PAP 141

Motivating Bright but Bored Students

with Alex Hargrove

Many students with ADHD are underachievers or gifted underachievers. They are bright but don’t do well in school. Alex Hargrove JD — author of “Reversing Underachievement: A Practical Guide for Parents of Underachieving Gifted Children,” is one of those students. He graduated high school with a 2.2 GPA and a real disinterest in school and learning. Yet, he went on to get a law degree and co-found a multimillion-dollar company. In this episode of the Parenting ADHD Podcast, Alex shares what sparked his eventual school success and what parents can do to help their underachieving students find their own spark.


Resources in this Episode

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My Guest

ALEX HARGROVE

I was a 2.0 GPA student in high school. This is the story of how I turned that around in college, and how you can help your child do the same. I originally wrote the book my senior year in college. I have since gone on to graduate law school on a large scholarship, cum laude, and co-found a multi-million dollar company (netlawgroup.com). I have also been awarded a United States Patent with more pending. My effort to reverse my own underachievement has thus proven to be a success.

Thanks for joining me!

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Alex Hargrove 0:03

I thought it was all me. I thought I was just not one of the smart kids. I was just not one of the good kids. There was something wrong with me. I'd get detentions every year and I mean, I wasn't a bad kid. I wasn't like in school starting fights or anything like that. I was just, I like to say misunderstood kid who got a label. And you know how those labels go, they can stick.

Intro 0:27

Welcome to the parenting ADHD Podcast, where I share insights and strategies on raising kids with ADHD straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, ADHD a Holic and mindset Mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams 0:57

Welcome back to the parenting ADHD podcast. I'm really excited today to have a conversation with Alex Hargrove, and we're going to talk about motivating, bright, but bored students. Something that most of you who are listening can relate to. I certainly could relate when my son was in school as well. And I can't wait to get Alex lived perspective on this. So, welcome to the podcast where you start just by introducing yourself. Let everyone know who you are and what you do.

Alex Hargrove 1:29

Yes. Hi, my name is Alex Hargrove. I am the Chief Technology Officer at net law. NET law.com a company I co founded, actually with my father who has been practicing estate planning, wills trusts, that sort of thing. Except sort of for the Uber rich for about 30 years. About 10 years ago, when I graduated law school, he and I he quit his job at a big law firm. And we went all in on this startup called net law. We've won an American Bar Association Award. Within six months, I taught myself to code took over the technology side, haven't practiced law in probably well, since I graduated, I did pass the bar exam. And we've been doing that for the last nine years. And we're now about to relaunch combined, he's got a law firm as well. And we're going to provide online estate plans where you can see an attorney on zoom in all 50 states at a much cheaper price than what you get with an attorney. But at a premium above what you'd pay for like a Legal Zoom service where you're doing it yourself because in this case, you're actually getting to see an attorney.

So that's what I've spent the last 10 years on what's brought me here is I was a 2.2 GPA student in high school. I was certainly not somebody that people well, people might have thought I would start a company or do something crazy, but I was very much a classic underachiever. You know, D's in math class, much more interested in being a class clown, getting people to laugh, creating distractions, then I was in, learning and memorizing things. And for most of my life, a young life at least I thought it was all me. I thought I was just not one of the smart kids. I was just not one of the good kids. There was something wrong with me. I'd get detentions every year. And I mean, I wasn't a bad kid. I wasn't like in school starting fights or anything like that. I was just, I like to say misunderstood kid. Yeah, who got a label. And you know how those labels go, they can stick. And especially I was in a small Christian private school that kind of had its own bit of claustrophobia to it, if you will. And then you mix that very rigid school with, a reputation you get early on as being the one who goofs off and the jackass basically. Sorry, pardon, you're fine. But you say that, but yeah, you get the idea. And that reputation follows you.

