Dayna Abraham [00:00:03]: I would much rather call it challenging behavior than a misbehavior. You know? They're misbehaving and they're being naughty or they're being bad. It is a challenge for adults around them to understand because While I wish we lived in a world where everyone understood each other, we just don't yet. And so it is a challenge when they go to school. It is a challenge when we go to the grocery store.

Penny Williams [00:00:27]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast where I share insights and Strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to the Beautifully Complex podcast. I'm really excited to have Dayna Abraham back with us On the podcast and this time, we're gonna talk about deescalating challenging behaviors. And I get asked so very often, What do I do in the midst of it? Because we talk about the fact that in the midst of it is not a teachable moment. We can't teach them.

Penny Williams [00:01:15]: We can't get them to calm down because we're helping them, and so these de escalation techniques are gonna be so super valuable. This is the information that parents are looking for, so I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. Dayna, will you start by Just letting everyone know who you are and what you do.

Dayna Abraham [00:01:35]: Yeah. So I am so excited to be here again. You know, I always love chatting with you. So I am Dayna Abraham. I am the founder and author of Calm the Chaos, a fail proof roadmap for parenting even the most challenging kids, and I help families Create better relationships where everyone in the family feels empowered, heard, and understood, not just the adults, not just the kids, but everyone involved.

Penny Williams [00:02:00]: I love that. And I'm finding that really feeling seen, heard, and understood is the most valuable tool that there is. It is totally the foundation of helping our kids feel better and do better.

Dayna Abraham [00:02:15]: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think, innately, all of us humans, that is our biggest desire, is to feel seen and heard for who we are and what we have to say. And we just wanna we want our voice to be heard. I think that that more and more, is becoming kind of the go to that all of us want and our children want so badly.

Penny Williams [00:02:40]: Yeah. Absolutely. Let's start with diving into what are we talking about when we say challenging behavior. Obviously, in The course of this podcast, we're talking about neurodivergent kids. So what does challenging behavior look like? And, of course, We always have to give this caveat. Every kid is different. Every family is different, but we can give some general terms here Of what we're talking about when we say challenging behavior.

Dayna Abraham [00:03:11]: Yeah. So this challenging behavior can vary depending on who you are and what your unique background is, and how many kids you have, and how many different needs are competing within the Same household, what you've dealt with within a day, and how this is kind of presenting itself with your child. So for example, 1 family might really struggle, 1 parent might really struggle when a child ignores any requests that they have, you know, refuses to do the things that they're asking to do. And no matter how calmly they ask, no matter How much they set up visual schedules and things like that, it just they feel ignored, and maybe they have some sort of Past history of feeling unseen, unheard by other people in their life, and so this, by their own child, is then triggering their own inner struggles. And so that might be way more challenging than a child who, as aggressive behaviors. So maybe they're hitting or kicking or spitting. I've seen some parents get really, really triggered by spitting, because the idea of bodily fluids being put on another person really sends them into a tailspin, whereas biting can be really triggering for another parent. So I think it can be very different depending on who we're talking about, the child we're talking about, and also the severity and the intensity of this behavior when we're talking about these challenges.

Penny Williams [00:04:48]: Yeah. I love that you brought up the fact that challenging behavior often triggers us as the parents or the educators, the adults in the room, Because that really does affect so much. It affects the way that we even think about the behavior, the language we use to describe it, The energy that we're putting into the situation. Right? Mhmm. But I also think sometimes challenging behavior It's just things like or or this is what people might call challenging behavior. It might be challenging to that person. Mhmm. Things like, Well, my kids should be able to do this.

Penny Williams [00:05:26]: They should be able to do that. They should, you know, be able to go to a neighbor's house and behave themselves. Whatever it might be, you can plug in anything there. But sometimes, I think it's about not understanding really how to meet our kids where they are Mhmm. And not yet accepting That maybe they can't do things the way that neurotypical kids do them, and we label that as challenging behavior.

