Amanda Morin [00:00:04]: We need to make sure that our students have a space where they feel comfortable. They feel like they have a trusting relationship. They feel like they're not going to be penalized for ways that they might show up that may be outside of the ways that they see their peers showing up. And if they're thinking all of that through consistently, constantly, if that's what's on going, going through your head all the time, you can't be doing multiplication tables because all of that brain space is already being used, wondering, am I doing it well? Am I okay here?

Penny Williams [00:00:36]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama. Honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid.

Penny Williams [00:00:54]: So let's get started. Welcome back, everybody, to Beautifully Complex. I have two lovely ladies with me today who I have known for a long time. We've had lots of conversations. They're always amazing. And we're going to be talking about creating neurodiversity affirming schools, which is super important for all of our kids, and I think all kids. But let's start out. Amanda and Emily, will you all start by introducing yourselves? Let everybody know who you are and what you do and about the book.

Amanda Morin [00:01:34]: Sure, I guess I will start. And it's always good because when you have all these female voices to identify which one it is. Right. So I'm Amanda Morin. I'm an author, I'm a speaker, I'm a teacher. I'm actually the incoming director of academic services at Compass High School, which is solely for neurodivergent students. So I'm excited about that. And I am a neurodivergent mother to three neurodivergent kids, which I think is an important part of this conversation as well.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:02:02]: And I'm Emily Kurger Morse. I am a licensed professional counselor, and I support neurodivergent kids, teens and adults in my mental health practice, primarily. But I used to be a teacher. I also worked as a school counselor previously, and I'm also neurodivergent, and I have three neurodivergent kids as well. But kind of blending that mental health and therapeutic side of things along with kind of that background in education is kind of the work that I do. I'm also the host of the neurodiversity podcast and have written a couple of different books. Most recently, Amanda and I co authored Neurodiversity affirming, transforming practices so all students feel accepted and supported.

Penny Williams [00:02:50]: Awesome. And that's what we're going to talk about here today in this conversation. I think a great place to start is just defining, explain for us. Describe what does a neurodiversity affirming school look like? What does it feel like?

Amanda Morin [00:03:05]: I love that you ask that in two different ways. I really do, because I don't think that, I don't think we've been asked that in two different ways before. And I'm going to start with the what it feels like because I think that's the piece that really sticks out to me is it feels like everybody belongs. Right. And I think that's a ambitious goal, but it's one that we're really hoping to get to from all directions. You know, systemically, classroom level, parentally, all of those kinds of things where you can, you, the student, a kid, can show up in the classroom and feel like you can be the version of yourself that you would be be in any other way. Right. So you belong, you have the supports that you need to be successful.

Amanda Morin [00:03:51]: There's no sort of moral judgment on the way you show up your traits and any of those neurodivergent sort of ways of being. I would start there. Emily, what would you add?

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:04:03]: Yeah, I think that the second part of your question about what it looks like is it looks like students who are learning in ways that work best for them. It looks like inclusion where you don't almost have to even think about it because it's just what happens on a day to day basis where people are, you know, part of the community and given opportunities to belong in that community as opposed to trying to change themselves to fit in. And I feel like for a really long time, for many reasons, neurodivergent kids, even if they've been part of the classroom setting, that doesn't necessarily mean that they feel like they have belonged there so often. So many of the traits that our neurodivergent students show or experience, often they're viewed as disciplinary issues when really they're not. They're often held perhaps to standards that are perhaps too high or perhaps too low for them in particular areas and that can vary even based on the individual student. And so when we create a neurodiversity affirming environment, like Amanda said, it creates a space where everybody belongs. And I think the other thing that I would just mention here too is it's not always just about the students. It's also about the teachers because There are neurodivergent educators as well, who also sometimes need a space where they can be authentically themselves.

Penny Williams [00:05:39]: Yeah, what stood out to me from both of you is you both use the word belonging. And I was hoping we could talk a little bit deeper about that. What are the mental health, emotional health benefits of having a sense of belonging? And then on the flip side, what is the risk when a kid doesn't feel like they belong?