So it wasn't until I got in college. And that's what brought me here, I believe on the show is a book I wrote in college after a professor named Dr. Rin, who I believe she is at a university in Texas right now. I'm not going to guess at the name of the one but she changed my life. I was about ready to drop out of college at the time. I was hating it, I was doing mediocre. I was at a state school didn't really see the point in it. And she saw me reading in the back of her creatively gifted children class. So I had to take as an elective, this class, so this one had some spots. So I just arbitrarily took it on creatively gifted children and like half the class was focused on gifted children that underachieve because they're not identified early in life, certain traits overexcite abilities to broski those type of theories and looking at how somebody that has that type of mind but doesn't get identified early can end up on the wrong track. And then you get labeled and then you never realize that the kids actually, just bored out of his mind. So she gave me an opportunity. She realized I was arguing with her as if I was very well read on the text but was mostly just ignoring what she was saying. And I guess she thought this guy must have some smarts to him and his grades aren't good. So there's something there. She got me in the back door if you will have an honors program at Western Kentucky University. And from that day forward, I made straight A's went on to law school. For my senior thesis I wrote a book about it called reversing underachievement, a practical guide for parents. And it's basically my experience a ton of research that I did. But I'm not an expert on any of these topics, consult your own expert, before relying on my advice. But I think what the book is, it's a it's an illuminating account of one child who's really been put through the wringer. I mean, I was very blessed, very fortunate child growing up, I have not put through the wringer by life in that regard. Yeah, but by the school system Very much so. And then how I just internalize the process of turning that around, and what things I did such as getting in very small classes, watching YouTube videos, instead of reading books, there's a whole panoply of things we can talk about, that were sort of tools that worked for me to completely turn things around and tools I still to this day, use in my business.

Penny Williams 5:59

Yeah, it sounds like it started with this one teacher. And this one course that sparked something for you to sort of, I guess, help you to realize that you weren't necessarily a screw up you. You just learned differently.

Alex Hargrove 6:15

You got it. And it was realizing the new label I got was, somebody with a men's IQ that had a 2.2 GPA that's called gifted under achievement. Yeah, that's an actual thing. It's like, wait a minute, I'm gifted. Well, hold on, I could do bigger things, then Wow. Oh, my gosh, it was like this woman, let me discover this newfound power. And God bless her for it, and then helped me nourish it and helped me. You know, she's like, forget reading the textbook. So I watched YouTube videos of like Harvard professors or Yale professors. YouTube was just still coming out at the time that you could watch lectures from really, really good schools. And so I'd watched lectures online for more interesting professors, and then go argue with my professors, and ended up getting A's because I was the only one that seemed to care, yeah, just sit up front, and you actually care, because you're engaging with the material. That really goes a long way, then there were little things like, not little for me, if I took a multiple choice test, I would almost certainly not do, well, rote memorization, multiple choice seemed arbitrary, I could always see one answer versus the other and never quite decide. It's essays that I excelled at. So I was a philosophy major is what I actually ended up doing in college, and I just structured my schedule.

So if there was a class, I was going to have multiple choice tests or rote memorization type test, I would drop it within the first week. If the class was all essays, then I made sure I cared about the subject. Right. And that was really big for me, I made sure I took things that at least a modicum of interest in. So that I knew if I had that interest, I could sort of follow that interest. And in my book, I call it the learning like Leonardo method. After Leonardo da Vinci who's I was supposed to, he was always following his interest from one thing to the other, never really finishing any particular one that he started on at a given time, but was always working on whichever plate seemed the most promising that he had spinning. I'm mixing metaphors here. And that was mean, I realized don't force myself to read one book, keep five or six books around. And I kind of hopped between based on what I'm interested in and, stay after class and talk to that Professor about what interested me and what I was reading and wow, watch how that changes the dynamics in the class. And then the label of underachiever. Well, that you know, bounces off when you become an honors student. And suddenly, you're in graduate level classes with students who are also called honors students, and you get the benefit of the doubt all of a sudden, which I had never gotten.

Penny Williams 8:46

Yeah. And you know, when you're engaging with professors, they're taking an interest in you, but you're also getting that feedback that your thoughts and ideas matter, and that they're worthy of somebody listening to and engaging in. And that's just so powerful for self esteem. You know, I'm sure that in high school, when you were bored, and you were underachieving, you probably didn't have great thoughts about your own academic potential. And now you've figured out a way to sort of engage with school that was meaningful for you, and that actually helped you to succeed.

