Lessons Learned: From Mom and Her Neurodivergent Kid
with Penny & Luke
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Luke Williams 0:03
I say roadblock instead of dead end because in most circumstances of where we feel trapped, it's not. I don't know where I'm going. It's I know where I'm supposed to go. I just can't get there.
Penny Williams 0:21
Welcome to the beautifully complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started.
Hello, hello, our neuro diverse community. I am thrilled to be recording our 200th episode right now of the beautifully complex podcast. I cannot believe that I have been podcasting for almost six years, and we have amassed 200 episodes. And I have a really special guest for you. On this episode. Do you want to say hello?
Luke Williams 1:16
Penny Williams 1:16
Who are you?
Luke Williams 1:18
I'm Luke. I am her son.
Penny Williams 1:21
It's Luke guys. He's back after a year or two. You guys heard him in a previous episode. I'll link it up in the shownotes. And everyone was so excited to hear from you, Luke. And so I know that they're really going to be so happy to hear your insights and to benefit from them again, in this episode. So we're going to talk about the big lessons that we have learned in the 14 years since Luke got his first diagnosis that made him neuro divergent while he was born or diverged, right. But the first diagnosis where we knew that he was neurodivergent, that ADHD diagnosis. And it's been a long journey. Right, buddy?
Luke Williams 2:12
Penny Williams 2:14
Long journey. But you made it and you keep moving forward. So you want to tell people like what you've been up to? What's happened? You graduated from high school? Right?
Luke Williams 2:26
Right. I Did Yes.
Penny Williams 2:27
And what have you been doing?
Luke Williams 2:30
A lot of stuff with music still?
Penny Williams 2:33
Yeah. So creating your own digital music, right? You're still doing music lessons. You have had a job, right? You worked for a while? At a print shop.
Luke Williams 2:44
Yeah, 9 months.
Penny Williams 2:45
You're thinking about some different opportunities of what to explore next, right?
Luke Williams 2:50
Penny Williams 2:51
And so just finding your way in your own time? Does it feel good to be able to do that?
Luke Williams 2:58
Yeah. It feels great to be able to have kind of normal kind of role in my life for at least a little bit.
Penny Williams 3:07
Yeah. What do you mean by that a normal role in your life?
Luke Williams 3:10
Well, it's kinda like, normal progression.
Penny Williams 3:14
Did you feel stuck when you were in school?
Luke Williams 3:17
Kinda, was a very trapped feeling when you have a lot of trouble expressing your struggles, and the complications that you have?
Penny Williams 3:32
It can be really challenging. I know. And it took me a while to really understand and that I think it took you some growth and maturity to be able to understand yourself even right.
Luke Williams 3:42
I can tell you this much that I don't fully understand myself still.
Penny Williams 3:47
I'm not sure any of us do totally.
Luke Williams 3:51
I have substantially improved my understanding of myself.
Penny Williams 3:54
Yeah, for sure. And I've seen that so much in you, too. So let's start with your five big lessons learned because I'm hoping that the parents who are listening might have their kids join them to listen to your ahas from your experience so far. So we'll start with you and these kids want to jump in and listen, what was your number one or the first thing that you want to talk about on your big list of things that you've learned?
Luke Williams 4:28
Firstly, there is nothing wrong with you. I feel like in the escape of neurodiversity, a lot of it is portrayed as something being wrong with you, or, as a documentarian on youtube put it, a lot of people have this ideology that your brain has just gone out. But that's not true at all. It's more of just this kinda divergence, which is where that term comes from. But it's just a different way that your brain functions. It's not the wrong way. It's a different way.
Penny Williams 5:06
Yeah. And you got a lot of messages throughout growing up that at least felt to you, like people were saying it was the wrong way. Right.
Luke Williams 5:14
Right. The school system has this really weird fascination with making the neurodivergent kids feel like they're not good enough.
Penny Williams 5:24
I think that system of compliance and conformity just doesn't allow for differences, right?
Luke Williams 5:31
Well, no, because they have their curriculum, and if the curriculum steers away from that, and it's deemed improper education.
Penny Williams 5:41
So your number one was, there's nothing wrong with you. Right? What's your number two,
Luke Williams 5:47
It's a speed bump, not a roadblock.
Penny Williams 5:51
I love that.
