382 How Cognitive Load Can Show Up as Big Emotions and Behavior, with Dr. Amy Moore
TRANSCRIPT (LIGHTLY EDITED)

Penny: [00:00:00] Welcome, parents and teachers. I am really excited to have someone new joining us on the podcast. It's Dr. Amy, Dr. Amy Moore, and we're gonna talk about how cognitive load doesn't just affect cognitive function, but it can also impact behavior and emotion. And I think we're gonna have a great conversation around how all of these things are intertwined and what we need to know as parents or educators to help kids who might be struggling with that load.

So, Dr. Amy, will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Dr. Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I am a cognitive psychologist, and I'm also a child development specialist, a Christian counselor, an author, and I am the director of psychology and research at LearningRx World Headquarters in Colorado Springs, Colorado, so I'm also a clinical researcher. [00:01:00] My specialty is working with neurodivergent kids and their families, specifically ADHD.

I've been doing that for more than 30 years. But I'm also an ADHD mom and a mom with ADHD myself, so I have an understanding from both sides of the couch.

Penny: Yeah. You wear a lot of hats.

Dr. Amy: I do.

Penny: You wear a lot of hats. But, I mean, I just think that's how you reach and help people, right? Is when you're out there trying to spread the word. Where do you wanna start with this conversation? Maybe we really should start with what cognitive load is for anybody who doesn't understand that, or just defining what you're talking about when you say cognitive load.

Dr. Amy: Yeah. Cognitive load is just simply the amount of mental work we're asking the brain to take on, the amount of information to hold and handle and act on all at the same time. And so our brains have limited [00:02:00] capacity, and we can't always handle the amount of load that it's given. And so cognitive load can show up in lots of places. If, for example, a textbook is not designed properly, if you've got an image and a description of that image on the opposite page, that can create cognitive load simply because we have to divert our attention to two different places trying to interpret what that image is about. We see that with graphs all the time.

When they describe...

Penny: Yes.

Dr. Amy: ...the other. That's a simple way to describe cognitive load. But cognitive load can also show up when we give our kids three-step directions. And so if we have a child with weak working memory and we give them a three-step direction, A, it's hard to hold on to all three steps while acting on step one and step two. But [00:03:00] if one of those steps is too difficult in the moment, that's gonna change how that child's brain is able to interpret and process and act on that information too. So we see cognitive load when we're in traffic. So if we...

Penny: Sure.

Dr. Amy: ...have slow processing speed, or if our visual processing skills are weak, it can be really difficult to pay attention to what's happening in the lanes on either side of us while at the same time following our GPS, checking our speed against the speed limit, managing any conversations that might be going on in the...

Penny: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Amy: ...So what does it look like when our brains are overloaded, and we're seeing that show up as big emotions or maybe some behaviors that could be challenging?

Penny: And it kind of reminds me of multitasking. Like if you're trying to take on too much at once, and that might be a [00:04:00] decision, and what we're talking about isn't necessarily a decision to do so many things that it impacts cognitive load, but that's where my mind went. Like when we're multitasking, we're trying to do too many things, we're stretched in all different directions, and then that difficulty starts to get your nervous system out of whack, right?

You start to get anxious and stressed and...

Dr. Amy: ...dysregulated when you can't. Well, and interestingly, neurologically, there's no such thing as multitasking.

Our brains actually can't handle what we think of as multitasking. What looks like multitasking, and when it looks like someone's good at it, it's actually called rapid task switching.

So that brain...

Penny: Wow.

Dr. Amy: ...is switching from task to task to task, back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, which requires really strong processing speed, really strong executive function skills. But the average brain [00:05:00] really struggles with that. So of course it's gonna lead to frustration...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...to manage.

Penny: Yeah, and when we add ADHD to the mix, then, right? Like, does not compute. It makes it too difficult. Yeah.

Dr. Amy: And interestingly, you know, we always think of ADHD as an attention issue, and it is. But in this really interesting clinical study back in 2019, we looked at more than 5,000 children and adults with...

Penny: Wow.

Dr. Amy: ...ADHD. We looked at their IQ scores and their individual sub-scores on the cognitive skills that make up an IQ test. So we plotted them on a graph by age, from ages four through 40, and what we found was attention was not the weakest cognitive skill in this group of more than 5,000 people. It was average. Working memory, long-term memory, and processing speed were weak. They were the [00:06:00] weakest cognitive skills in this huge group with ADHD.

So that makes sense. I mean, we're talking about the brain's ability to hold multiple pieces of information in mind and act on them. That's working memory, and...

