Jeannine Jannot 0:03

The idea behind doing your best is admirable because what we're saying is, you don't have to be perfect. That's what we're trying to say. But if you've got a kid who's really, really bright, tends to be a little bit perfectionistic it's an impossible ask. You're saying to them, be perfect. That's how they interpret best doing my best. Well, it's never good enough. And so that drives a lot of procrastination and students is what I've seen.

Penny Williams 0:31

Welcome to the parenting ADHD Podcast, where I share insights and strategies on raising kids with ADHD straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, ADHD a Holic and mindset Mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to the parenting ADHD podcast. In this episode, I'm talking to Jeannine Jannot, about what to do when our smart kids are struggling. And I know this is such a common experience for our families. It was certainly my own story with my own son. And so I'm really excited to share some strategies and some insights on what we can do to help what we can do when we see that they're bright, and they're just not able to maybe succeed academically. Thanks for being here. Jeannine, will you start just by introducing yourself, let everyone know who you are and what you do.

Jeannine Jannot 1:35

Thanks, Penny, it's really wonderful to be here talking to you about this. So my background is psychology, school psychology. And I have a doctorate in child and developmental psychology. But what I currently do is I do academic coaching, I have a business called the balance student where I see middle school, high school and college students. And I'm really trying to address not only the academic piece, but sort of the whole wellness piece with our students in today's high stakes achievement culture. And that comes out of it's sort of interesting, how I ended up doing this was I had a kid in elementary school, middle school in high school. And I started teaching college. And I had this amazing, like, 20,000 foot view down on what what's happening in education. And it was frightening to me, especially what I was seeing the kind of end result in the college student. So I was teaching psychology courses, intro level, and freshmen seminars. So I was sort of seeing that new college freshmen type student, and they were so overwhelmed, lacking in so many skills, and it had nothing to do with how bright they were, they were just struggling. And I was seeing it ticking down into like the elementary schools, were seeing a lot of anxiety too. So that kind of a long story of how I ended up saying, okay, somebody needs to help these kids. And so I designed my coaching around sort of pinpointing the issues our kids are facing that are causing them to struggle that's largely driven by the high stakes, high pressure, achievement culture that they're being educated in.

Penny Williams 3:16

And the pressure starts right away. Kindergarten, too soon, starting so early now way too soon. And you have by the time they get to, I'm seeing a lot more high school students who are just fed up, they're like, I can't do more school right now. I can't move on yet. Because I think it's just been too much pressure for too long. But I love that you brought up wellness, not just academics, but whole child wellness. Because, I see a lot of high achievers, and there's a lot of anxiety with that there's a lot of the pressure that we were just talking about. And it's super tough to really, really succeed academically, I think that it's difficult for most kids. And it affects them in a lot of ways that affects their whole being right.

Jeannine Jannot 4:04

Oh, absolutely. And just when you think of the motivation, and particularly coming out of what happened last year, with a lot of remote learning, and, kind of going in, parents might send their students to talk with me or see me virtually, and there's definitely skills and strategies and things that are really helpful. But if you can't address the child who's burned out or has no motivation, or is self sabotaging because of anxiety around, this is really hard. And I really don't know what to do if they can't even get to that point where they can do the work to put in place or try a strategy or skill. That's a real problem. And I think more kids than we realize are in that space.

Penny Williams 4:48

And I feel like when the kids feel good and feel confident and capable, the academic piece falls into place. Absolutely. We need to be focused on how they're doing outside of the app. academics to help the academics.

Jeannine Jannot 5:02

And you just mentioned two of the three things that are required for any of us human beings to be motivated, having some control some autonomy over the situation, feeling like you're competent. And the other piece of it is that connection or, the belonging piece is important to feel like there's some meaning behind what you're doing. And when you think of those three things, and you think about students, particularly our middle school, high school, college students, they really struggle on all three fronts there. Mm hmm.

Penny Williams 5:33

And I think that that struggle with control happens a lot more for kids who have learning challenges, too. And to understand why they're learning what they're learning, my own son, who graduated last January, really struggled with being open and willing to learn when he was being forced to learn. He didn't understand why he needed it. And he got really stuck on that, which is, I think, a good part of, the autistic part of his thinking. It really held him back. And he really struggled with how does this translate to life? Why do I really have to do this? Why do I really need to learn this? And I think we're missing that in education, we have been for a long time. I feel like that would be so helpful. If we started really trying to relate education to real life, what they do when they leave.