Luke Williams 5:52
The whole idea that you're unable to progress forward is wrong. It's a mindset that I've been in before, where it's very, very hard to progress forward, because you either, like don't see the reason to or are constantly opposed, when trying to move forward. But there's always going to be a way and I say, roadblock instead of dead end. Because in most circumstances of where we feel trapped, it's not. I don't know where I'm going. It's I know where I'm supposed to go, I just can't get there.
Penny Williams 6:36
Can you give us an example of what part an example of a time where you felt like you were stuck, and you knew where you wanted to go, but you're having a hard time getting there? Like, is there a specific example you can share?
Luke Williams 6:56
Well, there was a time in school where I had to write a paper. I don't really remember the specifics of the paper, because that was like sixth grade. But I remember that I knew what I wanted to do my general like statement of the paper, but I couldn't get it to go on the actual page. I couldn't like write down when I wanted. So I had this feeling of seeing where I needed to go. But being unable to get there, because there was something blocking it. But in reality, it was just a slow point. Because eventually, I got myself to the point of where I could put what I wanted to put down on paper, and I got it done.
Penny Williams 7:47
And how did you do that? Did you get help from other people or what helped you?
Luke Williams 7:52
Trying to open my mind to the other possibilities of what I could do was one thing of, as I like to call it, deep thinking, and trying to find alternative solutions to your problem. But asking for help is always an option. And if people tell you otherwise, they're wrong.
Penny Williams 8:17
Yeah. So you had to sort of step back and say, Okay, there's a problem here I need to solve. I have to get creative on how I can get around this roadblock so that I can get to this finish line that I can already see.
Luke Williams 8:32
Penny Williams 8:33
Nice. And writing was a big roadblock for you for a long time, wasn't it? Yeah, it was really difficult. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of kids out there who have that same difficulty, and I don't think that your educators recognized it very much. It's something that when it comes naturally to you, it's hard to imagine that other people struggle with it. Like I remember, when you guys were little, and organizing is really natural to me, like super, super, very specifically organized down to the nth detail is the way my brain works. And it was really hard for me to realize that it wasn't that you didn't care. It was that you didn't see it the same way. Right. And I had to realize that you didn't see things the same way I see things and your instincts weren't the same as mine instincts, which can be really hard for adults to see. And so if you're a good writer, even somebody who hasn't struggled with writing, for instance, it can be challenging to imagine that somebody could know where they want to go and not be able to get it on the paper. And, you know, that's the beauty of this podcast and others and the work that a lot of other nerds version adults like you are doing and trying to educate people and let them know that these are the things that we have a hard time with, right? And that you can help us if you understand if you're open to understanding that there are different ways of moving through the world. So what's your number three on your list of big lessons?
Luke Williams 10:21
You're capable of learning and growing no matter what.
Penny Williams 10:26
Luke Williams 10:28
Right. Yeah, this isn't just strictly for the neurodivergent. But it does help neurodivergent people a lot when you express to them that they are capable of doing the thing that feels really difficult to them, which is to comprehend and capture information as well as other people can.
Penny Williams 10:51
Yeah. And so the roadblock there again, right, is that the system is very rigid. And if you don't learn in the ways that the system is designed, then it feels like you're not capable, doesn't it?
Luke Williams 11:07
Penny Williams 11:08
And so what do we do about that? What how do we help kids with that?
Luke Williams 11:12
If a kid needs something explained, you don't question why they needed explained or deny them the explanation. You explain it to them again, there were a lot of times, especially with math stuff, because I hate math. There were several times where I would have to have the same thing explained to me over and over again, I think in particular, it was division, because I didn't really understand what the whole thing of what it meant to divide was. So I had to have my teacher, explain it to me multiple times. And every time that it was explained to me, I took something away from it. But I didn't take the whole thing away from that.
Penny Williams 12:00
There was a building process. Yes. And I want to point out here, you are wicked smart, has nothing to do with smarts. Right?
Luke Williams 12:10
Right. I would like to believe it as you know, normal brain, normal brain is discussing term, but like, you know, non neurodivergent people, their information is more like a block, or like a square. It's just a solid thing. And when they learn it's there, but with neurodivergent people, it's like building blocks. Every time it's explained to you, you get a new part of the puzzle. And then sometimes you get the whole puzzle, and sometimes you don't.
Penny Williams 12:43
Yeah, that's such a good way to explain it. But I like that it makes it really easy for us to understand from the outside. So we're on number four, right? Have your lessons learned what's number four?