Alex Hargrove 9:24

It did. And indeed, once I realized I could do things academically, I had never even thought about where I'd go to college. It was like, oh, that says, go to college here. And I guess I do this next. Yeah. And then why am I here, but all of a sudden, I'm like, wow, I want to go to one of these elite schools. So I made it my goal to get into Harvard for law school. And I ended up two or three points short on the outset to get there but I got into Washington and Lee law school and I got a pretty close to full ride scholarship there. Save me hundreds of 1000s of dollars now and what I would have had to pay back after tax but yeah, so yeah, it's it's a story of absolutely You can turn it around. And for me, the most important piece of advice I could give in that book is listen to your child. And like take the pressure off some, I mean, high school, so what it's high school to middle school, you can absolutely recover from those things. And the biggest damage that could happen at that age is the scarring. That can happen, like being anxiety problems that can be created by the school, allowing the school to overpressure your child or to make your child feel bad about themselves. But one of my messages just never, ever let the school make your child feel bad about themselves. And you know, if that happens, find them another school, or get involved or do something, but try to take your child side and especially if it's, a matter of grades or something like that, because their self esteem is much more important than whether they you know, can pass math class that particular time.

Penny Williams 10:53

Yeah, and I'm so glad you brought that up. But with the self esteem being most important, but also taking the pressure off, it was something I kind of learned the hard way, with my own son, who is definitely a classic gifted under achiever, because he has learning disabilities. And so while he was obviously extremely intelligent, and very verbally fluent, his output, the testing, the essays, all of those things that he was supposed to do to show that he was learning it and he was smart, he was not good at. And so he very much got those messages that he wasn't capable, and that he, he didn't internalize that as not being smart, even though, I could prove to him on paper that he was very, very smart. And so when I realized that if I took the pressure off, it would be a relief to him that, that that I believed in him. And I believe that maybe the situation wasn't a good fit for him. But that I knew that he was smart. And I knew that he would do great things at some point, right? Even though he wasn't good at school, I knew that he would do great things and taking the pressure off, I was communicating that to him in a really meaningful way. And I was also preserving my relationship with him, which so often we sacrifice for school achievement, which is bizarre to me when I step back and look at it now. Because as you said, it's not as important as we make it out to be, you can be a successful adult, even if you didn't do well, in school, even High School, even if your GPA was terrible when you graduated high school, you can go on to do great things. And you're an example of that. And it's just so powerful for parents to really adopt that mindset and be able to give their kids some relief.

Alex Hargrove 12:40

Boy, that's nail on the head. If there was one takeaway from my short book, it's preserve that relationship with your child above all else, and nurture their confidence, if they're not good at school, find something they're good at. Yeah. And watch them do well at it. I mean, my kids confidence was kind of down when we moved a few years ago. And so I took him to a fortnight tournament. And he did well in it like, like one of these bigger Rena thing. And, and you know what, he had an extra little snap to his step. Yeah. Thereafter, I'm not saying go out and send your kids to play video games. Like, that's a great thing. But just he needed something to get caught, then it's under his belt. And you know, be pragmatic about it.

Penny Williams 13:18

Yeah. And that interest is so important to do that with our kids with ADHD, because their brain is ignited by interest in urgency, and not really important. And so while school is important, and they know it, it doesn't help them focus on it and get excited about it. And we have to take those things that they are excited about, and use them to build their confidence to build self esteem to show them that we believe in them. You know, I think that's such a big piece of what you're talking about too, is just making sure that our kids recognize that we believe in them and for us to believe in them to, like we have to get there also, it has to be genuine,

Alex Hargrove 13:55

it's a new world. I was gonna pull up one quote from this. I wasn't planning to read from my book, but I think this is appropriate here. Yeah, in summarizing at the end, I say the industrial revolution is a thing of the past, a new revolution, a creative revolution has taken its place and us job markets have changed significantly as a result, today, degrees by themselves are no longer worth very much. What is now valued instead is demonstrated creativity. In other words, the traits that characterize creatively gifted children are highly valued in this new job market. And I wrote that probably 12 or 13 years ago, or longer, getting older now. And it's absolutely come to fruition. I work in that creative economy.