Jeannine Jannot 6:25

Oh, absolutely. And the validity and is pushing back on that is is high. Makes sense. It makes total sense. It just doesn't work in today's high stakes, achievement culture, because it is a formulated, check the box. That's what's been reinforced over the last couple of decades, and it's gotten worse and worse. And so our students aren't going in as organic learners anymore. That gets kind of bred out of them pretty early by about third grade, they're all about getting check the box, I gotta get this assignment done. I have to read this many books, I have to do this, I have to do that. Are you interested in what you're learning? No, not really, I don't really care. I just want to get the A. And I hear that. And by the time they get to high school, they just sort of outwardly say, No, I'm not really too worried about the learning piece, I really just need to get the ACE and my GPA stays at this. And I need to get the score on the LSAT, a CT. And it's all about the checking the box. And that's not very fun, and not very meaningful. And then they come into college, and I'll have no I was teaching intro psych. And some of my students would come in having taken AP psych. And almost always they would say, Oh, I don't remember anything from that class. And let's say so to what end? Are our students doing this?

Penny Williams 7:46

And there's so many places, it's such a loaded, the whole educational system is just such a loaded conversation right now. And it's so much harder for our kids with learning challenges, ADHD, autism, learning disability, specifically, it layers on the lack of connection, the lack of a sense of control, the lack of confidence, right? So we worry about why are kids not motivated? Well, they're missing all three of those pieces. A lot of times when school is even harder for them, when connecting socially is even harder for them. Right wing apps, like hearing out why they're doing what they're doing is so difficult. How do we address that? How do we help our kids feel more confident, connected in control in the current school culture?

Jeannine Jannot 8:38

Well, I mean, one of the reasons I even bring it up is I think, for a culture to start to shift, everybody has to even recognize that we're in it. And oftentimes, we don't recognize the pressures from being in a culture because it's impacting, our attitudes and our beliefs and our behavior, and it just sort of happens. It's like a fish in the water, you don't notice the water until somebody points it out to you. So for me on that kind of fundamental level, working with students, or even talking to my own kids, is to have the conversation about, here's the reality, that you're living through. And I recognize this, I want you to understand it. And so what are our expectations? So let's get get at that personal level, for you. What do you want to get out of school? What do you want your schooling to look like? What's important to you? What's not as important to you and kind of come together with reasonable expectations? Because I feel like sometimes we just jump over what actually is reasonable for our family and our kids. And it's more of what's the expectation, what are the neighbor kids doing? What is the school, and we get kind of lost in that understandably, because we're well intentioned and we love our kids. We want them to be successful, but at the same time, it might not be helping them balance again, that wellness piece what's best for them long term And we want them to leave school wanting to be lifelong learners, whether that's in a career, whether it's going to college, whatever that looks like, we don't want them to lack confidence there or lack interest.

Penny Williams 10:13

Right? And so often, that's the way they leave. They leave the high school halls, and then it's what now, and not not having that motivation. I mean, this is what we're going through now is, college was definitely not the right fit for my son right out of high school, for sure, anytime soon after it and versus taking time to explore, but even just, a class online and something that he's super interested in, he says, No, it feels like school, I'm not ready to do that, again. I can't do that yet. And, and I've talked to parents of his neurotypical peers, who are also just kind of floating, right, they're just floating along, just waiting to feel some sort of connection to something or motivation around something because they were so burned out. I'm just sitting here thinking, How in the world can we possibly prevent that burnout for our kids, when we as parents are sort of forced into that culture? Right, we could homeschool? Or we could maybe find a private school that was more aligned with the way our kids think and learn and their challenges, which certainly isn't accessible for all. How do we do it in public education?

Jeannine Jannot 11:26

It's a big ask, right. And I think it's, it's a way above my paygrade. But I do think it's the conversation needs to be happening, because it's affecting all of our kids, not just our break is not just our neuro atypical kids, it's impacting all of our kids. But I do think it starts grassroots, because we tend to go top down in dealing with these kinds of issues where, we go from, the politicians to the, the societal expectation to the employers, the colleges, the schools, then we get down to teachers, students and parents, and it needs to go the exact opposite direction, parents and students and teachers know best how to educate kids, and to help them learn and that whole wellness piece, and they need to be one that's pushing practice and policy and programs. And then there should be responsiveness up the chain. And that should be driving what the colleges are looking for, which will impact what the high schools are doing. And, with the job market one, that's what I'd like to see, again, huge ass right, I think that's big picture, what needs to happen, and I feel like baby steps maybe is a little bit starting to