Luke Williams 12:56
Yes. Find your people. The rest don't matter.
Penny Williams 13:01
How did you find your people?
Luke Williams 13:03
I circumstance, I guess, but I did look for them. Kinda?
Penny Williams 13:08
Yeah, I think it was when you joined Robotics Club in middle school? Possibly.
Luke Williams 13:13
I'd argue that point. But it felt like it was before that, but robotics club did certainly affirm those friendships for me, because it was me realizing that, hey, these people are a lot like me, aren't they?
Penny Williams 13:32
Yeah. So I'm looking for people with similar interests to you. Or even like similar challenges. I think you can bond over that as well.
Luke Williams 13:43
Yeah. Like, I think about 80% of my friends are some form of neurodivergent.
Penny Williams 13:49
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think a lot of times neurodivergent people have similar interests to you. Like you guys, were really interested in gaming. You were really interested in technology, and stuff like that. That's why you guys were in robotics together in the first place, because you had similar interests, but it can feel for parents, especially like, your kids are never going to find good friends. They're never going to have a really solid connection. And what would you say to that?
Luke Williams 14:26
That it's not true, and that there is someone for everyone out there are godless of its friendship or relationship. Everyone has someone that they can get along with in the world. And all you have to do is just keep looking.
Penny Williams 14:42
Yeah, being open to meeting new people and stuff like that, which can be really hard to for a lot of people, but I think what we tried to do to help you was just to keep encouraging you to participate in things that you were interested in, knowing that There would be people your age with similar interest there as well. And that that would be helpful, maybe environment for you to meet your tribe to find your people. What is your number five, bud?
Luke Williams 15:14
You're never fully stuck.
Penny Williams 15:18
I think everybody needs a big exhale on that one. You're never fully stuck. Does it feel often? Like you're fully stuck?
Luke Williams 15:28
Yes. I think there are times where I've worked myself in that corner. Because I felt so stuck that I couldn't do anything. But eventually there was a way to solve that problem. So even if you feel stuck, there's always some way to get yourself out of it.
Penny Williams 15:47
Can you give some examples? I know that's going to be different for everybody. But how did you work yourself out of that corner, when you felt like you were totally stuck for good?
Luke Williams 16:01
I would sit there in that corner. And it would really feel like I was just not going to be able to get out of it. But eventually, you start to see, if you really try, you start to see the ways that it can get better. And you usually act on those. And it'll help you get unstuck.
Penny Williams 16:23
And I from the parent side would add to take the pressure off. And I know you're a big proponent of stop pressuring your kids stop pressuring your students. Yeah, so I know you would agree with that. But also, what strikes me is that you need a time to be able to think through it. And so what I know about the nervous system and the brain, is that when you're in that corner, and you're getting the feeling of being bricked in and completely and hopelessly stuck, it was because your emotional and survival brains were taking over. And your thinking brain was becoming inaccessible. And so you couldn't really see a way out because you couldn't rationalize you couldn't problem solve, but you sat in that until your thinking brain was able to come back online, because your nervous system had calmed down, and your emotional brain had calmed down. And then you're able to think more clearly and to really problem solve, and be able to see that yes, I can get unstuck. This isn't hopeless. Does that feel true to you?
Luke Williams 17:31
Penny Williams 17:31
Yeah. It's amazing when we learn about what our bodies and our brains are doing during those times, how much it describes exactly what we need to know, to do the most helpful thing for our kids. So what I needed to know in those instances, to help you was to give you time, right, which I know you will nod your head vehemently in agreement I struggled with for a long time giving you time and space, right? Yes, I see you nodding yes. It was very hard. Because why? Do you know why it was so hard for me to give you space and time?
Luke Williams 18:09
Penny Williams 18:10
Because I wanted to help you so bad. And that's where so many parents get stuck in that same trap that I did. I wanted to help you so bad, right away. And what I was inadvertently doing was actually making it harder for you, right? Because I was putting all that pressure on, I was piling on to the overwhelm. And I didn't see that for a long time until you were able to let me know what was going on and what I was actually doing what that felt like to you on the receiving side of it. And I've been working really hard to not pressure you to talk about things right away. And to give you time and space. How have I been doing?