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:06:03]: So Brene Brown has talked about this a few different places, and I've kind of really latched onto it. I really like how she describes the differences between fitting in and belonging. And so when she talks about belonging, it really is the opposite of fitting in. Fitting in, like I mentioned earlier, is kind of changing yourself and belonging as being part of a community. One of the main factors that research shows contributes to a sense of belonging is feeling like you have a voice in that community, that you have something to offer, that you are a part of the process. And so often the things that our neurodivergent students experience or need or whatever, they might actually not have the opportunity to contribute or might actively be told not to contribute those things. Maybe they have a special interest or maybe they have a, you know, a skill or a need or whatever. And it's like, no, no, keep that on the outside.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:07:07]: And so having that sense of belonging, though, it influences a sense of self efficacy, it influences a sense of autonomy. And all of those things are part of the virtuous cycle towards achievement and success. And so we really want to make sure that those things are instilled in our classrooms and part of the structure so that everybody has the opportunity to participate that way.

Amanda Morin [00:07:33]: And I would add that belonging in that way. I mean, Emily just said that beautifully. And the only thing I would add to that is when we talk about belonging, I think we often think about. When we're talking about classrooms, we often think about belonging being, you know, keeping up with the work, keeping up with the students, keeping up with all of those things. But for me, belonging also means there are other ways you can contribute. Right. It doesn't have to be about academic achievement. You know, you don't have to be, like, the best student to belong in a classroom, that you belong in the entire sort of ecosystem of the school.

Amanda Morin [00:08:10]: Are there clubs that you feel comfortable in? Are there ways you can show up on the playground that don't mean you have to conform to, like, foursquare? I don't know what kids do on the playground anymore. That was not right. You don't have to show up the way people expect that it looks. But you still have a space there, right. If you want to walk laps around the playground during recess, because that's how you sort of regulate your system. You still belong because you have somebody who's going to walk laps with you or something like that, you know. So I just think it's important to make clear belonging isn't just about achieving the academic goals. It's about being welcomed into all of the spaces in a school as well.

Penny Williams [00:08:55]: It's really about the social, emotional aspect of school. Right. Which often we don't think about. We think about the academics, we think about following the rules. Right. Your behavior, things like that. And that social emotional piece is really very crucial. Right?

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:09:14]: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned the social and emotional piece. And I think it gets lost in the shuffle sometimes when we think about academics. But the thing that you have to remember is that, like, let's look at the long term for our students. The messages that they receive and the things that they internalize about themselves as students are the things that they will carry with them through their lives. I know that's true for me. It's probably true for both of you and everybody who's listening. And sometimes if there's something you have to unlearn there, that's a lot to try to unlearn those things.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:09:53]: But if you feel like you belong, if you feel like you have a voice, if you feel like you can be successful, that puts you on a trajectory as an adult to be able to accomplish a lot of things that you may not have even really thought about or that you wouldn't have even attempted if you didn't have that experience of success and whatever success means for each individual student that might also look different for different kids. You can't have that actualization, that self actualization. I mean, if we think about like Maslow. Right. And that self actualization that's at that top of that pyramid, like you're not going to get that there without all of those social and emotional pieces also in play.

Amanda Morin [00:10:36]: And also when we have kids who don't feel comfortable in social, emotional, you know, sp like, if they don't feel like they belong, if they don't feel like they can express themselves in a way that is authentic to them, they're hypervigilant, they're worried about all of the things that are going on and how people are going to react to them. They're not able to be available for learning. And I think that's something that I stress over and over again when I talk to parents, when I talk to teachers is we need to make sure that our students have a space where they feel comfortable, they feel like they have a trusting relationship, they feel like they're not going to be, you know, penalized for ways that they might show up that may be outside of the ways that they see their peers showing up. And if they're thinking all of that through consistently, constantly, if that's what's going through your head all the time, you can't be doing multiplication tables because all of that brain space is already being used, wondering, am I doing it well? Am I okay here? So, you know, I think that social emotional piece, we can't skip over it because when we do skip over it, we're actually skipping over the foundation of how students are able to learn.

Penny Williams [00:11:51]: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. Availability to learn was something that I wished I had learned about a lot sooner in my own kids school journey. Because the more that he was dysregulated, the more that he was hypervigilant, as you mentioned, the more that he didn't feel safe, he was not physiologically available to learn. Right. That frontal lobe is inaccessible because the amygdala is sounding the alarm. And so, yeah, you know, sometimes when we stick to these school rules of, you know, butts and seats. Right. They have to be there.

Penny Williams [00:12:25]: Well, if they're there, but they don't feel safe, they're not learning, what's the point of that? Right. Like we have to focus on helping kids feel safe in the classroom, in the environment, socially, emotionally, physically.