Penny Williams 12:36

And I think as parents, we have to have those conversations with the school with our kids, teachers, it starts with exactly what you were just talking about setting appropriate expectations for your child, individualized, completely throw out all neurotypical expectations, and create some expectations that are completely doable for your child with who they are, where they are, and how their brain works, and then try to get their specific teachers, their school administrators on board with that. And that's a big ask to him is, that's a lot of work to, and, I did it for 13 years. And with a little bit of success here and there, really not shifting his experience very much, which was really a hard pill to swallow right now. I worked really hard at I begged, I pleaded I had probably 100, or more meetings, 1000s of emails. And he still left just kind of feeling down about himself, which is really tragic. Honestly, it's really, it's not just him, it's so many kids, and it's so it's so hard to deal with. But we're gonna focus on each person's individual kid, and the conversations that you need to have with educators and with your kids. I love that when you talked about setting expectations, it's a conversation with your child. It's not a single parent or co parents sitting down and figuring out what they expect. It's a conversation with your child, figure out what they can do, what is doable, what is a little bit of a challenge, right? And then building from there, tiny steps forward.

Jeannine Jannot 14:16

Absolutely. That's hitting those three things to give them more confidence and motivation. It's giving them some control in the situation, some buy in, you're sharing with them, you have confidence in them. Let's set this up so that you will be successful, and you're making that connection with them. It doesn't have to be everybody on board. being supportive in that way. It takes one or two significant adults in a student's life to make a huge difference. So, just having that conversation with your child will go quite a ways. And one other thing I think is important when we're thinking about our individual kids is generally speaking what comes to me and I wrote the book, The disintegrating student because of the type of students that were coming To see me and they were surprisingly bright and gifted and lots of them neuro atypical. So it was the fact that these kids had spent years just sort of going through school without issues.

And in elementary school, just kind of loving learning showing up in class, getting good grades, getting their homework done in school, on the bus, and just getting A's on their tests by not even studying just because they heard the information. So they were like these awesome students, we tell them how smart they are for years and years and years. And then they hit that wall of rigor, which is a place where basically, their ability starts to be stretched, because of the amount of rigor and the challenge that experiencing which is taking downward, like we mentioned. So, I'm starting to see a lot of middle schoolers, seventh and eighth graders taking ninth 10th high school work in those middle school years. And they're not quite ready for it. And what we don't recognize sometimes as parents of our kids is that their mindset has been put in that space, as we like to call the fixed mindset, where their identity is really wrapped up and being the smart kids. And smart kids in their heads, they don't have to try they figure it out on their own, they don't ask for help.

Challenge is a sign of that I'm not smart. So it becomes very, very personal, their self esteem really takes a big hit their motivation takes a hit their confidence, all those things. And parents kind of look at it from the outside, because how, parent, teen communication, so awesome. Your parents are looking at me from the outside and think their kids just stop trying, their grades are going down, they don't care anymore. And the kids like, I have no idea what to do here. And they're afraid to admit that because more kids should be able to figure it out. And so I see so many kids in that space. And when they kind of figure out oh, maybe it's because this is how you're thinking about this. They're like, Oh, that just rings a lot of bells for me. And usually what I can do is point out, if you can shift over to maybe how you play football, or how you are on the debate team, or you're in band, and you have more of a growth mindset where you don't mind somebody helping you and coaching you and giving you feedback, and you don't mind, the challenge you look at it is kind of exciting. And something you're really interested in working out and putting effort in. It's the complete opposite of how they approach school. And when they can kind of recognize Oh, okay, that is I do think differently about this thing over here that I enjoy. And this is what I'm doing with school, it can really open the door for them to work on their mindset as far as how they view themselves as a student. And that can be a good starting place. And it's a good place for parents to be talking to their kids to to figure out. Are you more in this fixed mindset space? And is that problematic for you?

Penny Williams 18:08

So instead of telling our kids that they're smart, we need to recognize effort, right? We need to sort of praise effort and growth rather than these sort of fixed qualities that really are arbitrary anyway, right? If you're smart, you're smart. But, that's what you do with it.

