217: How to Talk to Kids About Hard Things, with Sara Olsher

Picture of hosted by Penny Williams

hosted by Penny Williams

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There are some tough and scary things in life that we need to talk to our kids about: divorce, serious illness of a family member, moving, death of a loved one, to name a few. As parents, we don’t want our kids to be hurting and often default to sharing as little painful information as possible with them. But, we do them a great disservice with that approach. Instead we need to be open and honest with them in an age-appropriate way. 

What is age-appropriate for these conversations? My guest, Sara Olsher, shares a step-by-step process of talking to kids about hard things that helps parents have the conversation they need to have in a way that works for the child too. We discuss removing the unknown factor, answering questions, and talking about how the child’s day-to-day life may change because of this circumstance. Not only does Sara have the knowledge, but she’s developed the tools for this process as well.


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My Guest

Sara Olsher

Sara Olsher is the founder and CEO of the family mental health and wellness company Mighty + Bright, and the author of ten picture books for kids coping with divorce, cancer, change, and big feelings. As a single parent and cancer survivor, Sara has seen firsthand that the universe can deal some pretty harsh blows. Her company, Mighty + Bright, provides tools meant to help overwhelmed parents prioritize mental health for their kids, learning together and incorporating coping skills into day-to-day life.



Sara Olsher 0:03

Sometimes stuff just sucks. It just sucks. And there's no silver lining, and there's no making it better. And glossing over that, or trying to make it better, can be really invalidating to our kids.

Penny Williams 0:22

Welcome to the beautifully complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to the beautifully complex podcast. I am so excited in this episode, to be talking to Sara author, about how to talk to kids about hard things, how to have conversations about things like family illness, divorce, moving things that are really just tough for every family to talk about. But I think sometimes there's even more complexity when we are talking to neurodivergent kids. So I think these are going to be really helpful tips and insights to have some of these really difficult conversations with our kids. Thanks for being here. Sara, I'm really, really thankful to have someone to give us some advice on this difficult topic. Can you start by letting everyone know who you are and what you do?

Sara Olsher 1:32

Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Yeah, yeah. So unfortunately, I become an expert in this because of personal experience, I went through a divorce when my daughter was almost two. And then when she was six, I was diagnosed with cancer. So I have a background in psychology, but I studied adults. And so when I went through this divorce, I really started looking into child development and learning more about how kids function and you know, executive functioning skills and like how you help a child through something, when they don't think the same way that we do. And so that's kind of began my journey into this kind of realm of talking to kids about hard things. And one of the big things that I learned in this process was how much visual structure really helps kids to cope with things no matter whether it's just day to day life, or if something more complicated is going on. Right. So my daughter is 12 now, but I introduced a co parenting calendar to her when she was to so that she could see when she would see her dad, and when she would see me with these little like drawings of a mom and a dad on this weekly calendar.

And it was a total game changer and really began my business which is called Mighty and bright. And from there, after I was diagnosed with cancer, I realized that there are so many more things that people are suffering through besides just divorce. And what if I could take the things that I learned during that divorce and apply them to all these different things, and so created a calendar for my cancer treatment so that my daughter could understand what was going on, I created some calendars for children who are dealing with cancer or their siblings or dealing with it. And then I created one for foster kids. And I just recently came out with one that's specific to autistic kids. So there's a weekly calendar and a routine chart and a hygiene chart, things that help kids with executive functioning. Yeah, basically, being a bridge to helping them understand things, it has completely transformed my parenting, my life, my daughter's life, it's really powerful. So a combination, I've written 10 children's books about topics like these. And the combination of being able to show kids with, you know, a book, which always stays the same no matter how we're explaining things, those words stay the same really helps them learn better. And combining that with a calendar that takes something that's really abstract and makes it concrete really helps kids understand what's going on.

Penny Williams 4:23

Yeah, and what I'm taking from that is that structure helps with the unknown, to make as little unknown as possible in times where there is a lot of unknown I mean, what we're talking about, there's inherently a lot of unknown with divorce with an illness, things like that. And so it's very interesting that as much as we can make known actually helps to sort of counterbalance that. It seems a little bit I love the when you use the word bridge, like to say, you know, we're sort of creating a bridge to help kids are just sort of Kinect, like where we understand as adults? And what's going to help them understand from where they are in their perspective? It's just such a powerful analogy to me. Yeah. And it is really what we're trying to do. You know, so often, our kids are not understanding or they're not able to complete tasks when you talk about executive functioning, and a lot of our neurodivergent kids really struggle with completing tasks or transitioning. And we often talk about visual schedules in our world, too. So it's one of these commonalities that I hadn't really thought of and considered before. It's really interesting. I want to start, I guess, by talking about, what do we say? How do we say it? How do we even get to the place, I think, for ourselves emotionally, to be able to have these hard conversations? Because it's tougher reason, right? There's a lot of emotional weight. There's a lot of unknown, there's maybe some fear going on there.