Now. I have a multiple doctors diagnose me with ADHD. I've taken medication in the past. That's actually how I found out I had a high IQ relative to my GPA. They had to give me an IQ test to make sure lack of IQ wasn't the problem. Yeah, with my bad grades. And then my parents were like, Whoa, what is this? Something's off here and I never made anything of it until that Professor in College told me but I can't tell you how many people I know, make their money on the internet and my life, I don't sit down and do busy work, I had to go through a period where you got to just bite your lip, you got to figure out how to do it, whether you have to take medication or whatever your plan is, there's a point in your life where you've got to just buckle down and do some work. Some real work, I'll call it but I mean, my life now I spend half my day exercising, because I think so much better when I exercise. Yeah, I don't need medication to do my job. Because I hire people on a contract on a fresh, I can go out and find somebody to do anything I need on the Internet at my company. And there are people creating content and making a living out of that on various social media. I mean, there are just so many outlets now that didn't exist before. For people with a creative bent. Yeah, so I don't want to step into the whole medical side of ADHD, I'm just staying completely with my own account. Yeah. But the times where I've tried to treat ADHD as a problem for me, has ended up putting me into a rat race with everybody else, where I'm sort of handicapped a bit because I have to take a medication in order to compete with them. And those have problems and side effects and long term tolerance and that sort of thing. But when I'm over here, and in my sort of normal state, a more creative state more right brain if that that term is not specific, but you know, the idea, my output is so much higher. There's all these things I can do in terms of synthesizing tons of information, rapidly picking up on concepts and being able to zoom in and zoom out on issues like see things from the high level strategy down to the most minute detail, but only when it's a super important minute detail. And that's why I'm zoomed in on it otherwise, somebody else's dealing with that. It's like, I can't do the same things as them better. But boy, I can do these other things. And these other things now are really valuable in this new economy we're in right now.

Penny Williams 16:56

Yeah, and what I'm hearing you say is that you crafted a life where you could succeed, exactly figured out what you were good at what you are passionate at, you are able to really hone in and focus on those things and enjoy those things. And the things that come with it that you're not interested in, or not great at, you're finding someone to help you with that. You're, you're hiring it out, or you're you know, looking to someone else for maybe advice or whatever it is, but you've figured out how to live well with the way that your brain works. And that's really what we're trying to do as parents is help our kids navigate and figure out what that looks like for them. And there's so many ways to be creative, too. I you know, we tend to think of creativity as the arts. But really just thinking differently thinking in a more complex way, sometimes thinking about a solution to a problem that isn't the obvious solution. All of that is creativity too.

Unknown Speaker 18:00

As is writing, I would say writing is my big forte. So I run a technology company. I'm a Chief Technology Officer, but I use a Chromebook to do most of my work on because I live in Google Docs, I communicate with everyone by or slack by writing, my team's all remote, and we communicate on zoom. But most of my job is about being able to communicate ideas effectively in writing. And you know, if it's a teacher telling you, you got to write something about something you don't care about. That's one thing, but if it's my own idea, and I need to make sure other people get it done up to my ridiculously high standard for how it should look or function, I absolutely write it I have no problems. I don't need any medication. I can sit down and write pages after pages. And there are lots of outlets to you know, like, I've gotten, I got on Twitter a few months ago and built up a little group of people on there. And it's it's just been fascinating. It's given me an outlet. I'm on there just writing all the time. Just little things. Sometimes we'll do threads and it's you get really quick feedback from people. By the way, Hargrove at Hargrove. Ha RG r o v. e. Alex, do you want to follow me on Twitter, but you know, there are all sorts of those outlets now for people to just express what's in their mind to think it's a process of getting the child to want to think, finding something that gets them thinking, it doesn't matter much what that something is, if you can find an interest in them, boy, you go nurture that thing.

Penny Williams 19:26

Yeah. And the idea of sort of debate keeps coming up in what you're talking about. When you're super interested in a subject and you're reading a lot about it, you're writing a lot about it, finding people that you can discuss it with and have conversation and have that back and forth can really sort of feed that excitement to, for our kids to find other people who are kind of their tribe who have similar interests who get excited about a similar topic can be really motivating, I think for a child to keep pushing and to keep Keep on sort of that path of digging deeper maybe in that topic or whatever it might be, but just finding people who, who are somewhat similar in that interest can be really motivating to, I think, totally agree. Yep. So let's talk a little bit about what do we do as parents when our kids just seem super, super unmotivated, and we just can't seem to find that thing that's gonna spark we keep telling them how important school is, maybe we've decided to take the pressure off, and we quit telling them how important school is, and we just want to get through it. Right, but we're trying to help them find that thing that is going to spark for them. What advice you have for those parents?