Amanda Morin [00:12:40]: Right.

Penny Williams [00:12:41]: All the things in order for them to have that availability, that opportunity. Right. The opportunity to learn, that's part of leveling that playing field.

Amanda Morin [00:12:51]: Yeah, absolutely.

Penny Williams [00:12:52]: I was thinking as you guys were talking about development and trauma, developmental trauma, and the fact that kids pick up a great deal of their self worth through their school experiences. And I was hoping that you all could talk a little bit about that and how we create environments again that are neurodiversity affirming that help kids to say, okay, I don't look the same, I don't do things the same way, I'm different. But I still have value. I still am building some confidence and some beyond what I would think of as beyond belonging. Does that make sense?

Amanda Morin [00:13:34]: Yeah. Yeah. And for me it's, you know, and I have value. Right? It's the not in spite of, it's because of this, I have value. A lot of our neurodivergent kids bring Such unique perspectives into the classroom, right?

Penny Williams [00:13:49]: Yeah.

Amanda Morin [00:13:50]: They bring such unique perspectives into life that I think part of what matters when we're thinking about how do we make neurodiversity forming environments is making space for the fact that it may not look like the way you expect it to. Whatever it is, you know, the explaining the math problem may not look like the way you expect it to. The approach to writing may not look like you expect it to. Any of those kinds of things may look different. I had another train of thought that I lost speaking of neurodivergence. My brain just went in a whole swing there. But I think part of the thing that I would say is giving kids that the opportunity to show what they know, not just in narrow ways. Right.

Amanda Morin [00:14:35]: So, like, and I don't even just mean, like, the UDL component. I don't even just mean, like, multimodal. I mean, like Emily mentioned special interest, for example. I was working with a student the other day who was frustrated about how other kids were sort of reacting to his interest in Pokemon. And Pokemon is his thing. And so I had him teach me all about Pokemon. I wanted to understand all of the things that were frustrating him that the other kids didn't know. And he came up with this graphic and this poster and all these things, and he brought it into the school and he taught his friends about it.

Amanda Morin [00:15:13]: And now it's working better. Right. So leaning in to the things that our kids know and giving them an opportunity to really shine, you know, it really contributes to self worth, is acknowledging that you have things that you know that you can teach other people about too.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:15:29]: Just building on what Amanda was saying about how things might look different than what you expect. I think the other part of that really is about recognizing that friendships might look different, the drive to interact socially might look different. And a big part of what a neurodiversity affirming school offers is the opportunity again, if we're allowing people to be authentically themselves, we need to allow that. So sometimes I'll hear parents or teachers who will make statements like, well, they go out to recess, and all they want to do is bring their book outside to recess with them. And they just want to sit there and read. And they don't want to interact, but they really need the social skills. You know, they really need to interact with their peers. And if we're honoring somebody's experience and preferences, the bottom line is they're getting plenty of social experience in the classroom.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:16:27]: There's a lot of group work that we do. In school, there's a lot of opportunities just for those general interactions. And if, for example, that is that student's recess, should they be allowed to read a book? I mean, I believe that they should, that we should give them that option. And I always put a caveat whenever I talk about this and say, if, for example, that student is actually reading the book because they're anxious about interacting, even though they want to interact, that's different. We support that differently. But we really need to be sure that we're listening to what kids are saying and understanding what they really want and need for themselves again, as opposed to doing anything that is just prescriptive, which I think is the trap we fall into.

Penny Williams [00:17:12]: And I think there's another real benefit, for lack of a better word at the moment, to neurodiversity affirming schools in that we are not traumatizing neurodivergent kids while they're at school, which is a very real thing. You know, I don't throw around the word trauma lately, but my own kid was certainly traumatized at school. And I think, you know, Dr. Bruce Perry talked about in his book that any marginalized individual is going to have traumatic experiences. And to compound that, we're talking about traumatic experiences during development which can have lifelong negative impacts. Right. And so one of the crucial benefits here in my mind is that we are creating environments where kids are not going to experience trauma. Not that we can say never or anything like that.

Penny Williams [00:18:06]: Right. But in general, it's going a more affirming, accepting you belong here environment is going to feel better, feel safer, and be less traumatic during that development, which is so important.