Jeannine Jannot 18:26

Well, they have no control over those things they've been praised on in that regard. So if you're like, you're just so talented, you're just so smart. It's like, cool, until it's not, and then they internalize that, that they're a failure. And they don't take failure lightly. versus a student who hears, Oh, I love the way you approach that, oh, he didn't, you haven't quite gotten that yet. But keep at it, that looks at mistakes and failures as opportunities to learn something. And we definitely don't have that as sort of the umbrella approach in our education today. And that's a huge deficit, because it's not serving our kids well, and it translates back into home where these kids don't feel like they can fail at anything or make mistakes with regard to anything. They feel like they need to be perfect. And that's again, a big ask.

Penny Williams 19:17

And that's a cultural thing too, here in the US, perfection, striving towards perfection, hustling toward more and more and it's detrimental. I think, I think we all need to slow down and live life every day instead of constantly trying to do more and do better. In that way. There's growth mindset, as we're always trying to improve and learn more. And that's very different than just a culture of kind of nothing ever being enough. Very different and I think that starts at home, we can model a growth mindset we can model making mistakes and what we do with that experience, seeing it and using it There's an opportunity, we can show our kids that we're not perfect. And it kind of flies in the face of traditional parenting and, and what we know of parenting. But I think it's way more valuable to our kids than trying to look like we have it all together for them. And that that's where they're supposed to go,

Jeannine Jannot 20:18

oh, Penny, that is our superpower. 100% our superpower as parents, it's interesting, because people will bring their kids to me sometimes. And, I'll tell them something, they'll be like, and they'll, the kid will do it. And it'll be successful for them. And they'll say, I've told them a million times, that's what they needed to do. And they didn't listen to me. And it's like, I know, but you a lot of times as parents because of that relationship, that kid, again, that autonomy piece, that control piece, if it feels like it's being forced on them, or they're being told to do it, they tend to resist, if it feels like it's more, they're in control, they tend to do it. So as a parent, when we get in there and say, this is what you need to do honey, well intentioned, is it maybe it's always well intentioned, the problem is they don't take it well. But what they will do is they will watch us, they will listen to us. And it feels, it does feel kind of like bad parenting sometimes, because it's like, you're not directly addressing the thing, you're just modeling it, but it's so so, so important. And we can all do that.

Penny Williams 21:24

And being more verbal, I was just talking with a coaching client. The other day about this, we take for granted, I think, is neurotypicals. All of the automatic processes that go on in our heads and in our subconscious. And the way we work things out, it's all internal. And if we start verbalizing that process in front of our kids, it's helping them to build those skills, that's helping them to recognize that when something is hard, I do X, Y, and Z, or when something is hard, I really can do it. Because so many of our kids really struggle with that they avoid uncomfortable and difficult things. And when you have learning challenges, that's basically avoiding school, all right, which way lived, but just really being much more open and transparent. And really sharing what's going on in our heads with our kids. Because if they don't see that, they don't recognize that that's happening, because it may not be an innate thing that's going on for them.

Jeannine Jannot 22:24

Absolutely. And I think that drives a lot of that miscommunication, misunderstanding where we're just making assumptions about what's going on, our kids are doing it with us, and we're doing it with our kids. And it rarely is helpful in that regard. And one other thing I'd say that, I think is a well intentioned thing that parents say that I've just recently in the last year or so come to realize is really not helpful is to ask kids to do their best.

I mean, I think the idea behind doing your best is admirable, because what we're saying is, you don't have to be perfect. That's the what we're trying to say. But if you've got a kid who's really, really bright tends to be in this fixed mindset, space tends to be a little bit perfectionistic. It's an impossible ask, you're saying to them, be perfect. That's how they interpret best doing my best is love. It's never good enough. And so that drives a lot of procrastination in students is what I've seen. And I think I realized that this past year, because I think parents were saying it more to their kids, like, Hey, this year is really weird and uncomfortable, and tough and challenging. So you know what, all I want is for you to do your best I want you to turn in your songs. Why did that kind of message, I think was really verbalized widely to our students and maybe from educators as well. And what I saw was just hit the wall stone cold, procrastination, and lack of motivation. And I think that contributed to it. So it's one of those things, again, really difficult on the parents side, because it's just so easy to say, it's like saying, You're so smart. It's sounds nice. There's good intention behind it. It's easy. It's automatic. As parents, sometimes we have to check ourselves because our words actually do matter, especially if we're repeating them a lot. For me, my way of dealing that with that with my kids, because I'm a problem solver. I'm the type I want to get in there is to say, look, here's what I do. When I do it, it's not helpful. I need you to communicate to me when I'm not being helpful there remind me that I don't want to be doing this. And they've been really good about that. And it does two things. One, it it kind of trains me to be a little bit better. And it also gives them again, a little bit of control and it makes them realize what I'm trying to communicate to them. So I think it opens up a different type of kind of a collaborative communication process with your teenager which if you can work on that only good things come out of that.