Luke Williams 18:56
Penny Williams 18:57
Better? Still room for improvement? Yeah, I'm sure. Because mom just wants to help man. It's hard. It's hard when you're a parent to see your kid struggle and to say, Okay, well, you know, I've gotta give him time. I have to give him longer to feel really crappy. But it really is true for all of us. And I have to remind myself of that. We all have a similar nervous system and similar brain, you know, in the ways that sometimes get stuck and what helps and so we have to remember that just like we sometimes just need time and quiet and space. So do you, so do our kids, right, so to our students. So let's talk about my list of my parent lessons, because I think you're gonna have a lot of input for what I have on my list too. And I'm really curious about that as well. What you're gonna say to that, and I think we've touched on some of it or already, but I would say that I would start with, there's nothing to fix. And that kind of dovetails with one of your lessons. And I got really stuck in fix it mode when you were in first grade and second grade and third grade, and you are really having a hard time.
And I was getting so much pressure from the school, that you had to behave a certain way you had to learn certain things. And I was just trying to help you to meet those expectations, not understanding that that was a completely wrong way to go about it, that it wasn't about fixing the situation, making you capable of fitting into their box, it was about helping everyone see that you learn differently and helping you to do it in your way and your time. And it took me a really long time to learn that. And I wasted a lot of time trying to fix it. So now when I look back, that's one of my biggest lessons for parents. And for educators. There's nothing to fix, it's not a matter of fixing something, it's not a matter of making kids fit into this box that you've dreamed up. It's about opening that box, flattening out all the sides of that box and being free to be creative and to be different to learn differently. And to show what you've learned differently to participate in a birthday party differently. Maybe, you know, it's okay for you to go about the world differently. Do you agree?
Luke Williams 21:39
Penny Williams 21:40
Yeah. And we have a long way to go, don't we with especially with our education system?
Luke Williams 21:44
Penny Williams 21:45
To say it's okay to do it differently. But there's a really big acceptance for parents. And it's a process that we have to go through to realize that we're not trying to change the diagnoses, we're not trying to change the child that we have, we have a fantastic, wonderful child with lots of greatness within them. It's a matter of helping them figure out what that journey looks like for them. Because it can be different than that really stereotypical path that we want to push every kid to. My number two, you can co escalate or you can co regulate. Can you remember times when I've co escalated you?
Luke Williams 22:31
Penny Williams 22:32
Yeah, probably more than you can count because it took me a long time to learn this, right. And I had to really stay calm, that I had to, you know, take a step back and let you find your way, sometimes, it didn't have to be my way again. And then you know, what we want to do instead of CO escalating is to co regulate. And I will say about CO escalating, it's not our intention, it's never our intention to make things worse, to get you more stock or to get you more dysregulated. It is our instinct to respond in kind. So if you're yelling, it's my instinct in my body to yell back for protection. And we have to as parents and educators and other adults in your lives, we have to figure out how to offer you calm tomorrow, how to stay calm for ourselves, so that we can stay in that thinking brain. And we can stay regulated so that we can actually be helpful to you. Because just like it's hard for you to do things when you're dysregulated. It's hard for parents and educators to do things when they're in dysregulated, too. So we have to work really hard at not escalating the situation. But offering calm, to try to help our kids to become regulated again and be back online. With all of those thinking brain emotional brain survival brain working in harmony. And so that's my number two. Can you think of like one example where I was super co escalating that you can share?
Luke Williams 24:03
Penny Williams 24:03
No, nothing like jumps out at you like, oh, this time? Mom really was not just offish.
I'll take that as a win may have been okay. You haven't been scarred by anything? Am I better at co regulating offering you co regulation and calm now than I used to be?
Luke Williams 24:27
Penny Williams 24:29
Yeah. You something maybe you don't believe that. But you want. You don't have to say what you think I want to hear.
Luke Williams 24:35
There are times but it's better.
Penny Williams 24:39
I mean, I'm human, right dude?
Luke Williams 24:42
I understand that.
Penny Williams 24:43
I'm human I'm gonna make mistakes. Parents make mistakes, just like kids.
Luke Williams 24:47
I'm not denying that.