Dayna Abraham [00:05:53]: Absolutely. And I don't think of challenging behavior or challenging kids as a bad thing. I think that it pushes us, it Challenges us to think differently, to try different things. If I was raising all neurotypical children, I might never have looked into sensory processing. I might never have had to understand about my own triggers and heal my own triggers. I might not have ever had to look into how to help their nervous system feel calm and safe because they would have been, quote, unquote, okay. Now they still probably would have struggled on the inside, but they would have made it through Right. Whatever test they were being put through.

Dayna Abraham [00:06:35]: And so I want people to hear when I call it challenging behavior, when I talk about even the most challenging kids, that's not a derogatory term in any way. It's something that pushes us and forces us, as the adults, to really take a different approach and to look at things differently. Mhmm. Because, Obviously, if there is a challenge, an obstacle, then we need to try a different way to Approach this situation instead of the way we've always done it.

Penny Williams [00:07:03]: Yeah. It's a clue or a signal. Like, I always think about it as a signal That something is challenging my kid. Mhmm. It's not that my kid is choosing to act in ways that make me upset Or feel personal. Mhmm. It's that something is going on, and it is signaling that to me, and I have to use it as a clue.

Penny Williams [00:07:23]: I think that's really important because I think you know, I hear a lot of parents sometimes get really upset when we say that our kids are challenging, And we're not saying, you know, that in a way that's really derogatory or judgmental. It just is. It is more challenging, And sometimes it is just a matter of us not knowing what's happening, not knowing about sensory things or other things yet. And when we know better, we do better.

Dayna Abraham [00:07:52]: Right? And I would say that I mean, just so that any listeners know, I am a neurodivergent adult myself. I grew up pushing the boundaries, pushing the norms of what my parents put in front of me, what educators put in front of me, And I challenged a lot of people to think differently and to look at things differently, and I still do to this very day. Even with this word challenging, It can be really triggering for some people. And so, you know, I I love that you're asking about this before we even dive into how to deescalate. Because I think If we look at the behavior as this thing that's against us, this thing that somehow makes our children, you know, worse off or something wrong with them, then we are gonna approach it from a very negative standpoint. But if we approach it as a clue, as a sign, as a dysregulation. Okay. Something is going on here.

Dayna Abraham [00:08:46]: Maybe my expectation is off. Maybe the environment isn't a good match. Maybe they have some worries or some excitement around what's to come, and that's causing them to cope in this way, to Act out in this way, and it's not that they're misbehaving. So I would much rather call it challenging behavior than a misbehavior.

Penny Williams [00:09:07]: For sure.

Dayna Abraham [00:09:08]: You know, they're misbehaving and they're being naughty or they're being bad. It is a challenge for adults around them to understand because While I wish we lived in a world where everyone understood each other, we just don't yet. And so it is a challenge when they go to School, it is a challenge when we go to the grocery store. It is a challenge when we go to in laws and they are telling us that we should just Discipline them more, or we should just be firmer with them, or we should, we should, we should, we should, we should, and that gap in our head within adds to the challenge as well.

Penny Williams [00:09:41]: Yep. Stop on yourself. Absolutely. Stop on your kid. Exactly. Yeah. So let's then shift now that we're kind of on the same page about what we mean by challenging behavior to how in the world do we deescalate it.

Penny Williams [00:09:56]: And I think maybe we need some dive a little deeper into what I said at the very beginning, which is that we can't use it as a teachable moment. Like, I think we need to define first what you can and can't do when you are in these situations with challenging behavior That is intense. If we're talking about deescalating, there's some intensity there going on.

Dayna Abraham [00:10:18]: Well, I think of one of my best kind of analogies as I think of a bomb in one of the, you know, latest thriller movies or drama movies, and there's a bomb that's gonna go off, And there's someone that's gotta diffuse the bomb and has got to deescalate the situation. They're not going into the bomb and talking to the bomb and saying, alright now, I need you to settle down. I need you to stop counting down from 10. No. Instead, they're going in really methodically. They're keeping their words to a minimum. They're making sure that everyone else has gotten to safety, And they're keeping their body movements to a minimum, and then they're making the tiniest adjustment and change to try to get the bomb to either not go off, or if it does, to minimize the damage. And I think what we have to do as parents when we're in these situations is we wanna have to deescalate ourselves.