Amanda Morin [00:18:24]: Yes. And I agree. And I'm thinking about my own children and their experiences. And one of my children had some very traumatic experiences at the beginning of his school years. And you know, I know those things stick with him. And I know that, you know, as a neurodivergent not going through school, when people recognize it for, especially with women, females, I have things that I remember from years and years and years ago that stick with me. I think one of the things that I love about neurodiversity affirming environments is that we're taking away the shame. Right.

Amanda Morin [00:18:57]: And I think a lot of trauma comes from the shame of being who you are because other people don't accept it or believe it or acknowledge it or any of those kinds of things. So really, on a very nitty gritty level, part of a neurodiversity affirming school is naming things the way they are, right? Naming, you know, instead of euphemisms that you might use like this, you know, this kid is having behavior problems, or this kid said, you know, is really disruptive or whatever those kinds of things are, naming it like, this kid is having difficulty regulating their emotions. This kid is having a big reaction to something and saying that out loud. Saying that happens, like recognizing it happens to us as teachers, right? It happens to us as humans. I have big reactions all the time because life is something to react to, right? But being able to recognize it, acknowledge it, give name to it, provide support and coping mechanisms takes the shame out of the fact that, like, there shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of, right? There just isn't. There's nothing to be ashamed of. And a lot of times, you know, Emily and I have talked about this with each other, with other people is we put moral judgments on those kinds of things, right? We put moral judgments on. I don't love the words good and bad, right? But like, good behavior, bad behavior, motivation, and all of those kinds of things.

Amanda Morin [00:20:20]: When we take the moral judgment away, kids don't feel the weight of being, you know, quote unquote, wrong in our spaces because they're not. They're just showing up the way they are, and they. We need to understand that the support is what they need more than the lecture or the whatever comes next.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:20:49]: What Amanda was just saying reminded me of. One of my favorite quotes is from a psychologist, Alfred Adler, who developed Adlerian therapy specifically. And the quote is that all of human life is a striving for perfection. And the key word in that sentence is not perfection, it's striving. And it's about the fact that we seem to forget sometimes in the classroom or even at home as parents that kids want to be successful. That is part of just being human. Being human is about wanting growth, wanting progress, wanting momentum. That doesn't stop.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:21:30]: It doesn't stop with age. It doesn't stop once you reach a certain point in your life, like, oh, I've achieved the pinnacle and now I'm done. Like, that just doesn't happen. But sometimes when we look at kids, somehow we interpret it differently because sometimes their goals or their motivations or the things that they feel like they can make progress with are not aligned with what society has decided are the things that they should be making progress toward. But when we take a step back and work to align those things, the trauma occurs when we are constantly in this push and pull between your needs and your wants and my needs and my wants. And you have to comply with what I'm telling you to, regardless of the physiological reaction you have, the emotional reaction that you have, what your actual needs are. And it gets to this point where it's the suppression of that innate need that those kids have. And so we want to give them the opportunity to find ways to integrate those pieces because they do want to be successful.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:22:39]: But the way that schools are currently set up doesn't allow for that flexibility as much as it. As it could.

Penny Williams [00:22:46]: And it should use the word flexibility. Right.

Amanda Morin [00:22:51]: It's a big one.

Penny Williams [00:22:52]: Yeah, it's a big one. It is a key factor. Right. In being flexible.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:22:57]: Here's something I want to say. Yeah. About the flexibility piece, though. Though is I was going to say, I love the fact. I don't love the fact. I laugh at the fact that one of the biggest complaints that people have about neurodivergent folks is that they are not flexible enough by insisting that they have to do it our way, you know, or whatever that way is. And it's like, oh, wait, wait, am I being flexible? You know? And I just think sometimes there's so little insight because people don't reflect on those things. They don't listen to what our kids are saying, and they'll tell us what's working and what's not.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:23:35]: And I'm not saying that there aren't times when kids need to build skills and develop things and be more flexible. Like, that is true for sure, but it's not either or. It's a. Both. And. And I think that that's a shift that we really need to make, and.

Penny Williams [00:23:48]: We have to show up flexibly in order to help kids develop flexibility. Like one of my favorite Ross Green quotes is, show me an inflexible kid, I'll show you an equally inflexible adult.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:23:59]: I don't know if I've heard that one from him before, but.

Penny Williams [00:24:01]: Yeah, that's exactly right. It's in one of the books. Yeah. And it's like, oh, duh. Like, we get on autopilot. We get stuck there. We're wired to respond in kind. Right.