Penny Williams 24:48
No, I know. I'm just pointing it out for everybody listening. We're human beings as parents or teachers or whatever. And we're gonna make mistakes. We're gonna get caught up but we certainly are trying right If and when we know better, we do better. So I know better. And I'm working on doing better. So my number three, which we've already talked about, my number three biggest lesson was that pressure makes things less doable for everyone, I think, but especially for neurodivergent individuals. If I put pressure on you, then you kind of shut down, right? Do you want to talk a little bit about that? Because I know this is a big topic for you. It's a big sticking point for you. And it's sort of the societal tool that we're taught to us that we put pressure on kids to perform to do what we've asked, if you don't do this, this thing you don't like is going to happen, right? The whole Crime and Punishment. And I learned from you in pretty recent years, when you were finally able to sort of pinpoint it and to tell me about it, that the more pressure people put on you, the less capable you are of meeting, whatever expectation they're pressuring you on, right. What does that feel like for you when somebody is really pressuring you?
Luke Williams 26:14
Penny Williams 26:15
Yeah, obviously. Can you describe though, like, are there certain feelings in your body, or certain thoughts that you have when you're getting really pressured?
Luke Williams 26:25
I don't want to do it.
Penny Williams 26:26
Luke Williams 26:27
That's a pretty common thought. And I'm being pressured because it feels less of doing it of my own volition and more of this person is forcing me to do it. So I kind of have to do it now, don't I.
Penny Williams 26:40
You don't like to be told what to do.
Luke Williams 26:43
Right? I'm less likely to procrastinate, if I set up the thing for myself than if I'm told to do it.
Penny Williams 26:49
Hmm, that's so good. Say that again?
Luke Williams 26:53
Penny Williams 26:58
No? You're less likely to procrastinate, if you set it up for yourself.
Luke Williams 27:03
If you set it up for yourself than if you're told to do it by someone else. Because it feels more like your goal than someone else's.
Penny Williams 27:12
And that interchange was an exact example. Right? You just felt pressured by me to do it, because I asked. I just wanted you to reiterate that for people listening, because it's so so good. I need to know that. In order to do right by you.
Luke Williams 27:31
I was goofing with you.
Penny Williams 27:32
I know. It's my favorite thing about you. You're so funny and kind. And I love it. I always laugh with you. It's amazing part of your greatness. So my number four, I'm on my number four. Behavior is often a physiological instinctual response. This is what I learned from learning more about neurobiology and brain science is that our nervous systems are sending us messages constantly. And very often, that message is of danger. And sometimes there is danger. And sometimes it's a false alarm. But so often, behavior is an instinctual, automatic response to something that is hard, right? If it's a challenging or unwanted behavior, it came from something that was hard, and it was an automatic response. So your child or your student didn't sit down and go, Well, I'm going to scream at mom and tell her I hate her. And then I'm going to get my way. That doesn't happen. It just automatically your body is trying to protect itself. Our kids bodies are trying to protect themselves. And that's what we're on the receiving end of. And it can feel really intentional. It can feel very personal. But so often it's not. That was a big, big, big, big, paying parenting Aha, for me, a big mindset shift.
For me, that was really helpful, because then I could more often see that Luke wasn't giving me a hard time he was having a hard time. I could tell when he was having a hard time. And then that made me go, Okay, how do I help him versus Why is he doing this to me? Why is he acting this way? Do you have any input for that one bud?
Luke Williams 29:26
Penny Williams 29:27
Nope, nothing. Does it feel true?
Luke Williams 29:30
Penny Williams 29:31
Sometimes you aren't really in control of your responses to things. And one big clue for me when you were growing up on that was that something would happen. It'd be really hard. It'd be really intense. And then later, you would come and you would say, I'm so sorry, mom. I didn't mean for that to happen. Or, you know, I don't mean what I said. And then I knew that you weren't really in control. Because you weren't okay with what happened either. And I think that parents really have to key into that. That's a big signal that that was more of an automatic, instinctual response. Yeah. So my number five, my number five, the relationship always comes first, your relationship as the adult, the parent, the educator, or the soccer coach, whoever you are, as an adult in the life of a nerd divergent kid, the relationship between you and the connection has to be the top priority. So some days homework isn't a thing. Because the relationship matters more. Some days, getting that Math Worksheet done in the classroom isn't the top priority. The top priority is the connection, and the relationship with that student. What happens when you have a good relationship with the adults in your life, buddy? What happens when you feel a good connection with your parents, your teachers, your grandparents, you know, whoever your coach?
Luke Williams 31:10
It feels a lot easier to trust them with knowing about your struggles, when they seem to understand them. So you'll go to them more frequently. When you have problems with something.