Dayna Abraham [00:11:16]: So if we go into the situation, rip raring, ready to go and take care of the situation, then it's only gonna add fuel to the fire, and it's only gonna just make things harder for us and for our kids to settle. Yeah. And so we have to get rid of this idea that we're there to shorten the fuse, or we're there to keep the bomb from going off. A lot of times, we have to just know it's gonna go off, and we have to try to minimize the damage, and that means keeping ourselves calm. That means minimizing what we say, what we do. It's not about what you should do. It's not about asking 20 questions. It's not even about suggesting the tools that our kids should and shouldn't use.

Dayna Abraham [00:12:02]: If we're at that point, I call it the point of no return, there's this point where it doesn't matter what you say or do or How you involve you're still gonna have this big, huge tornado come through your house

Penny Williams [00:12:16]: Yeah.

Dayna Abraham [00:12:16]: You know, or classroom, whatever it is. And so how are you gonna get through that moment with as much connection and compassion and understanding and empathy as possible?

Penny Williams [00:12:27]: Yeah. It's so important. That's such a valuable analogy because you're right. We wouldn't go and start negotiating with a bomb. Right. It's an inanimate object. Right.

Dayna Abraham [00:12:36]: And Right.

Penny Williams [00:12:36]: And we can't go in there, you know, all gung ho and really physical and freaking out because we're gonna set off the bomb. Right? Like, we have To stay calm in that moment. And I think, you know, we talk about this all the time with parents, and it's very Hard to do. It's extremely hard to do. But it also is so crucial Yeah. To deescalating. You cannot deescalating if you're matching your kid's intensity. It will not happen.

Penny Williams [00:13:04]: Right?

Dayna Abraham [00:13:05]: Yeah. And so, You know, you have to, 1, normalize the fact that it's hard. I want everyone to know, it is hard to do this, and none of us were taught this growing up. Now our kids are being set up for success in the future when they become parents because they are being taught Through us learning ourselves how to deescalate things, our kids are being taught. So maybe they're not using their tools now, But in the future, they will be using them, and they are gonna use them when they become parents to be able to model and Show kids, like, this is how we deescalate. Right? But many of us I'm in my forties, and many of us who are in that age range were never taught how to handle our own emotions. It was just, you don't need to cry. Stop crying.

Dayna Abraham [00:13:53]: What's wrong with you? You're okay. Cut that out right now. Right? And a lot of us still will go to that extreme when we're triggered ourselves. We'll go back into those old habits and those old patterns. And so give yourself grace, and this is not a judgment. This is not shame on you. How dare you do this? It's very human of you to go into a protective mode and try to protect everyone else in the family and even try to protect your own kid. So Yeah.

Dayna Abraham [00:14:25]: One of my students in my program, when my book came out, she's been with us for years, and she goes, oh my gosh, I finally had an moment. When Dayna says, in the moment, stop doing everything, stop trying to fix, stop trying to solve, stop talking, stop moving, She's not just talking about the dangerous or the mean comments or the rude comments. She even means stop trying to, Well, do you want something to drink? Well, you should go to the bathroom, or what if we get you a tool, a sensory tool? What if you put your weighted blanket on? She's like, I realized that all of that was adding more stress to my kid in the heat of the moment. Yep. Afterwards, you can do those things. But in the moment, A lot of times, it's about saying, I hear you you really don't wanna go to school today. Yeah. I hear that you don't like me right now.

Dayna Abraham [00:15:16]: I know it's really hard. And as hard as it is to hear your kids say, I hate you, when you can validate, yep. I hear that you don't wanna go to school. Yep. I hear that you don't like that. Then they know that you're listening to them Yeah. And you're not just placating them. And then when you go back and you say, but I can't let you talk to me like that, well, they are talking to you like that right now.