Penny: Hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...that's gonna create cognitive load, which is even magnified in ADHD.

Penny: I'm curious where executive function skills landed in that study.

Dr. Amy: Well, working memory is an executive function.

Penny: Okay. So it pulled that out of that category. Gotcha.

Dr. Amy: Executive function is a different theory than the Cattell-Horn-Carroll theory of cognition, which is what most IQ scores are based on.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Amy: The emotion regulation, the organization piece, the...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...piece that we, you know, see when we talk about executive function.

We wouldn't see that on a traditional IQ test, and so that wasn't part of that study, although working memory is a huge part of executive functioning.

Penny: [00:07:00] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I remember my son's IQ test. He's a young adult now, but when he was young and being evaluated, what we ended up figuring out was that his processing speed was really pulling down his IQ score. And even when it was combined, it was very high, but it was, you know, sort of skewing it in a way that a lot of teachers who didn't know the difference had a really hard time with.

Dr. Amy: Yeah, and we see that a lot, especially because many of the tests are timed...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...in an IQ test. So if you have slow processing speed, it's gonna impact your other test scores as well. So if the visual processing test, for example, is timed, even if you had decent visual processing skills, if you couldn't do them quickly enough because your processing speed is [00:08:00] slow, that's gonna pull down the entire composite score.

Penny: Mm, yeah. Where else do you see more of an intense cognitive load? Like, I'm thinking, where is it that it's hiding from parents? Where is it that we're not really recognizing? Like, the examples you were giving earlier made me think of my son, who really struggled with copying down something that had been written on the board, for many reasons.

Dysgraphia was one. But now I'm thinking, okay, well, it was also adding to his cognitive load and making things more difficult. So are there other things like that that maybe we don't realize are having that type of impact?

Dr. Amy: Yeah, so let's take just homework at the dining room table.

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: We typically think, "Okay, my child is sitting there doing his homework at the dining room table. That's one task. How could we have cognitive load because he's got one task?" But [00:09:00] a meltdown over homework is rarely a meltdown just over homework...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...right?

It's not the one task that he's being asked to do. It's what is required by that task that his brain is having trouble processing in the moment. And so then we have to look at, okay, does he have the requisite skills to complete this particular assignment, right? So if our child was sick earlier in the week and missed some skills that were leading up to this particular task, then that's gonna make it difficult to actually complete that task.

And then when we're having difficulty, that leads to frustration, and then that frustration leads to, "What do I do with my frustration? Because Mom is expecting me to sit here and do this homework, but I'm listening to them talking in the kitchen." So now I'm having to tune out the conversation that's happening in the kitchen.

At the same time, I'm trying to manage my own frustration at not being able to do this...

Penny: [00:10:00] Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...because I have soccer practice in 20 minutes, I need to do this task quickly. I don't realize that the reason I can't do this task right now is because I missed an important piece of instruction four days ago, so I don't realize in the moment that I need to ask for some help. So I'm having a difficult time managing this one task, this one homework task, and now my brain is completely overloaded with external stimulus in the environment, sound...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...a time constraint, the knowledge that I have something else that I have to get ready to do, and maybe some interest and excitement about that that I have to suppress because I'm being told I have to...

Penny: Right.

Dr. Amy: ...do this right now. Oh, and by the way, I didn't get to finish my lunch. I ran out of time, so I'm starving, right? So now my brain isn't working optimally because it's hungry. I didn't get enough sleep last night, so I'm also tired. So I'm not just a problem with this one homework task, but I'm [00:11:00] also tired, hungry, stressed, and I'm gonna be late. That's cognitive load.

Penny: Mm-hmm. And distracted by that conversation that's going on too, right?

Dr. Amy: Right, and that's part of the cognitive load, right? I'm trying to tune that out...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...[they might] be talking about me.

Penny: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Amy: And if I have ADHD, I have rejection sensitivity, right? So if they're talking about...

Penny: Another layer.

Dr. Amy: Exactly.

Penny: Yep. Yep. So many layers. I mean, it's like peeling an onion when you're talking about ADHD. And what took me a long time to learn was that it's not just inattention, but it is all these other things that we're talking about. It's the emotional layer, the sensitivity, the sensory, the working memory, all the other executive functions, right?

Like, all of these things...

Dr. Amy: Yeah.

Penny: ...are kind of a perfect storm when we're asking a kid to do a task like homework. [00:12:00] There's so much more that goes into it that I think we take for granted as adults. Even neurodivergent adults, but definitely neurotypical adults. You know, I never sat back and thought about all of the steps and all of the things that it takes to just do something like writing a sentence on a piece of paper, or taking out the trash, or things that seem like, as you were saying, that one task.