Sara Olsher 6:02

Yeah, I think getting to that place for parents is the hardest part. And when it's something like divorce, and something has very clearly changed, and there's no way to avoid the conversation, right? Most parents recognize that they have to figure out how to do it. But one thing I noticed, because I was 34, when I was diagnosed with cancer, and I went to a support group that was full of like octogenarians. And I was like, I feel very, like I have a completely different illness than these people who I mean, are obviously struggling, but I just felt really alone. And so I found a group of young people that were dealing with all different types of cancer. And many of us had kids. And one of the things that I started to notice was the number of parents who were just avoiding the conversation entirely, because they felt like they were protecting their kids. Yeah. And I think figuring out how to explain something that is maybe, I mean, honestly, so few of us really understand what's happening in our bodies.

So it's, it's kind of a hard thing to figure out how to explain. And so people just avoided it. But it's really important to talk about things when something is wrong, because kids understand, they can sense when things change, even if they aren't verbal, they can sense a change in the energy in your household, and they know that something is wrong. And the problem is that because of developmentally where they're at, the whole world revolves around them. And so when something goes wrong, they immediately internalize that and think it's their fault. And so this is part of why we have to put words to what's going on. Because if we don't, our kids are a, they know something's wrong. You're basically saying this isn't safe to talk about. So they don't bring it up because they get scared. And then they start telling themselves stories about what's going on. Instead of knowing the truth, in any situation in which a child is blaming themselves for something going wrong, is a bad situation. So yeah, even if it is hard for you to get up the courage, because it really does take courage to talk to your kids about something that you are scared is gonna break their heart, you have to get over it and do it.

And I just highly recommend getting yourself to a place where you can breathe through whatever feelings that you are having, so that you can get through the conversation, and really put yourself in your child's shoes and think about what is this going to do to them in their day to day, what is going to change their life so that you can think what is information that they actually need? Because when we talk about having age appropriate conversations with kids, I think that's really like kind of a confusing thing to say. It's like, oh, yeah, what is the age appropriate? Basically, age appropriate is like, what do they need to know without all the details, because the details are confusing. So for me when I was explaining this to my daughter, like, let's take the cancer, for example, because she was six. And I wanted to start out by explaining from a scientific point of view what cancer is, because when you are taking the unknown out of something and making it as factual as possible, it's less scary. Yeah. And so I explained to her that our bodies are made of tiny little things called cells that are basically like building blocks. But it's really cool because a cell unlike Legos, a cell can make a new one anytime it wants. And so our bodies are constantly making new cells and building new things and body parts and every cell has a job. But sometimes a broken cell is made and it doesn't know what its job is. And so it just starts making more and more of itself and it doesn't have a job. And all of a sudden, you have like this big old clump of guys that have no idea what they're supposed to be doing. And they are crowding out all the cells that have a job.

And basically, you want to take that out, because it's making it difficult for the other body parts to do what they're supposed to do. And I said, so like, this happens a lot in bodies, and most of the time, our bodies can get rid of the broken cells, sometimes there gets to be a clump of them. And we want to make sure that like a doctor can take it out so that it doesn't make it difficult for the body to do its job. So I explained that to her. And I said, Have you ever heard the word cancer before? Because you never know what kids have overheard at school or, you know, on YouTube, or whatever. And she was like, I think I've heard of that word, but I don't know what it means. And I said, Well, basically, that clump of cells is called cancer. But cancer can mean a lot of different things. And so people who hear that I am having this problem where I have to get this clump of cells taken out, if they hear the word cancer, they might have a strong reaction. And I want you to know that that's because they don't know what kind of cancer I have. And usually this happens to older people. And so I don't want you to get scared by other people's reactions when they hear this. And that turned out to be really important, because people did have strong reactions, or they would come up to me and completely forget that I had a child next to me. And they would say things that could have been terrifying to her. If I hadn't said, I want you to remember that I am your trusted grown up, I am explaining this to you for how it actually is, and I'm not gonna lie to you.