Dayna Abraham [00:15:39]: This is not the teachable moment. So Right now, they can't hear you say, it's not okay to hit right now. It's not okay to do this. Afterwards, we can say, now remember, in our house, We treat everyone with love and kindness, and that means that we try to use our bodies in a safe way. And I noticed earlier when you were really upset, You were using your hands to get your way. You were using your body to show that you were angry. So let's work on some ways we can use our body when we're angry that don't involve other people. Maybe we could crash onto the couch.

Dayna Abraham [00:16:14]: Maybe we could crash onto these pillows. Maybe we could throw these stuffed animals instead of throwing our our brothers toys. But you're not doing that in the moment. That's not when you're teaching or holding your boundary or reiterating your rules. It's afterwards that you're reiterating. I kind of joked with a friend the other day, We have had so many natural disasters in the world right now, which is just heartbreaking, but it really does help bring home this point of riding the storm when we're in the middle of difficult behaviors or challenging behaviors with our kids. Like, we would never look at a tornado and be like, hey, tornado. Uh-uh.

Dayna Abraham [00:16:53]: We do not allow people to rip things off our wall and throw them around. Like, we can't sell a tornado that because it has no logic. Well, in the heat of the moment, our kids don't have that logic either.

Penny Williams [00:17:04]: either.

Dayna Abraham [00:17:04]: Yeah. They don't have that access, especially if we're just starting on this journey. Now As we've been working with our kids over time, they're gonna start to develop skills and strategies and habits that they're gonna get better at in the heat of the moment, then they're gonna be able to deescalate more on their own without your help. But right now, they need you to be that calm presence, you to be that safe place and say, alright. We're gonna hunker down. I see that you're Sat, I'm gonna wait it out with you. Yep. It's hard.

Dayna Abraham [00:17:37]: I know. I hear you. We can't talk about that right now. Sorry. We'll talk about it in a minute. Right? And you're just You're getting them through that moment. And then when everyone, yourself and them, are calm, and sometimes that's the next day Or 2 days later Yeah. That's when you can talk about this challenging thing that happened.

Penny Williams [00:18:01]: So there's no fixing. Mm-mm. There's no what else did I write? No teaching. And and I teach the same thing too. No talking during the meltdown. Yeah. You empathize. You validate.

Penny Williams [00:18:13]: You say I'm here for you, and then you stop Talking. Because that talking is just overwhelm. It's just adding because they can't process it.

Dayna Abraham [00:18:23]: Yeah. I like to think of it like, I have a bottled water right here. Right? And everyone's bottle is different. It's a different size, so it holds a different amount of water. And so when our kids are in that most challenging situation and they're starting to yell, scream, hit, kick, their bottle is already full to the top. It's already overflowing. So any touch, any word, any light, any sound, any input is just too much, And it'll make the bottle start breaking at the seams, and that's when you have disconnection happen. That's when you get kids that will yell, I hate you, or you never help me or you just always.

Dayna Abraham [00:19:04]: Right? They'll start using some of those terms and phrases because they don't have any more capacity to take in anything we're doing even if it's helpful. Yeah. Even if it's from a good place, from an affirming place, a loving place, We have to remove as many of those demands and requests and acknowledgments in that moment. I think of it also like just using all the metaphors today. But Yep.

Penny Williams [00:19:31]: Love it.

Dayna Abraham [00:19:32]: I think of it like having a sunburn and then putting an itchy sweater on top of the sunburn. It would be absolutely miserable. Mhmm. Well, that's what we're doing in the heat of the moment when we add anything else on top of what's going on other than just waiting it out. And so we talked about how this is so hard for us, and so we, as the adult, have to come up with strategies that keep us calm. So I've got a couple of those if you want me to go into

Penny Williams [00:20:03]: those. Perfect.