It's not one task. It's so much more than one task. What...

Dr. Amy: You brought up sensory issues too...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...so let's say, in addition to all of those other things, the tag in my shirt is itching me...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...and now my attention is fully on this itchy tag in my shirt, which can create a fight or flight response in many kids with sensory issues. So...

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: ...right, it just...

Penny: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: Yeah.

Penny: I think the situation that you described with homework, with all of those layers going on and that frustration [00:13:00] building, that it's really easy for that to tip from kind of welling up with emotion to dysregulation, and now I'm in fight, flight, or freeze. Is there something that parents can do to help manage the cognitive load, maybe reduce it sometimes?

Like, what are the strategies to help with this?

Dr. Amy: Yeah. I think that we have to get super curious and be detectives about the behaviors that we're seeing. And so when we see our child get frustrated, when we see our child becoming dysregulated, you know, the question then that we have to ask ourselves is, what is this behavior communicating to me as a parent? What need...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...is unmet right now? And then what can I do to meet that need? And I think [00:14:00] when we stay flexible in those moments, when we stay curious in those moments, then it really helps us drill down on what that behavior might be communicating. And when we do that, we begin to notice patterns. And...

Penny: Hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...when we can document patterns, whether it's formally or informally, then we can start being proactive the next time so that we can say, "Okay, what needs to be in place to set my child up for success?" If these conversations in the kitchen are distracting to my child, then we're gonna move those conversations, for example.

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: If I know that my child has sensory issues with temperature, then I'm gonna optimize the temperature in the room where my child is doing, you know, her homework.

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: I'm gonna recognize when my child is just beginning to look dysregulated. You know, because once they're in meltdown, there [00:15:00] isn't anything we can do, right?

We're...

Penny: Yep.

Dr. Amy: ...gonna stay near, make sure they're safe, and wait out the hurricane.

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: I think the mistake that many parents make is they aren't watching along the way, that, you know, becoming dysregulated piece. It's only when their child is face down on the floor in a full-on meltdown that they then try to solve the problem, and we...

Penny: Right.

Dr. Amy: ...can't solve the problem during a meltdown, as...

Penny: Nope. Yep.

Dr. Amy: ...we have to wait that out. So we just have to be curious and flexible and proactive.

Penny: Which isn't always easy.

Dr. Amy: No...

Penny: I'll validate. It isn't always easy. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...and when we're juggling, that means that we're at risk for cognitive load too.

Penny: Yep.

Dr. Amy: School or daytime schedules, our own work schedules, dinner, soccer practice, homework that we don't necessarily understand because we didn't teach that class to them, right?

When we're trying to manage all of that, it's easy for us to become dysregulated too. So we have to take care of [00:16:00] our own needs also, and taking care of our own needs isn't selfish. That's actually part of showing up as a parent in the best way we can.

Penny: 100%. Yes. That's a hard lesson for parents because it's trying to undo the whole belief system that we've been taught up until that point, that we're supposed to sacrifice everything of ourselves to be a good parent, and actually, that makes it harder to be that good parent. Like, it doesn't make any sense.

Yeah. And something you were just talking about too reminded me of Brenda Smith Myles and her rumble-rage cycle. And, you know, when we're trying to be proactive, we're trying to catch it in the rumble. We're trying to catch it when things are starting to just sort of get a little hot, a little heated, right?

Or maybe the shutdown is starting. That's what we're looking for in those moments, and it takes a lot of observation [00:17:00] and a lot of really, like, asking yourself, "What else could be going on?" 'Cause I think we instantly assume in a situation like homework that they just don't wanna do it, that it's a choice, right?

When most often, I think it's a can't instead of a choice not to.

Dr. Amy: Absolutely, and I think we have to remember that too, 'cause what looks like this refusal or obstinate behavior, it looks like this "I won't," is...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...an "I can't." And so we have to show up in a way that, you know, asks the question, "Hey, what is the hardest thing for you right now?" Right? And then that's where we start.

Penny: Mm-hmm. And what if the kid can't answer that? Because I get this question a lot. What if they can't tell me what's going on, where the struggle is?

Dr. Amy: Yeah. So then we just drill down a little deeper, right? And so, I mean, if they are in that rumble stage, that's called [00:18:00] escalation in my dysregulation triangle. So before we're in meltdown mode, right, if we can catch them early enough to have some brief words with them to try and diagnose what might be happening, you know, we can ask, "Is the struggle with this particular problem," if they're working on math, "or do you feel like you can't do any of it right now?" And they can usually say...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ..."I'm stuck on this one," or, "I just can't do any of it." And to not be able to do any of it is usually not about the homework.