And so then I basically said, Do you have any questions about what's going to happen? And she said, immediately, are you going to die? And I think part of that was, why is mom having a conversation with me about her, like body, like mom doesn't usually do this. And I said, some people do die from cancer, but I am not going to be one of those people. I just have, you know, a couple of these, like broken cells, and they're just gonna take them out. There's a whole host of you know, it's a very deep conversation, if the answer to that question is yes, obviously. Yeah. And I'm in the process of actually, I'm working with someone at the Mayo Clinic to write a book about what happens when the answer to that question is yes, because it's really, that is a terrifying conversation to have to have with your kids. But the basic foundation of this is you explain things from a factual point of view, and then answer any questions that they have, and then talk to them about what this is going to mean for their day to day.

So I said, essentially, I'm going to go to the doctor, they're going to remove that, I'm probably not going to feel good for a little while, they're going to remove both of my breasts from my body. And so that basically hurts. And so, you know, this is going to mean that other people are going to be taking you to school for a while, but it's going to be okay. And so then that opens up more questions, and then to say, you know, any questions that you have ever, I'm here to answer them, and make it an ongoing conversation? Because I think that's another thing is parents feel like they have to make this conversation perfect. Like you only have one chance, but that is 129% not true. It should be an ongoing conversation. And you should be talking about this over and over and over again. Because in order to really absorb what's going on, because need to hear it over and over and over again, which is part of why books are so great. Yeah. Is it's explaining it the same way every single time. Yeah. So yeah, it's it takes a lot of bravery.

Penny Williams 13:56

It really does. There's so much there. I think that your first reaction when you know you have to have a conversation like this with your kid is, what are they going to say? Are they going to, like, ask me if I'm going to die like your daughter dead? You know, we fear as we're talking about, we fear the unknown. And so I think that's part of what we have to get over as a grown up or a parent to have these conversations. Yeah, but I love that. You were really good at explaining it very factually. But also in a way that was really easy for anyone to understand. Any kid could understand that. And then being really open about questions. Yes. And I also it really stuck out to me too, that you were talking about talking to her about what other people's reactions would be, you know, just having the foresight to think of that was so brilliant, because people do say a lot of things right and, and so often when we are overwhelmed with emotion, we We don't necessarily take the temperature of the room, right? So if I'm really emotional, and I see you and I'm just so overwhelmed with emotion that you're second, you have to go through this really hard thing. I may not notice your kid, right, right before I've already said something. So it was so, so smart. I want to kind of pivot a little bit to and talk about some other scenarios.

Some other things that we often have to talk to kids about that are hard. And some things that I mentioned at the beginning, like moving or having a good friend move away, that happened to my son, when he finally had, you know, a kid who would invite him over and want to come to our house, because often that's an issue for neurodivergent kids. That friend moved after about six months away out of town, Rudel, and so right, it was so hard, and, you know, and just to be honest, and say, you're probably not gonna see him again, you might but you know, the likelihood is that you're not, but also being really open then about those questions like reminding your kid over and over that they can ask questions, and that we want them to not even though it's okay, but we want them to keep asking, when they have something that they don't know. Yeah, I can think of other things like a death in the family, or divorce, as you mentioned already, even you know, myself, I have a chronic pain condition, and so does my husband. And so there have been times as our kids grew up that there were things that we wanted to do that we couldn't necessarily do with them. You know, they happened on a day when we just didn't have any spoons to be able to do something physical or something like that. And so, you know, we've had to have conversations about that over the years. And that's tough to to say, you know, I really want to take you to do this, but my body just isn't going to let me today. Right. So let's just kind of unpack I guess, a few other scenarios. And I think divorce, maybe is the next good one, because that happens to a lot of people.

Sara Olsher 17:00

Yeah, I think for all of those scenarios that you mentioned, I think the common thread when something hard happens is to honor your child's feelings, and not try to make it okay. Because I can imagine that your son's friend moving may have incited a meltdown, because it would have been my household. And I really want to just drive this home. Sometimes stuff just sucks. It just sucks. Yeah, and there's no silver lining, and there's no making it better. And glossing over that, or trying to make it better, can be really invalidating to our kids and to our friends. And, you know, to whoever we're doing it to. And sometimes just saying to your kid, like, this is what is happening. And it sucks. And I'm so sorry. And I'm here for you. And just try and validate their experience and, you know, hold space for them, which basically just means like you are there to listen, while they are struggling with this because they will struggle. And, you know, I once heard from a grief therapist, that grief happens anytime anything is taken away without our consent. And that is incredibly powerful. Because that's true for adults. But it's extra true for kids who don't have the life experience that things move on.