Penny Williams 24:59

I love that I love the, you let me know when what I'm doing is not helpful. And, and my, my daughter who's in college has started doing that, with anxiety, and I have anxiety too. So I know what she's going through. And still sometimes from the outside of it, you're like, come on, and it can be so frustrating. And, and really, I'm the same as you type a fix it, I want to help get beyond the problem, right. And I don't want to see my kids struggle. And so she has started saying, that that's not helpful, mom. That's just not helpful what you're saying or what you're doing, it's just not helpful. I say, Okay, well, what would be helpful, it gives me the cue to kind of step out of my own stuff, and be available to what absolutely kids need, what that specific kid needs in that specific time. And she will probably cringe if she heard me call her a kid at this point. Mike it out. 22, you're not, oh, I have a 22 year old too. It is kind of like, Oh, I'm not ready to adult, but don't call me a kid, right. They're just sort of hovering in that space of transition. Again, so many transitions. And I think that works too, for even younger kids than teenagers. I really want to help you. I'm here, I want to help you do whatever you're struggling with. But you have to let me know how I can help you, you have to let me know if what I'm doing isn't helping you. I think younger kids too, can really be effective at that as well, a lot of times, and sometimes not. Sometimes they're just going to be over emotional overwhelmed, and just stuck. And they're not going to be able to say oh, what you're doing is not helpful, there's going to be able to say, Ah, screaming and trying to get away from it. But I think many times that can really can be helpful for all kids. And it's certainly helpful for us as parents, because one of the things that we struggle with is what their experience is like. And when they can say to us, that's not helpful. It's giving us insight into them and how their brain is working and what they're really struggling with, which is, the ultimate writing that we need to know,

Jeannine Jannot 27:10

it's a two way street as well, if we can give them insight into where we're coming from. So my go to my daughter is always Alright, this is coming from a place of stress and anxiety, I'm worried about x. And, and that's me offloading my stress onto you, and I apologize, but that's where it's coming from. I love you, I'm worried about you, I can see and understand why that's not helpful. But I also need her to understand, I'm not doing it just to be a crazy woman. I'm doing it because there's something about it that's causing an emotional response in me. So in that communication process, if you can kind of keep at it, you get sort of this complimentary self regulation that can start to occur, where you can kind of like off ramp, before things get out of control before somebody loses their temper or says something or storms off, or whatever the outcome might be. That's not helpful. I think we can get better at having challenging, important conversations without it ending in conflict.

Penny Williams 28:15

And that too, it's just setting up again, collaboration with our kids, which is what that relationship should be that dynamic should be collaborative, so much more helpful than authoritarian, or, commanding that things be so that never works out well. Now, especially with teens, but it with any kid, I thought it might be fun to wrap up and just mention one thing in each level, so elementary, middle and high school and college, that parents should either what's the most important thing to focus on one thing? or What should we be doing at those different ages? Sure. So Elementary, what would be your go to one piece of advice for elementary for parents?

Jeannine Jannot 29:03

More play more breaks, less structure? Less parental oversight?

Penny Williams 29:08

Hmm, yes.

Jeannine Jannot 29:09

Let our kids brains do what they need to do. They need to be upside down and moving and touching and experiencing and growing. That's how they're learning.

Penny Williams 29:20

Mm hmm. That is learning, middle school,

Jeannine Jannot 29:24

Middle school, I think Middle School is the time that I find a little more stressful because this is particularly where we are right now with remote learning still being a factor with social distancing, all that stuff. Pay attention to your child's social needs, because that's the developmental stage where they're very attuned to their peers and social standing social interactions. They're learning and finessing a lot of stuff in their brains going through a lot of changes at that point. So being very respectful There needs socially in those middle school grades

Penny Williams 30:05

to a lot of social emotional learning, high school,

Jeannine Jannot 30:09

High school autonomy. This is where we need to start pulling back. Because if we don't, we're sending our kids off to college not quite ready, even if they're super bright, even if they have strategies, if they haven't been able to get themselves up in the morning, make appointments for themselves, do all the things that is on top of what they have to deal with just dealing with a new roommate, maybe living in a new city, being an independent student, all those things, that's a lot. And I see a lot of really bright kids fall apart that first year. So as much independence I actually tweeted this morning, like a what if all parents went on strike one day and didn't wake up their high school students? What would happen? I mean, would like 70% of students be late? Would they be tardy for school that day?