Penny Williams 31:25
Yeah. And does it make you feel more understood?
Luke Williams 31:31
Penny Williams 31:32
And does that make things feel more doable?
Luke Williams 31:35
Penny Williams 31:37
I remember so many times, we battled about homework. Because school was really hard for you. And it was pretty unfair. I think for any kid, it's unfair for them to have to do homework. Truly. You have already been doing seven hours of it during the day, you need a life outside of school. But that's a whole other conversation.
Luke Williams 31:58
I think homework is bad. I'd love to have that conversation.
Penny Williams 32:02
Yeah, you were so spent by the time you got home, right? How hard were you working at school to keep it together? To try to fit and do what you were asked to do?
Luke Williams 32:12
Penny Williams 32:14
Way harder than people realized. Right? And so did you have any energy left or any will to do more hard, like math work, or writing or reading?
Luke Williams 32:28
You expel all of your energy at school, and all of your willingness to do anything that you like, don't want to at school? So the fact that they expect you to come home and do more school stuff is abysmal. Because homework is not an optional thing. You have to do it. So they're literally forcing you to go home and do more school in an environment. You know, you could be doing not school.
Penny Williams 33:01
Yeah. And you just need a break, don't you?
Luke Williams 33:06
Yes. I feel like that's not even for neurodivergent children, that's just for all kids. The homework is terrible. And the prospect of homework is insulting.
Penny Williams 33:19
I agree. But I agree for all kids. I don't want to get way into this in this conversation, we'll definitely do another episode. And we'll get into it, for sure. But for now, this just illustrates so much why the relationship is so important. Because we are asking our kids to do really hard things. And we often don't recognize that these things are harder for our kids than maybe they were for us those kids maybe they are for their peers in the classroom. And so we have to see them. We have to hear them. We have to meet them where they are. And all of that is part of making sure that the relationship comes first. Don't you feel Luke the most capable when people really get it around you? And when they're really open to you doing things in your own way in your own time?
Luke Williams 34:22
Penny Williams 34:23
Yes. Such short answers from you today are usually such a talker. So let's have some final thoughts. What is one final thought for any kids or young adults who are neurodivergent who are listening?
Luke Williams 34:40
Don't do drugs. Okay, regardless of what your aspirations are, you can achieve them unless this aspirations are to achieve on vehicular flight. But whatever your dreams are, if you work hard enough to get it and believe in yourself together, you can get it. Regardless of your neurodivergency, and don't do drugs.
Penny Williams 35:11
Yes, I agree with that. What is your final message for parents or teachers, educators? Adults in your life?
Luke Williams 35:21
Penny Williams 35:25
Okay, what is your final helpful thought? For the adult?
Luke Williams 35:32
Um, apply what you learned here to your teaching or parenting.
Penny Williams 35:39
That's why we're doing this. Is it not?
Luke Williams 35:42
Yes, it is! It's a good observation, mom. Thank you.
Penny Williams 35:46
So I will just say for Luke, Luke's final overarching message for the adults is to quit putting pressure on. Because I know that's what you would probably say, because you've said it 1000 times. I love you. And so, my final thoughts, as I reflect on this journey of being your mom, is, one, how much I've learned from you, and how much of a better person I am and a better parent, I am, because of you. And how truly grateful I am things have been hard, no doubt. But you are an amazing human being. And I'm so very grateful that you gave me the opportunity to be more empathetic, more compassionate, more understanding, and more open to a lot of differences and a lot of different people and different perspectives. And I just feel like my life is richer, because you've helped me learn these things.
And my life is richer, because this has afforded me the opportunity to help other people. And it's so amazing to be able to spend my days helping other people, helping kids like you helping parents like me, helping the teachers and the principals, and the school counselors, to really letting people letting kids be exactly who they are, and celebrating it. And I'm just so in awe in all of you and an awe of everyone and what we get to do, and the impact that we get to make. I'm just so grateful. And that is 200 episodes. I can't believe it 200 conversations that I have had and put out there for the world and we're gonna keep going right and Luke, you're gonna be on more episodes in the future. I'm so glad. Yeah, I'm so glad I know our listeners are glad to. All right, well, number 200 is in the books. It's out there. And I'm so happy to keep having these conversations and to keep trying to help help families like ours, and help kiddos like you. So I will see everyone on the next episode. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the beautifully complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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