And we, you know, end up being able to cope with things like that's why the first heartbreak is so hard, right? You know, and a lot of parents are like, Oh, it's not really love. It's, it's fine. It's not that big of a deal to them. This is absolutely devastating. It is the worst thing that has ever happened to them. And that's true, no matter how old they are. For my daughter, she lost her lovey when she was three. And that truly was the worst thing that had ever happened to her. Like legitimately. Yeah, so if we can have compassion and empathy for the fact that whatever it is that's going on is really just plain awful. I can help us sit with our kids. And remember that what they're doing is dealing with grief. It helps a lot, I think, especially in situations like divorce, because there's a lot of complicated feelings for grownups during that time. Yeah, and it's easy to forget that, you know, your child's experience is completely different than yours and they are grieving the loss of things as they were. And it depends on what is going on that is leading to the divorce and again, going back to putting yourself in your child's shoes and what it is that this is going to change. in their day to day life, you know, if there was a lot of conflict in the home, you know, that's a different situation than you're getting a divorce because we just found out some so and so had an affair and everything seemed fine.

But now, so and so is going to live in a different house. And that's coming out of left field. And it's just completely shocking. So when you're having these conversations with your kids, no matter what's going on, to just try and think about, like, what were things like up until this point, and use that to inform what you say to your kids. Yeah, and then going back to the age appropriate part of this, especially with divorce. A big reminder for this is your child, whether they are biological children, or adopted or whatever they consider themselves to be half you, and half your partner. And so that is the reason, like if you really want to get down to the very bottom of this, do not say anything negative about the other person because your child internalizes that. And it feels like a criticism of them. And so even if you totally hate the person that you are divorcing, your child feels that that person is a part of them. So you don't want to do something that would make your child have that horrible feeling in their chest and tell me that you don't like part of them. Yeah, so just trying to keep it as simple as possible, which, when it comes to divorce is basically saying something like, you know, grownups sometimes don't get along anymore. And you may have noticed that we've been fighting a lot.

And what we really want is for everybody in the house, to not feel stressed, to feel more calm. And the decision that we've come to is that we're going to live in different houses. And we're going to live in different houses, because we don't get along. And because we want you to feel peaceful in your home. And that means that you're gonna see so and so at a new place, and we're gonna stay in this house, you'll see me in this house, or you know, whatever the case may be. And to always follow these conversations up with, do you have any questions, but then also, all your feelings are okay, and you might be mad at me, it's okay, if you're mad at me, it's okay. If you're mad at the other person, it's okay, if you're mad at the dog, whatever you feel is safe here. And you can always come to me with it. And try your absolute hardest to make that true. I think, you know, a lot of us feel like we want to be this, you know, open person who our kids can come to, but then we get mad at them for saying certain things. So we really have to try and check our facial expressions and learn how to manage our own emotional reactions. Yeah. And, and just one more point, which is, you will not get this perfect. You won't thank you for saying that. We are humans, we are messy. You will not get this right. And that's okay. As long as you acknowledge that to your kids and say, Listen, I'm sorry, dude. Like, I did not mean to have that reaction. Or I'm really stressed out because, you know, the cat pooped outside the litter box, and everything was going wrong this morning. And you know, I dropped the coffee all over the floor. And it wasn't about you. And I'm really sorry, because you didn't deserve to have me talk to you that way. Yeah, those kinds of things. Give our kids permission to not be perfect. And so they really are blessings. Yes, as long as we can take that moment, harness it and say we're sorry.