Penny Williams [00:24:14]: So if somebody comes at us with inflexibility, our prickles are going to go up and we're going to try to dig in and not be flexible either. Right. And that power struggle ensues when really, if we could just notice that they're giving us a signal that they also need us to be flexible, that they need some flexibility. Right. It could change things.

Amanda Morin [00:24:32]: But I think the question why matters? So Much, right? We ask, I think as educators, you know, asking ourselves, yourselves, why? Why do I need it to be that way? Is there an actual answer? And I ask myself that as a parent, just to be like, really frank, like, I'll say something and then I'll be like, oh, does that actually matter? Why do I need that to be? You know, and then I have to backtrack a little bit and be like, you know, actually not important kind of thing. That's something that our kids need to see too, is our ability to say, ooh, actually I thought about this again and I changed my mind and it really doesn't matter, or we can do it differently. You know, one of the most striking things a kid has said to me lately was just. And this kid was having some strife with a teacher, said to me, who has beef with a 15 year old? And I was like, that was the best thing I'd heard because I was like, you're not wrong there, right? What adult has beef with a 15 year old? And I thought, what an insightful thing for this kid to say. Also just hilarious, right? It was a hilarious thing to say, but super insightful. And I said, well, I'm sure you can't say that to the teacher, but there are other ways. Let's work on ways that you could say, you know, how do we make this work better? What's going on here? But it's true, I think, remembering that as adults, that doesn't mean we can't work with the students that we have. We can't respect their opinions and their thoughts and hear them out.

Amanda Morin [00:25:57]: Right? And that's part of the flexibility is hearing them out. And I've been a teacher for more years than I'd like to be able to say, because it's been a long time. And I know that there have been plenty of times where I've just been like, well, we have to do it this way. And I look back on the years that I was like that and I think, why? What was that about? That wasn't about the students in my classroom. It was about me and my own feeling of self efficacy, my own feeling of how the other teachers around me were gonna judge what happened if I made things a little more flexible, right? So being able to show up and say we can have conversations is really a big part of being neurodiversity. Affirming as well is making sure that you hear people out. And sometimes in the end you're gonna be like, I heard your argument and I still don't agree with you. And I still need you to do this paper because it matters towards your grade.

Amanda Morin [00:26:48]: But let's think about, are there other places you can do it? Are there other ways you can do it? Do you need to break it up into chunks like those kinds of things? But it's just. I don't know, I just keep thinking about how many times I have said because and realizing because is the answer that I would not want to hear. So, you know, rethinking that myself.

Penny Williams [00:27:10]: Yeah, I was just thinking about math as you were talking about that, and all the struggles with showing your work and math over the years. Right. My kid did not understand why if he could do it in his head and get the right answer, that he had to write it down, and then he would get in trouble for not writing it down. Right. And there was this friction that was just caused by both people digging in and not seeing the other person's perspective. And, you know, he had a more difficult time with seeing that other perspective or understanding that there are other reasons beyond getting the right answer that he was being asked to do these things. You know, but getting creative and maybe sometimes making exceptions. Right.