Dayna Abraham [00:20:04]: Yep. So the first one is having something that I call an anchor, which is something you can tell yourself, something you can hold, something you can touch. For me, I really like a sensory anchor myself that grounds me, and I have done this ever since I was a little girl. My brother is bipolar, so I was on the receiving end of the that challenging behavior at a very young age. And so I would actually use a pressure point right in between my thumb and my pointer finger, and I would just squeeze that little webbing on my hand, And I still would do that when my son would go into his aggressive fits. I would just squeeze that right there, and it gives enough of a little input for myself that it kind of removes me from thinking about maybe the scratch that he's doing or the hit or the yell or the I hate you. Having that little sensory anchor just helps me ground myself and be present in my own body. The other thing is Having something that I can say in my own head, like taking a deep breath, get oxygen to my brain, and then Say something like, now is not the time, or he doesn't mean it, or these are you know, he's not here right now.

Dayna Abraham [00:21:16]: And sometimes I mean, like, his logic Isn't here right now. His ability to reason right isn't here right now, and so I just need to be here with him while he's going through this hard time. It has to be something we believe because Yeah. You know, we all say all behavior is communication. All of us in this eco System, you know, trying to help parents who are struggling with these behaviors, this is very common to say all behavior is communication, But many parents, that's really triggering for them still. It's really upsetting. They're like, yeah. I I hear you that all behavior is communication, but this communication It's, like, really mean, and I have so much resentment.

Dayna Abraham [00:21:54]: And I don't wanna connect, and I don't wanna be here with them when they're saying these things or when they break my TV, or when they, you know, tell me I'm the worst parent ever. And so you need something else in that moment that's going to remind you that you can get through this.

Penny Williams [00:22:09]: Mhmm. Yeah. Mine was, he's not giving me a hard time. He's having a hard time. Because that then reframed Yeah. And got me in that brain based lens mode where then I could be calm and quiet and wait it out and know that there was no fixing and no teaching.

Dayna Abraham [00:22:26]: Yeah. Yeah. And it's about finding that one. And I always say practice while you pee. So, like, find that one anchor and then practice it. Like, While you go to the bathroom, practice it while you wash your hands. And imagine that difficult behavior happening. Imagine that challenging situation coming up And you just stopping with your feet, holding onto your hand or whatever you're doing with your body, and then taking that deep breath and saying that thing in your head.

Dayna Abraham [00:22:52]: Yeah. Right? And that will help you so that the next time it happens, it's more instinctual and habitual. Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:23:00]: And it does become instinctual and habitual. It does. And I noticed so many parents who are learning this, they're struggling with it, and they think I'm never gonna be able to be calm. There's no way in the world I'll ever be calm. You will be if you keep at it and you keep practicing it and you keep Just believing in the process, which is so hard when it's not giving us results right away. Yeah. But you can get there.

Dayna Abraham [00:23:27]: And it's focusing on those little tiny pieces of progress. I always tell people, don't judge your progress on your worst day. I just saw a post in a community just this morning that I was responding to, and someone said, this was so hard, I couldn't remain calm. Like, I this this doesn't work. And then she said, but the last time this happened, it was in June. And I was like, oh my gosh. Like, we're in September. It's been July, August, September.

Dayna Abraham [00:23:54]: It's been 3 months. That is a huge win. Focus on that, and then Don't focus on, well, we had another bad day, and so that must mean we're making no progress. You're gonna have another bad day. It's life. Right? But those bad days don't have to be what define

Penny Williams [00:24:11]: us. Yeah. And you can't to a place where it is your default. Mhmm. I mean, my default is to stay calm. Yeah. And The beauty of this is that it affects my entire life. It has benefited me in all areas of my life, not just as a parent.

Penny Williams [00:24:27]: Uh-huh. Because now I can problem solve when things come up for myself. Right? Because I'm able to stay calm. Yes. So this is like A human thing that benefits all of us. Absolutely. But it's also very crucial when we're dealing with tough times with our kids.

Dayna Abraham [00:24:43]: And then I have one more, if that's okay. Alright. Yeah. I'll do it really fast. So the last one is something that I think most of us don't think about. We think if we're not saying anything, then our kids should Obviously, calm down. Right? Well, we're not saying anything, I'm not moving, I'm not doing anything. But a lot of times, you know, people say a picture's worth a 1000 words.