Alex Hargrove 20:42

Oh, my gracious, I was freewheeling with advice when I was 21 years old, writing this book, now being 37 years old, with kids of my own, and one who's six years old, and exhibiting are about to turn six exhibiting all the signs of his father, I worry, what will I do? He ends up in that situation you just described, I write in my book, about getting TVs away, about, turning those off and saying, Hey, we can replace it with virtually anything you want. But let's turn this off. Because I think finding ways to cut off the cheap dopamine, what I call it, when they're getting fed rabid images, and it's triggering chemicals in the brain, and that's why they scream or get upset when you take away the screens. I think I say this now having a kid thinking, Oh, my God, if I had to take away off his screens. I'm much more cagey in my advice now that I have to actually eat my own dog food. But

Penny Williams 21:43

There's balance.

Alex Hargrove 21:44

Yeah, I think and, and I'm looking to do that with my son. You know, frankly, he's been out of school for the last month, my wife and I've worked from home. And the best I can do sometimes is well play the learning games on your iPad instead of the Sonic the Hedgehog. So I'm certainly guilty of that, too. I mean, I can see it with both my kids. It's I think it's a brain thing. You know, it's, you're getting these apps and games and stuff are designed to keep you really engaged. Absolutely. You know, I've read a lot of the science on that these companies, actually, I'm sure you've seen the documentaries in your audience as on the social networks and stuff. And these companies hire people to make the apps addictive. It's the variable reward going back to the app, and sometimes not getting something great. But sometimes getting something that's great. That is what gets you hooked on these things. And that feedback loop is in the all of the games. And then they use notifications and stuff to trigger the brain going Oh, returned back to app, repeat feedback loop, and so on. So in, those things are so easy when your life's not going well to get sucked into. So I think if there are problems, that would be a good place to start. But you can't do that with the child hating you. So that's the hard thing, right? I say in my book, you've got to do it with their permission. And looking back, I'm thinking man, that seems kind of naive, that I'm gonna get my kid to give me permission now to get rid of TVs.

But with my oldest, I have managed to reach certain agreements like that, and just being very transparent and logical, talking to him about how great life can be at some of these universities relative to others, getting him to set more ambitious goals for himself. Yeah, and figuring out ways to get him to where he's got the you know, to increase his confidence that's with basketball, or maybe getting him somebody to do a private lesson with them to help get that confidence up there.

Penny Williams 23:37

Yeah, technology is certainly a double edged sword, but it's also here to stay. And we, as adults are using it, most of us in some way or another, it's at least keeping us organized, keeping our schedule, a lot of us work on computers, we work over the internet. And so it's finding that balance, I think, and for my own sign, that was where he really excelled. That was the only world at one point where he felt confident, was gaming. He was like the authority when he went to school kids wanted to ask him questions. And so you know, we knew that that it was important not to cut off the one thing at the time that he felt good about right and at the same time trying to find balance. So what else are you interested in? What else can we explore? But just being really open minded is a lot of what you're sort of advising for parents is be open minded about the way that they do school the way that they learn the way that they show their interest you know, maybe they are on YouTube for four hours straight watching videos, but they're watching it on you know, some physics the hang or something that's so entertaining.

Alex Hargrove 24:45

Yeah, look, I think YouTube's great. I'm talking more about your television that just sits there and plays drivel yeah at them or the stupid games on their iPad that they can drown out in all day. My son is the fortnight guy so Yeah, totally. Do you know he's he's proud, he does some gaming, but he's also doing well at school. So it's a, it's a balance for him. Right, exactly. But yeah, I say in the book, you should get your child a laptop as sort of part of the bargain. And I think that was a bigger deal back, 12 years ago, that you're gonna get your child a nice laptop than it is now, they probably all have one. But yeah, give them some way to engage with YouTube and, find a more meaningful content to engage. I mean, I've sent countless videos to my now 13 year old and said, Hey, if you want to play games throughout the day, that's fine. But just take an hour and watch this lecture. And it won't be like a boring lecture, it'll, it'll be something with somebody, maybe they swear a few times, or you know, maybe it's sort of edgy on something, just to get his attention, say, Well, what did you think about that? And I got him to where, talk to me for five minutes about it after you watch it, and you go back to doing whatever you want.