Penny Williams [00:27:52]: Is it really that important to show your work when you got the right answer? Just saying. And put that out there in the world for the next set of kids. Right.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:28:01]: So I have two thoughts. So one is directly related to that, and it is interesting to think about. And I feel like if you can effectively explain why the kids need to show their work, because the problem if you don't show your work. Actually, I was listening to a really great podcast the other day, and I'm not going to remember what podcast it was, because I listened to all of them, but they were actually talking about AI in education and about how teachers kind of need to recognize the fact that. I think this was actually the Ezra Klein podcast, if anyone wants to go back and listen to it at some point, whenever this is released, and it was with somebody, and I'm not going to remember her name, but she was from the Brookings Institute specifically. And they were talking about how if you're using AI in education, you have to be able to explain how you used it. Right. And the value to that is, like, if I, as a teacher don't have the feedback about how you reached your response, I can't then guide you.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:29:00]: So I do feel like most kids that I've worked with, really, it's like you can help them understand that, but you have to be able to explain it and get them on board with that. But also, do they have to show their work on every single problem? Like if they can show you what their thought process is, and maybe they can't do it in writing, maybe they need to speak it to you like there's other ways to do that. So there is value to understanding that process, whatever it might be, as an educator, because without that feedback, I can't effectively teach you, you know, because there can be some mistakes that might happen there. And so again, I'm kind of getting a little bit off track. But I think again, it goes back to that flexibility on both sides, but also just that, honoring autonomy and bringing kids into the process, it's not. You have to do it because I said so. You have to do it because this is how this happens here. And I need to get a little bit of buy in from you on some level to kind of figure that out.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:29:54]: The other thing I was just going to mention, this is kind of going off on a totally other tangent because it was something I thought of earlier. But talking about how teachers show up in the classroom is so important. And I've actually been reflecting on this quite a bit lately. I was thinking about how when I first started teaching, we talk about the trauma that neurodivergent people have just through their own experiences. Growing up, I remember that there were times that I had students in my classroom when I was not only not my best self, but where basically I was almost imitating the things that had happened to me because I didn't have an alternative right? And even though I knew perhaps that they didn't work at that time, I didn't know what to do instead. But somehow in my brain I had almost internalized this idea that like, well, somebody did this, so it must have been the right way to do it. And even though it didn't work on me, there must have been something wrong with me. And so then.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:30:50]: And then I. There are just a couple of these instances that I think about in my mind where I remember having conversations with students in ways that conversations had been had with me and seeing those students have the same reactions that I had and having this realization like, oh, yeah, that's just bad. That's just a bad way to handle that. That wasn't a me problem when I was a kid. That was a problem with how that situation was handled. But my point in that is, like every teacher who comes in carries with them all of their past experiences from when they were a student, from when they were a child, with their parents, whatever other things that they've experienced. And it really, really takes a lot of self reflection and insight to recognize how those things influence our current actions and behaviors. And I don't think in education training we focus on this at all.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:31:42]: So I have two masters, you know, one in education, one in counseling specifically. But on the psychological side of things, on the mental health side of things, we actually talk quite a bit about how our own experiences influence how we show up as a therapist in the mental health setting. And we talk about transference and countertransference and how we have to be able to regulate our own emotions in order to help our clients regulate their emotions. And I think that that's really something that educators need more support towards and understanding in order to implement. Because you can't effectively meet the needs of all of the diverse learners in your classroom if you're just repeating the patterns of things you've experienced in your past without any insight into why you're doing those things.

Amanda Morin [00:32:28]: And one of the chapters that we wrote in the book is all about building emotionally competent classrooms. And the focus of that chapter is less about building emotionally competent skills in your students and more about reflecting on what do you as a teacher need to build for social and emotional skills to be emotionally competent yourself. Right. Because the research shows that students who have emotionally competent and self aware teachers are learning those skills because they're seeing them happening in the classroom. Right. They achieve a better rate of success, whatever that success looks like, because they have teachers who are self aware, who are able to self monitor, who are able to do all these things. And I say it like it's easy. It's not easy, period.

Amanda Morin [00:33:15]: It's not easy. Right. That goes back to the striving component of being human. But you know, to Emily's point, that's not something I learned when I was learning how to become an educator. It's something I've learned through being an adult who is finding my way through life. It's actually something that I've learned more as a parent to neurodivergent kids than I learned anywhere else in my life.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:33:37]: Yeah, totally.

Amanda Morin [00:33:38]: Yeah.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:33:38]: Yeah. I look back and I go, my first year teaching, I always laugh. I'm like, I was 21 years old. My frontal lobe was not fully developed. It was a bad idea. I don't know who thought it was a good idea to put me in front of a classroom, but I also reflect and go, there were parents who were asking me advice about things. I didn't have kids. I had no clue.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:33:55]: That was terrible. They should not listen to Anything I said and, but there is that process. And I'm not saying that every teacher has to have their own children or whatever. I mean, I'm really just reflecting on the fact that for me and I have three kids, but there's a, you know, Amanda kind of has the same. But there's a gap. Right. My oldest is 17, my middle is 15, and then my youngest is 10. And I parent that 10 year old so much differently than I do those older too because I've just learned more about myself and about my kids and about all of these different things.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:34:28]: And so I think that it's okay for teachers to walk into the classroom and realize that that's just the beginning of that process and of that growth and it's okay to change. You don't have to have it all figured out. I think that's the same thing that parents can recognize for themselves.

Amanda Morin [00:34:45]: As I smile when Emily says that my, my children are far apart in age too. And the older two are young adults are not actually children anymore under 29, 22 and 15 are my, my kids ages at this point. And the older two consistently complain at how good a parent the, the younger one gets. And I'm like, I'm sorry, I didn't know what I was doing as much as I do. And also. So you are my learning experience to make me a better parent for your sibling here. But you know, it is hard. It is hard.