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: It's about some unmet physical need that's happening, and then that's when we lean on what patterns do I already know exist in my child. You know, what could I potentially recognize right now about those patterns, or is this something new? And so, simple questions, [00:19:00] but we have to be regulated ourselves in that moment. Our faces have to show that nothing is going to shock us in that moment, that we're not frustrated, and that, you know, finishing this task is not life or death.

Penny: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I just wrote down "believe them," because I remember I interviewed someone, I don't know who it was anymore or when it was, because I've done so many, but someone had said the first step is to believe them. Believe it when they say they can't do it right now, right? Honor that. I think that's where we often get tripped up, because we have pressure, too.

We have outside forces saying, "You need to get this homework done," or, you know, we might be saying, "Well, when I was 10 years old, I took out the trash successfully. I don't know why my kid can't take out the trash successfully," or whatever it is. And if we can just sort of lean back on believing what they're telling us, [00:20:00] believing the signals that we're getting from them, it can make such a huge difference, and it's something that took me a long time to learn, too.

You know? It's not easy.

Dr. Amy: Yeah, I love that. And a lot of times we make assumptions that our child has the skill, when in reality we might not have given them the skill, right?

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: We kind of assume everyone knows how to turn on the washing machine, but do they? Like, do they?

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: We're not born with the ability to know how to wash a load of clothes. And so somewhere along the way, did we skip a step? I mean, as a...

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: ...parent, you know, it's kind of our job to run the checklist. I will never forget, my oldest had just gone to college, and he called and he said, "Hey Mom, I think I have pink eye." And so I found an urgent care that took our insurance and said, "Go to this urgent care."

And about an hour and a half later he called and he said, "Hey Mom, can you move $126 into my account? 'Cause [00:21:00] that's how much the eye drops cost." And I said, "Well, where did you buy the eye drops?" And he told me the pharmacy. And I said, "Well, that pharmacy doesn't take our insurance." And there was dead silence, dead silence on the phone. And in that moment, where I was tempted to be angry at my child for not knowing...

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: ...I realized my child didn't know that he had to go to a pharmacy that took our insurance, because that isn't something I had taught him. And so that was...

Penny: Right.

Dr. Amy: ...I had to eat that $126 without being upset with him...

Penny: Yep.

Dr. Amy: ...it just...

Penny: Yep.

Dr. Amy: ..."Hey, next time...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...this is how we do it."

Penny: Sometimes we learn our lessons the hard way, for sure. Yeah. When you were talking about knowing how to turn on the washer or not, like, sometimes you can know it and still your capacity is so low, or your stress level is so high, or your cognitive load is off the charts, where you can't draw on what you know, right?

You [00:22:00] can't pull that skill. How do we help in those moments? What do you think is most valuable?

Dr. Amy: Yeah, good point. So I think that that's the easiest scenario for us as parents, because when we know that our child knows and they aren't doing it, that is a huge red flag to say, "Okay, something is going on right now, because I know my child is capable of doing this. I've taught my child. They've shown me they know how to do it, and they're not able to do it in this moment, so something is happening."

Right?

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: That's a red flag.

Penny: Yep.

Dr. Amy: It's actually better, because in that moment, that doesn't look like refusal. That looks like freeze. And so for us to say, "Okay, my child is hijacked right now because of something," and so we're able to then say, "Hey, I'm noticing that you're struggling a little right now.

Can I help?"

Penny: Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Amy: And then we've [00:23:00] got our toolbox of, you know, breathing exercises or grounding exercises or maybe something where we can, you know, shock their senses, sort of to bring them back into the moment and then be able to say, "Hey, what do you think happened there? 'Cause I know you know how to do this."

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: [Not in a way] that's shameful, right? That it's...

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: ...curious, that says, "Hey, let's unpack that."

Penny: Mm-hmm. And sometimes I think it's just a day where we just step in and give the extra support. Sometimes it's just, you know, a struggle of a day, and we can help them. We don't always have to force our kids to do things that we know they can do. We all need help sometimes. Like, we think once they know how to do it, they should just take off and do it, and we don't think about the fact that we also sometimes have those days where nothing is functioning quite right, and we would rather just, you know, not do some things [00:24:00] and, you know, hope for the best the next day, right?

