the paper plate, And one of my kids, I have a preschool that I do right now, a few little kids, they hate having things on their hands. It's just a sensory thing, you know. Mhmm. They don't like the paint on their hands. [00:14:46] Kelsey Cook: They don't like how it feels. It's just not their thing. So instead, they used a Q tip, and they dotted it in the paint, and then they did dots. So they're still doing the same thing, just kind of switching it a little bit to make them feel more comfortable and more supported in it. [00:15:00] Penny Williams: Mhmm. Yeah. I think we have to set them up for success. [00:15:02] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. [00:15:03] Penny Williams: We can't get too bogged down by what something is supposed to be or how it looks in the end. Right? We have to be more flexible Yeah. And open for that. I wanna talk a little bit more too about instilling a sense of creativity. Like, how do we get our kids engaged with more creative, more playful ways of going about things? Like, sometimes I think it's not intuitive for everyone. So is there a way to foster a love of that? [00:15:38] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. I think leaning in when you see them being creative and kind of, helping them to take it a step further. Like, if your child is, you see them out collecting sticks, you can kind of guide a little, you know, like, hey, what could we make with that? Can you think of something you could make with that? Or, you know, if they're playing with their coloring, let's see, like, hey, maybe what if we added some extra paper to that? What if you cut a paper and glued it? What could you make? So I think setting up these, like, little instances for them to try to be creative and leaving it open ended. Because there is a great spot for, here's a craft, here's what we're gonna do, make it. That's fun. But also just giving them craft supplies and letting them be creative is also really important. And like you said, it's a skill that not everybody has. So the more that you give them that open ended time and allow them the time to be creative, the better they're gonna be. [00:16:33] Kelsey Cook: And then also knowing if you have a child that doesn't like the open ended, you know, because there's some kids that don't and it frustrates them and they want you to give them some guidance, give them guidance and, you know, kind of give as much as you can without doing the whole thing. [00:16:47] Penny Williams: Right. Right. Provide some ideas. Yeah. Yeah. Ask some questions. Uh-huh. Yeah. [00:16:52] Penny Williams: And, you know, as you were talking about that, it reminded me of my own kid when he was getting science kits in the mail. He never once created what the kit was made to do. He only did his own thing with it. Right? And he loved it. Like, this was pure joy for him. He could care less if he made what was on the instruction paper. [00:17:10] Kelsey Cook: I love it. [00:17:10] Penny Williams: It was so much more fun to him to just be creative with it. And at first, I was like, oh my gosh. I bought this thing, and it's supposed to be this. Right? And I was like, wait a minute. Yeah. He's probably learning more [00:17:21] Kelsey Cook: Oh, for sure. [00:17:21] Penny Williams: By doing what he wanted to with those pieces. And it was really fun to see the ingenuity. It was really fun to see what he could come up with. Yeah. And I also was learning stuff about him by doing that. Right? I was learning more about his interests, his skills, and what else he might wanna do. [00:17:40] Kelsey Cook: But it's hard sometimes as a mom to like you said, you're like, I bought this. This is not what you're supposed to do. You wanna just, like, do what it's meant to do, but, like Yeah. Letting go, you got to experience so much more with him than you would have probably otherwise. [00:17:53] Penny Williams: Oh, yeah. Totally. It was so much fun to see what he would come up with. It was crazy. I mean, it was never anything I would have thought of. Right? [00:17:59] Kelsey Cook: It's crazy. And then you learn, like, k. Their brain is so much cooler than mine. Why are they doing this? [00:18:05] Penny Williams: Yeah. Like, the same with Lego kits. Oh, yes. He would really want this kit, but he wouldn't build the thing that the kit was to build. He just built what he wanted [00:18:13] Kelsey Cook: to, but it was It's still still amazing. [00:18:16] Penny Williams: There's so much sort of parenting wisdom in that, in, like, just being okay with letting them do their thing. [00:18:25] Kelsey Cook: Mhmm. [00:18:26] Penny Williams: Child led is really important. Right? Yep. And that's where we get to the good stuff. That's where they're learning the most. Yes. Right? When they're the most engaged. [00:18:36] Kelsey Cook: Mhmm. [00:18:37] Penny Williams: How do we help kids who really sort of resist the structure? So maybe not every time we can let them do whatever they want to do. Maybe it's, you know, a a focus like school activity where they're learning to write letters or something like that. So we need to focus on that, but they sort of resist that structure. They even resist doing that particular activity, do we just pivot, or is there more to it? [00:19:06] Kelsey Cook: I think pivoting is a very great tool that we can use as parents as be like you said, being flexible. But I also think there's value in giving them one or two choices to do, you know. So maybe you know that your child is one to resist activities and resist doing the school thing. So instead of saying, okay, we're gonna sit down and do this. You say, okay, we've got two different things that we can do today. Which one do you wanna do? And tell them about both and let them choose. So it feels more like their idea, they're excited, and they've gotten some independence in it, you know, to let them pick. But then, they're still doing the structure. [00:19:42] Kelsey Cook: They're still getting this specific time and not getting to just have a free for all all day long. [00:19:48] Penny Williams: Right. Yeah. Which can be what they really want. [00:19:51] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. Yeah. And harder for you. [00:19:53] Penny Williams: And really difficult to stop sometimes. Yes. Right? [00:19:56] Kelsey Cook: For sure. [00:19:57] Penny Williams: But, like, too, when you know your kid, you know if it's just not gonna work out that day [00:20:02] Kelsey Cook: Mhmm. [00:20:02] Penny