Penny Williams 23:49

Exactly. Yeah, we talk a lot about repair and making amends. Because we do make mistakes as parents all the time. It's so so important for our kids to know that. So they don't feel like if they're not perfect that they're not enough, you know, because again, that internalization is powerful. Our kids will make up a narrative in the absence of explanation. So the more facts that we can give them just as you're explaining about this process, the less they have to blame themselves and make up other you know, scenarios that are very often blame and shame related. I want to just like really acknowledging, again, the fact that you have brought up multiple times that however our kids are feeling is natural and appropriate and okay, because we live in a culture that says, being sad as bad, being mad is bad, right? And so we have to work really hard. I think it'd be so mindful to say, It's okay that you're sad and you're crying about this. It's okay. however you're feeling, and we can work through that we can work on, you know, sometimes they don't show it appropriately, but the feeling is still okay. And we have to do a lot of that work. And I just, I wanted to really call extra attention to that, because it really is a very, very important piece of what you're talking about. I want to also be sure that we talk maybe more about that structure piece, because I do think that it's really valuable, especially for something like you were talking about you were having doctor's appointments and cancer treatments, and letting your child know when you would be there and not be there and things like that. What does that look like? Like? I think because some parents need to know, how do I create that? What does that look like? Are there tools that I can use for that?

Sara Olsher 25:49

Yeah, absolutely. So I would say step one is always having the conversation. And then step two is figuring out how to cope with it. And the thing that sets kind of my children's books aside from others is it explains the issue. And then it talks about how that affects the child's day to day using a calendar. So I have a book called Nothing stays the same, but that's okay. And that book is about any kind of change, whether it's moving, or a lot of kids struggle, just going from, you know, school to summer vacation, school to winter vacation, getting a new teacher, all of these things, yeah, these changes are really difficult for kids. And so the more that we can take that unknown and make it known visually, the better our kids are going to cope. And so in that book, Nothing stays the same. There's a picture of a calendar, and it's showing that this child's friend is moving. And on that calendar, it says you know, well, okay, it's not a child, it's a giraffes friend who is a lion, that see the lion is moving and steward the giraffe is like what is happening. And so it shows Bessie is going to move this day. And we're going to plan times where we can have like a video chat or, you know, something like that. These sorts of things, so that we're taking the unknown and trying to make them known makes an enormous difference. And so that is kind of the basis for my entire business, which is called Mighty and bright.

And it started with a weekly calendar that would show custody schedule. And that's because kids can't keep that information in their brains. And so having a visual reminder of what their lives look like gives them a sense of control, it answers questions you may not have even realized that they've had and empowers them to go and check that calendar when they're starting to feel anxious. So there's a daily chart, which goes through routines, which as we know, neurodivergent kids especially love routine. Yep, so it has these like little visual, the reusable stickers. So you can kind of customize your routine based on what your kids need. I have a daily chart and a weekly one that's specifically for autistic kids with things like this is a no school day, things that kids have anxiety about, but need to see visually represented. And it's like an absolute game changer. So things that kids worry about that maybe you might not have realized were going to be a part of this situation, right. Like in cancer treatment, different people are dropping my daughter off at school and picking her up every day. And that caused her a lot of anxiety that I didn't realize until time had passed where she was like, it actually made me worried that someone was going to forget me. Because what happens if it's if it was Mimi's day to pick me up and Mimi thought it was poppies day to pick me up.

And then I was all by myself and I I'm sick. So having the calendar so that it says this is who's picking you up. And you know, we can verify that that person knows it's their day to these sorts of things, again, and it should just be the things that affect the child. A lot of families have these, you know, command centers in their house, right, but giving your child a personal calendar, and it does not have to be one from mighty and bright. You can make it at a construction paper, just please provide this for your kids. Right. But basically, the idea is this is your child's life visually represented only the things that affect them are on the calendar. So the cat vet appointment is not on this unless the kid has to go to the cat appointment. They should have ownership over it. It's called the connection calendar because the idea is that you sit down together every Sunday and plan out the week ahead and that provides an opportunity to talk about what's happening in the coming week. And if there's any worries that they're having, they can bring them up at that time.

And then the calendar also as a visual reminder to them that this is a conversation that they can have any time. If they're seeing something on the calendar that's worrying, then they can come to you and say, I'm worried there's a substitute teacher on Friday. And what if I don't like her? What if she's a giant purple dinosaur and I hate dinosaurs? You know, like, ask the weirdest question you can think of, you know, I'm here to answer those questions. But the added benefit of this is it answers a lot of the questions for you. So there's a lot less of once a playdate once a playdate. When's the play date? Wednesday? Yes, because the calendar has a little, a little magnet that says today. And you know, I have some stickers that can show kids that don't understand the concept of time, every day is asleep. And so it's three sleeps until your play date. And now you've moved the today magnet. Now you can see it's two sleeps and solo play date. And then you can say, why don't you go look at your calendar, and you can figure out which day it is and then come back and tell me that sense of power eliminates so many power struggles, that it really just makes a huge difference in day to day life, it's pretty incredible. For something so simple to make such an enormous difference.