Like, put off the laundry to another day. We're allowed to do that. We should allow our kids to do that, too. Like, that's honoring that they know what they need, that they're getting what they need.

Dr. Amy: Yeah, I love that reminder.

Penny: What else do we need to know about cognitive load and how it affects emotions and behavior?

Dr. Amy: Yeah, just that, I think, the awareness that sometimes our child's brain, particularly if they have a neurodevelopmental disorder, can't handle all of the information that's being thrown at it at once. And so to be able to take a step back and say, "Is that what might be happening here? Is there just too much information being thrown at my child's brain?"

And so how can I remove some of that barrier to success by saying, "Hey, why don't we just start with this one thing?" Because a lot of times that's what our child needs, that permission [00:25:00]...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...to let everything else go. To try to not hold it all in our brain at one time, and to just have permission to do this one thing...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...and then we can move on to the next. And sometimes that's how it's always gonna be with this child, right? That we are only gonna ask them to do one thing at a time. You know, there are lots of things we can work on to remediate those skills...

Penny: Sure.

Dr. Amy: ...but a lot of times that's going to be a constant struggle.

And when we know that, that lowers the temperature on our frustration too. So I think...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...awareness is the biggest part of that, and to just help manage that load, manage how much...

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: ...our child is trying to hold at once.

Penny: And it strikes me too that by doing that, we're teaching them to do those things for themselves as an adult, right? To know themselves well enough [00:26:00] to know, oh, I need to start with one piece of information. I need to leave the rest. It's not gonna be useful right now. I need one thing to process at a time, right?

And then, you know, we're just helping them to figure out how to navigate the world on their own later in a way that really works for them.

Dr. Amy: Sure, and that's, I mean, that's a valuable executive function skill and life skill, to be able to rack and stack priorities, to be able to say what's most important right now...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...what do I tackle first, and what can wait? And so when our child is able to figure that out, right, that lowers the frustration level too, when they're able to say, "Okay, that can wait until later, because this is the only thing that I need to address in the moment."

Penny: Yeah.

Dr. Amy: You know, we see that as our teens develop their prefrontal cortex. You know, we see as they become teenagers, they are able to make [00:27:00] those decisions, and so we provide that as external support until then.

Penny: Mm-hmm. So much supporting to do, but I think it all starts with this understanding, right, that you're talking about, really understanding how the brain works, how the nervous system works. When I started to learn that, my kids were, I don't know, tweens and teens probably before I learned about it, and it just made everything make sense, and it really shone a light on, okay, what would actually be helpful?

What's going on for them so I can honor that and help them? So I love that you're teaching us about how certain tasks can really overwhelm the brain and make other things more difficult, or how we might see those in the behavior, and now everyone listening has this idea that, "Okay, maybe I also need to think about their cognitive load.

Is there something there that maybe we can pull back on? Maybe that would help," right? So...

Dr. Amy: Yeah.

Penny: ...we take these little bits of information, and we do the best that we can each day, and as we learn [00:28:00] more, we're able to do a little better. And I think that's the compassionate way to look at our parenting, right?

Especially when we're parenting a kid who's neurodivergent and it's not what we expected.

Dr. Amy: Yeah, absolutely.

Penny: Will you tell everybody about your new book and where they can find it? Yeah.

Dr. Amy: So my book is called Hearts On ADHD Parenting: Brain-Based, Grace-Filled Strategies for Raising Kids with Big Emotions and Challenging Behaviors. It's available on Amazon, paperback and Kindle. You can also access it through my website, amymoorephd.com. But I spend a lot of time in my book talking about how raising kids with big emotions and challenging behavior starts with us, not our...

Penny: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy: ...kids, and how to regulate our own emotions, how to be able to access grace by being regulated ourselves, how to show up in a way that enables us to identify what those unmet needs might be, [00:29:00] and then meet them.

And so it's full of tools for their toolbox, as well as, hey, here's how the ADHD brain is different from a neurotypical brain, because I think that builds empathy. It helps parents understand that there really are neurobiological differences happening there.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Amy: So, you know, then we can approach that through that lens of empathy and grace as well.

Penny: Can't wait to read it. Thank you for sharing a little bit about it. I know plenty of listeners will want to go and find it and read it as well. Thank you, Dr. Amy. This has been a fun conversation.

Dr. Amy: It has.

Penny: I love that we've talked about giving ourselves grace as the parent and making sure that we're okay as well, and how much that affects our kids.

It's such an important conversation. So thank you for being here.

Dr. Amy: Thanks for having me, Penny.

Penny: I will see everybody next time. Take good [00:30:00] care.