Amanda Morin [00:35:19]: And I think it really stresses the importance of teachers finding mentors too. I don't know that that's something that's always built into systems. And I think having teacher mentors where you can have somebody who's been doing it a little bit longer. I know that in most cases when you're starting out, you have somebody who is sort of paired up with you, but not always like continuing to have mentors, continuing to have somebody who can say, I don't know if I did this correctly. I don't know if you have another idea. Right. And that requires some vulnerability on the part of a teacher to be able to say like, I don't know if I did this well and I need help. Right.

Amanda Morin [00:35:58]: And none of us like to ask for help. Well, actually, I don't know. I speak for me. I think I just brought my own stuff to that. I don't like asking for help. If you listener don't like asking for help, I would encourage you to realize that it's okay. We encourage our kids to ask for help. And I think as parents and as educators, we also need to ask for help when we feel stuck in a situation.

Penny Williams [00:36:21]: And really what we're talking about here is growth mindset. Like, every time you all have an answer to something and then all this conversation, I'm thinking we're just asking for growth mindset. We're asking for growth mindset for yourself as an educator, for yourself as a parent, for asking for it to teach our kids to have a growth mindset. Right. That that is more valuable. And with that also comes that flexibility. Right. To say, okay, we may not be at our best right now.

Penny Williams [00:36:52]: We're growing, we're learning. We're always learning. Yeah. I mean, my two kids are young adults. I don't have the third straggler. And now I'm like, I wish I could start over now with what I know now. And they would have had a totally different childhood. And it would probably be better in a lot of ways.

Penny Williams [00:37:10]: Right. Because I just have more experience and knowledge and all the things. And that's not reality. Right. And so we don't blame and shame ourselves. We just say growth mindset. Right.

Amanda Morin [00:37:23]: But they're benefiting from that now. And I say that to you because I know that we have children of around the same age. They're benefiting from that now because we can have those conversations with them as they are young adults, because that relationship changes a little bit. And to be able to say, like, you know what I wish I'd done differently when you were younger, it doesn't change how we did it, but it can change how they think about it a little bit.

Penny Williams [00:37:46]: Yeah, it can change maybe their narrative about it if we revisit it in a different perspective. Yeah, for sure. We are unfortunately out of time. That went by in the blink of an eye. And I want to make sure that we tell everybody where they can get the book and also where they can find each of you online so that they can learn more from you.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:38:08]: You can order the book pretty much anywhere. Amazon, Target, Indie Bound, wherever you want to find it, Barnes and Noble, all the places. And you can check out the Neurodiversity podcast anywhere that you listen to podcasts. And you can learn more about the work that Amanda and I do on our website, neurodiversityformingschools.com we've got info there about a limited series podcast that we did, our speaking courses, all of those great things. What else, Amanda?

Amanda Morin [00:38:38]: I would put in another note about the podcast. So we did a limited run series called Creating Neurodiversity Affirming Schools podcast, which aligns with the book. But you don't have to have read the book to benefit from the conversations and the ideas, too. So, you know, if you're somebody who learns in a different way, we'd encourage you to, you know, check out the podcast and see if it catches your attention and your interest and gives you new ways to think about things.

Penny Williams [00:39:06]: I love that. And the book is for educators. Is it also for parents?

Amanda Morin [00:39:11]: We've had a lot of parents who've told us they're using it as a tool to learn and to advocate within the systems that their students are in.

Penny Williams [00:39:18]: Love that I just am so thankful for the work that you're doing, what you're putting out there to change the way that we educate kids so that kids like our own have an opportunity. Not like, I don't even put emphasis on academic performance. I just want them to have the opportunity to feel good about themselves, to feel confident and competent. And I think, you know, this work that you're doing is such a great way to start transforming the way that we think about neurodivergent students. And I'm so thankful for that. I appreciate you being here, too, and sharing more of your time and more of your wisdom with the audience here. It's so, so valuable.

Amanda Morin [00:40:07]: Thank you.

Emily Kircher-Morris, M.A., M.Ed., LPC [00:40:07]: Thanks, Penny.

Penny Williams [00:40:09]: I will see everybody next time. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:40:12]: Thanks for joining me on the beautifully complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhd and autism.com [email protected].