Dayna Abraham [00:25:03]: Well, so is your face. Right? And so the the look on your face, the energy coming off of your body really tells a story, especially to our neurodivergent kids who are trying to read and understand and interpret what's going on around them. And so my son used to just assume that I was angry if he heard a groggy voice. He would assume that I was angry if he saw my eyes were, you know, furrowed. But a lot of times, it was my own stress about something totally unrelated. And so if he would ask, Well, what's wrong? Why are you mad? And I would say, oh, nothing. Nothing's going on. Well, he noticed something's going on, and so I have to then say, oh, you're right.

Dayna Abraham [00:25:48]: You know what? I'm really tired today. I think what you're noticing is I I haven't been feeling well, or I've been doing a lot of interviews. I don't have a voice right now. I think that's what you might be noticing. Or when I am upset, oh, you're right. Let me take a moment. Okay. Is this better? Right? And just changing my voice, doing a body scan from head to toe, where is it showing up that I'm frustrated, that I might have resentment, that I'm nervous, that I'm afraid, that I am fearful of what the outcome of this is gonna be because it's gonna show in our body language.

Penny Williams [00:26:25]: Mhmm. Our kids are mirrors for us. I think this is part of, Byron Katie's work. And I remember the change that that made for me in my own belief system About parenting. Like, wow. So much of what I am doing as a parent is about me. It's not even about my kids. Right? It's about me.

Penny Williams [00:26:51]: And being able to tease that apart, one, will help with being able to stay calm And purposeful in those challenging times. But, yeah, that so much of this work is really on us, the parents. We're the ones who need to change. Our kids are who they are. They do need to grow and build skills and things like that. Right? I'm not saying that nothing will ever change, but We're the ones who often are guiding that ship and not in a good way. Right? And I think that's really valuable for For parents to hear again and again and educators, you know, the way that and even just the way we talk to our kids, the way we talk, The facial expression we're making, the sound of our voice, as you were saying, can make all the difference in a situation. Absolutely.

Penny Williams [00:27:38]: The difference. And it's Really important to know that Mhmm. And to do that work for yourself so that you can show up in the ways that your kids need.

Dayna Abraham [00:27:46]: Yeah. Absolutely.

Penny Williams [00:27:48]: I am always so grateful for you sharing your time and your wisdom, Dayna, with us. I wanna make sure that everyone knows how to connect with you And learn more from you. You can go to the show notes for this episode at parentingADHDandautism.com/235 for episode 235. And I think, Dayna, you wanted to tell us about a workshop that's coming up. If you wanna do that now, and then we'll have a link in the show notes for that as well.

Dayna Abraham [00:28:17]: Wonderful. So we do have a free workshop coming up if you're listening to this live or when it first comes out. The workshop is going to be October 4th through 10th of 2023, I was had to remember the date. Oh. Like, what year? Yeah. I it's so hard to believe. It's almost over. I know.

Dayna Abraham [00:28:38]: So We're gonna be running our free 7 days to less chaos workshop. We run this once or twice a year live, and so if you're listening to this, I encourage you to come on over. We're gonna be Walking you through, the 4 steps to, you know, create calm with your family, the 5 stages to go from surviving to thriving as a family, and really create that empowered family team together, and then we're also gonna be creating a plan so that you can ride the storm, you know what to say and do in the heat of the moment, and you know how to get ahead of this challenging behavior before it starts to kind of spread into other areas of your life. So I encourage you to head on over there. You can go to calmthechaosworkshop.com to sign up, And just let us know that you came through Penny, and we will celebrate that and be so excited, that you came that way.

Penny Williams [00:29:29]: Awesome. Yeah. It sounds like it'll be a much deeper dive on what we've talked a little bit about here and really helping parents to Make a plan of action and implement and take action, which Absolutely. Is so needed. We talk so much about why things happen and stuff like that, and parents So you need to know, okay. I get it. Now what do I do? Right? And I sounds like that'll be really helpful for that. And, again, thank you.

Penny Williams [00:29:54]: This is the end of the episode, and I will see everyone next time. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDand autism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.