Williams: And you can pivot, and then you can come back to it. Yep. You know? I talk a lot with parents about the fact that, you know, neurodivergence is a developmental delay. We're not saying that your kid is never gonna tie their shoes. We're just gonna give up on it completely. We're just pushing it down the timeline a little bit. Right? And so Exactly. We can always come back to things. [00:20:21] Penny Williams: Mhmm. And we don't have to fit all the norms. Right? We don't have to sit down and do things perfectly because nobody learns from that really. [00:20:30] Kelsey Cook: No. And I as a kindergarten teacher, I would get parents always asking me, like, what do they need to do to be ready to kindergarten? They need do they need to learn all their letters? Do they need to? And I it's so funny that you're saying, like, the developmental part of it is the same with letter learning. Like Mhmm. Learning letters is developmental, and it doesn't matter if your child learns them at three or five. One's not smarter than the other one. They're just they just weren't ready yet. So no matter what even if you drill it into them for years, it doesn't matter if they aren't ready. So my advice to parents always is expose them to it. [00:21:03] Kelsey Cook: That's all you can do. You know, like, give them opportunities to see letters, talk about letters, play with letters, build letters with Play Doh, build them with Legos. Do whatever you can to just expose them to the letters and then one day you're gonna be shocked that they're gonna say, oh, hey, that's an a, that's a b, you know? It's really crazy how fast it comes and how it doesn't matter if you have sat down and written letters or if you've just talked about them. So making it something that they're excited about, that they're loving is the best way for them. [00:21:31] Penny Williams: Yeah. And that reminds me too, just being open to the ways that they learn [00:21:35] Kelsey Cook: Yes. [00:21:35] Penny Williams: And recognizing that sometimes they are learning when we don't think they are. Mhmm. [00:21:39] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. [00:21:39] Penny Williams: You know, my son's kindergarten teacher said, I can't even get him to sit at the carpet or anywhere near the carpet during reading time. Right? Like, you he's off. He's in all these PlayStations. He's doing all these things, which was a complaint, of course. Mhmm. But then she said, every question I asked about the story I was reading, he was always the first one to raise his hand. He always had the right answer. [00:22:00] Kelsey Cook: Yep. [00:22:01] Penny Williams: I'm like, yeah. Because he needed to move to listen. Uh-huh. Right? Like, he needed that movement. But, like, you never know. There are so many different ways to listen, and it isn't just sitting still and making eye contact. Mhmm. [00:22:14] Kelsey Cook: And I [00:22:14] Penny Williams: think that's important in this conversation too that, like, even in creative things and playful things, sometimes we do want to hold kids to that. Yeah. You know, this is my idea of paying attention and getting things done. Like, we can be more free with it. [00:22:29] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. Yeah. And and like you said, knowing your child's learning style is so important. And I think a lot of parents don't realize that. And so getting on their level and doing these activities with them will help you to know how they learn. You know, you'll be able to say, okay, my child is very visual. They need to see the math before they can do it. Or my child's thinking it in their head. [00:22:51] Kelsey Cook: They don't wanna use manipulatives. They just wanna do it. They just wanna do it. Yeah. You know? So knowing that as a parent is gonna help you with your kid when they're little, but then as they grow, you can be a source to the teacher, and you can be a partner with them in helping them to know what your child will need to succeed. [00:23:08] Penny Williams: How do we partner with teachers? So if we have a kid who's in preschool or elementary and outside of the home, how do we help them to want to incorporate more play and creativity into learning? Can we influence that? [00:23:26] Kelsey Cook: I think you definitely can. I think parents need to not be afraid to be partners with the teacher. You know? Because I think if you have a good teacher, they want to be your partner in this. They want to know what's best for your child. They want to help your child. They want them to succeed. So being involved in your child's education, whether that looks like you're going in and you're meeting with them before school starts and you're talking through what has been helpful to your child to help them succeed or you're coming in and you're volunteering and you're getting to see your child in the classroom and see what they need. I think just being open and having open communication with them is gonna help to help your child succeed in their school and also at home. [00:24:05] Penny Williams: And we can also always add learning at home. Right? We can add to Yeah. For sure. Doing at school. [00:24:11] Kelsey Cook: For sure. [00:24:12] Penny Williams: More creativity at home. Mhmm. Kelsey, will you tell everybody where they can find information about your subscription box and connect with you online so that they can learn more and maybe subscribe as well. [00:24:24] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. So I'm on Instagram at learning with Kelsey, and, then my website is learningwithKelsey.com, and that is where the boxes are. And then on Instagram, we're just I just share a lot of good tips and fun things that you can do with your kids. [00:24:38] Penny Williams: Awesome. I will link that up for everyone in the show notes as well, which is at parentingADHD and autism.com/315 for episode 315. Thank you so much. Your enthusiasm is contagious, and I love talking to people who are just so passionate about helping kids learn. Like, it can really be fun. Yes. It doesn't have to be a chore. [00:25:04] Kelsey Cook: Yeah. For sure. [00:25:05] Penny Williams: And I appreciate what you're doing. [00:25:06] Kelsey Cook: Oh, well, thank you so much for having me on. It was so fun to talk to you. [00:25:09] Penny Williams: Back at you. I will see everybody next time. Take good care. [00:25:14] Keri Bonnet: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHD and autism.com and at the behavior revolution Com.