Penny Williams 25:49

Exactly. Yeah, finding that balance. And that just reminded me we've subscribed to masterclass, recently, my son graduated in January from high school, and he's just trying to find his interest and find his way. And so there was a lot of music, people and actors, because he wants to either do music or voiceover, he thinks. And so I said, Look, there's all of these really cool classes, but they're not really like classes, they're little 10 minute or 15 minute videos, they're by famous people, they're well produced. And there's so many different topics in there that they can really just explore so much, and see what sort of spark see what they connect with, see what they're interested in learning more about. And then they can go on the internet, or wherever and find more information or the library and get some books, which I don't know that anybody researches that way anymore. But that's what we did. Because we didn't have technology, right? We wanted to know something, we found a book. But yeah, just giving them lots of opportunities to figure out what is it that makes them want to learn, want to learn more, because in school, they're told what they have to learn. And that was my son's biggest hang up in high school, what he was being told he had to learn had no meaning for him. He didn't connect with that he didn't understand why, he had to learn trigonometry, right, and things like that. But he could either use a calculator for or would probably never use in anything that any sort of occupation that he was considering. And so give your kids the opportunity to learn in areas that is meaningful to them. And I think that can really help them to connect why learning is important at school to for some kids, just really opening it up, the whole world is available now. Online.

Alex Hargrove 27:38

Let me ask you, yeah, have you used audible? Have you tried audiobooks?

Penny Williams 27:44

We did, we did Bookshare, which is actually a free audio book that will do highlight and sync on an iPad or a computer. And we did some of that and not as engaging he's he's very much needs the dopamine of the video and the movement. And, he's he's much more visual and that way, but yeah, audible is fantastic, especially so many now are read by the authors. And I think it's more engaging that way. For me, at least I use Audible, constantly. Beyond, it's a great tool for kids with learning differences and adults with learning differences, but also busy people, I listen to books in the car, because that's when I have time. And that's how I can do it. And yeah, that's a really good point, too, is helping kids engage maybe in reading in a different way.

Alex Hargrove 28:35

A hack I discovered in college, when I got into i can't i still to this day, have a hard time sitting down and reading a regular book, like every page, I turn, the time goes slower and slower. But with audiobooks, I would lose my train of thought on that too. But then I realized I put it on like one and a half speed. Yeah. And sometimes even faster, depending sort of what frequency my brain happened to be operating on that day. I was like, wow, I can get through some of these. I mean, I'll listen to podcast on like two times speed and comprehend the podcast. But if I tried to listen to it on one time, speed, I'd get bored and distracted and be doing something else. So I don't know, it's worked. I've got a couple 100 books probably on Audible. And it's been the single greatest investment, I'd say I've made it myself, just keeping a little earbud in my ear. A lot of times it gets on my wife's nerves, to do it too much at home, but always listening to something.

Penny Williams 29:24

Yeah, no, I have those people in my life to always listening to something. My husband could not get any work done if he didn't have music in his ear constantly. That just helps him to focus and sort of chill out a little bit. You know, it gives him something for his brain to keep going a million miles an hour, which actually helps him to focus for me, I'm very different and I cannot write if there's any sound at all. Anything like even birds chirping is too distracting for me. And it's just, the way that my brain works and it's totally different and it's such a good example for parents to to realize That we all learn differently. We all focus differently. And we just have to engage in what works for our kids and what works for ourselves and be more of a mind and not focus so much on maybe how I did things in school because for me, it was like, everything had to be turned off. If I was going to study for my kids, they both need something running in the background, to focus and to study and to do homework. And if I had stuck to my idea of what works and doesn't work for schoolwork and studying, they wouldn't have been able to succeed because it wouldn't work for them. That's a great, exactly, really important point. Yeah, that we really have to let our kids sort of lead us and what's going to work for them, what they are interested in what they need from us, rather than sort of pre determining what we think they're going to need to be successful. I couldn't agree more. This has been such an insightful conversation. I always enjoy talking to teens and adults who struggled in school but found their way. I think it's so inspirational. It gives us so much hope as parents of kids who were are struggling in school, which so many of our kids with ADHD ER and I thank you so much for sharing some of your story and putting yourself out there, it's not easy to share some of those hard moments that we've lived through. And there's so so valuable when we share our story with others. I thank you so much for doing that here and sharing with the parenting ADHD audience. I do want to let everyone know who's listening, that there are links to Alex's website social media ways to connect and learn more from him his book on the show notes for this episode. And you can find those show notes at parentingADHDandautism.com/141 for Episode 141. And with that, we'll end the episode. Thanks again, Alex.

Alex Hargrove 31:59

Thank you Penny.

Penny Williams 32:01

See everyone next time.

Thanks for joining me on the parenting ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses, parent coaching and Mama retreats at parenting ADHD and autism.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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