Penny Williams 31:18

Yeah, I learned with my own son very early on, that I needed to make a visual schedule, I needed for him to be able to see what was coming up, because he was always when is this happening, but it's not happening constantly. And so you know, I had to help him to learn that he could go and he could check it himself, right, and he could check it himself. But also, that planning piece, you know, we would like in the summers, we would sit down on Monday morning. And we would fill it out for the two kids and talk about what they could expect each day, right? Because they also needed to build the skill of planning, as well. And I think, you know, choice is a huge piece for kids, if they have any say in something, they're much more likely to engage, but also they worry less totally about it. And so, you know, there's so many little tidbits sprinkled in to what you're talking about, where there's also opportunities to build skills for nerd version, kids or neurotypical kids for that matter. And I think that's really, really valuable. And these are things that don't only help when your family is going through something difficult. They can help every single day as well. Being open,

Sara Olsher 32:35

I gotta say, you know, when my daughter was first diagnosed with ADHD, I was like, this is just hard, it's hard. It makes it makes her life hard to not be able to keep track of what's going on. And so part of what we did with that daily chart to your point, it's like basically a routine chart, we sat down with that, and to your point about giving her choice, you know, I'm like, this is going to help keep you on track so that you remember all the things that you need to do in the morning and all the things you need to do in the evening. You know, what do you think needs to go on this chart? Like what do you think the things are that you need to do. And so we would have that conversation together. So she felt like she was part of it. And then I let her choose the order in which she did those things. So then she felt even more control over it. And then I have this bracelet thing, it's like a slap bracelet for all of my 80s and 90s friends here. But it has a it allows you to put the magnet on the bracelet. And so when she would have this task, so say she needs to brush her teeth, she would go to the chart, she would put the magnet on the bracelet, she would leave her room, forget what she was doing and end up in the laundry room and have to constantly check which task she was on to remember to do whatever was, you know, to brush her teeth or whatever, which honestly, I could use to Yeah, but then when she completed that task, she had so much fun taking it off of that bracelet and putting it back on the chart and then getting the next thing on her list. So having things be fun is helpful, too. But all of these things, again, are what we're asking our kids to do, especially when they're neurodivergent is something that may seem simple, but for them, it's really difficult. And so back to that bridge analogy, like how do we make a bridge from where they're at, to where we want them to be? And to provide tools to get them there is like so helpful.

Penny Williams 34:36

How do we bridge the gap? Yeah. I just want to say I have seen your bracelet. Because as we record this, we can see each other unfortunately, the listeners can't see it. But it is genius. And every family who has kids with executive functioning struggles should have this thing that I'm sure they can get it at the mighty and bright website, right.

Sara Olsher 34:57

Yeah, yeah. And it sticks to that chart too. A lot of parents are like, they're gonna lose the bracelet. It's like, nope, when they're done, they stick it directly onto the chart. So it's all magnetic.

Penny Williams 35:07

It's so cool. Oh my gosh, we could have used it. I learned pretty early like I had to give him charts, checklists like routine checklists for things that he could carry with him. Because once they leave the room from the list, that list doesn't exist. Right yet the bracelet, then the task goes with them. I love it. I love it. And you've given us so much great advice. I want to let everyone know how to connect with you. In the show notes for this episode, there will be links to your products, the mighty and bright website, your social media, any resources, other resources that we've talked about here as well, I will have linked up there. And of course, I encourage you to check out Sara's work and really learn more like there's more and you have so many tools, I really hope that families can use your books and other things to really help with hard situations, but also just like day to day executive functioning to for our audience in particular. And those show notes are at parentingADHDandautism.com/217 for episode 217. And again, I just want to thank you so much for being here and sharing some of your story, which isn't always easy to do, but it's so helpful to others. This has been really fun. Thank you so much. And I will see everyone on the next episode. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the beautifully complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parenting ADHD and autism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Thank you!

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I'm Penny Williams.

I help stuck and struggling parents (educators, too) make the pivots necessary to unlock success and joy for neurodivergent kids and teens, themselves, and their families. I'm honored to be part of your journey!

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