I mean, what an interesting thought. And how would schools respond to that? But I think we need to think that way is like, Okay, so what if we pull back on a few things? And what would that look like? And are the expectations even reasonable? So I think giving them as much control so they can out of that they will build their competence, which is going to drive their confidence up as a student and as an individual.

Penny Williams 31:26

It's so time for more scaffolding and less hands on, from parents to when we pull back, we're also giving them the message that we think they're capable of so whereas when we're micromanaging, they get the message that we think they're not evil. So really, really important there to agree. And lastly, college, oh, college?

Jeannine Jannot 31:48

Well, I'm in week two of my youngest going off to college, and she's sick. I know. So, from a college standpoint, I think one of the hardest things is allowing them to really have free rains, and to make a lot of mistakes. And to keep those expectations reasonable. We are there for them. I think that's the message we need to say as parents, but we have confidence, they can figure it out. So I think the college student needs to go off and be able to say to themselves, and believe it, I can handle this. So I think starting at least that second semester of senior year, that's when at the latest, a lot of these changes need to start being put into place so that young person can truly believe I can handle this, and know that they have the love and support available to them if they need it. And as parents, we have to tell ourselves, that's my job. My job is more to witness now than to manage, I will witness your life. I will support you. I'll be there when you ask that I'm not going to come in and do it for you.

Penny Williams 33:00

And for those of us who are typing parents, it's really hard transition is hard. Like I said, we're sleeping as well, I usually do. It's just part of the process. I remember when my daughter started college, and that first weekend, I get a text with a picture of the washing machine, which is like coin operated or something and totally something she's never seen before. And she's like, Mom, I need help with my laundry. And I thought, Oh, boy, I have not done my job. Like, right away. It was she looked at the machine and went, Oh, I need mom, right? Instead of, Oh, I can figure this out. And wow, I didn't do my job well, but and it's an opportunity for us to help them to, we have to put that back. I had to volley that back and say, What do you think? What do you think you should try first? What do you think is potentially going to turn this machine on? Instead of just saying, and I didn't know the answer. I hadn't, wasn't standing there trying to use that machine, either. Or, it was new for me too. I've done coin laundry in 25 years, right? So, it was that instinct to go directly to mom. That was the issue there. Right? She needed to first try to figure out herself and then if that was still a problem, hey, I'm totally available. Rght? I've got your back. Instead of I'm gonna figure it out for you.

Jeannine Jannot 34:36

I had the same experience with my daughter. And it took probably that whole first year for her to wait, it was really her weaning herself off of me. Because it was I think it was a default, like without even thinking it's like you need to know about this. I need to ask you about this. I need you to tell me how to do this. And again, I did the same thing, kind of put it back and say I'm pretty sure you can figure this out or whatever. I think it's a comfort level they have to get comfortable with that.

Penny Williams 35:03

And it's funny her her last semester, she hasn't come back for this last one yet. But the last one, where she was at school, in her apartment building, she was doing laundry. And she'd saw two younger girls who obviously were new to the building, staring at the washing machine. And she actually went over and helped out, and she was like, it's not just you. It's hard. Here's how you do it. because she'd been that person. And she really wanted somebody to help her. And there was nobody there at the time. And so that was amazing that she was like, Oh, I recognize it. And I'm going to be helpful, which is just awesome. So we could go on for days about talking about education and our kids, right. And we are so out of time. So I just want to encourage everyone to check out Shane's book, and website and coaching that she offers by going to the shownotes where we will link everything in that regard as well as anything that we've talked about resource wise, during our conversation. The Show Notes for this episode are at parentingADHDand autism.com/142 for Episode 142. And thank you again so much for being here. I really appreciate it. I know everyone has learned a ton from your wisdom and experience. And with that, we'll end the episode. I'll see everybody next time. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining me on the parenting ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses, parent coaching and Mama retreats at parentingADHDandautism.com.

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