How to Help Kids Feel Loved and Lovable

Deborah Farmer Kris 0:03

I notice that you could have gotten really mad at your sister when she made that comment, but you didn't like that's huge. And I noticed and just make it a goal, especially if you're in a struggle time with your kids. Like make it a goal to find one thing each day that you know, you can say to them that night that you noticed.

Penny Williams 0:25

Welcome to The Parenting ADHD podcast, where I share insights and strategies on raising kids with ADHD straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, ADHD a Holic and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to The Parenting ADHD podcast. I am so excited today to be talking to Deborah Farmer Kris, who is the author of I love you all the time, and a couple of other children's books. Thanks for being here. Deborah. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. Will you start just by introducing yourself to our listeners, let everyone know who you are and what you do.

Deborah Farmer Kris 1:19

Sure. Thanks for having me. My name is Deborah Farmer Kris. And in addition to writing picture books, I am a parent educator. I'm a parenting columnist for PBS Kids. I read about education for NPR as mind shift and other outlets such as the Washington Post. And mostly I just because I am the mom of two kids, I love finding all the nuggets of wisdom I can that helps me and to try to pass them along to help other people.

Penny Williams 1:48

Yeah, good work. Super important work. Let's start I think I just want to tell everyone what really struck me. When I discovered your work. I was reading that PBS Kids article about loving your kids just the way they are and that our kids are lovable. And what struck me was that you told your daughter, I love you when you're mad. And it was something that I've never thought to do as a parent to take those really hard moments. And remind our kids that we still love them that it's okay to have these feelings. And I said, Oh, my gosh, I have to have her on the podcast, we have to talk about this more, we have to share this idea. Because it is so difficult as parents of neurodivergent kids to counterbalance all those negative messages. We're trying so hard to instill so many positive messages. And it can be really challenging to sort of find those easy times for that, right when things are going super great, right? And what I love about what you're doing is you're taking that struggle, and you're still reminding them that there's good that there's love, even when things are hard. Using that time is so amazing.

Deborah Farmer Kris 3:10

Yeah, that was the inception. That was the core impetus for this book. My daughter was about three and she had one of those epic tantrums that we all know so well as parents were just nothing was helping, right. I was trying all the things in my toolkit. And she wasn't having it probably didn't help I think was shortly after my my son was born. So you know, that's really discombobulating for kids. Yeah. And finally, I just I scooped her up, and I put her on my lap and the rocking chair. And really an almost a moment of desperation. I looked at her and I said I really love you when you're mad. And she stopped crying. And she looked at me like I was nuts. And so I continued, I said, I love you and you're happy. I love you when you're sad. I love you when you're scared. I love you when you're mad. I love you all the time. And that just kind of came out. It was, I don't know what type of thing I was channeling. But it became the mantra that I would say to my kids every night before bed. And so when my son was older, I'd say to him too. And I was so fascinated when he turned about four, because he would begin to really kind of question that.

Oh, you know, he's my spirited child. And, so he would say things like, what if I chopped down all the trees in the backyard? Would you still love me? And I said, I'll be sad about the trees. But of course, I would still love you and, and he would kind of just push these limits. And I could see that as much as it was kind of funny. He was also really asking me, Are there limits here? Yeah. And so a few years after that, when I guess well, he was about four and my daughter was just a little older. I sat down to write this book. And the refrain is I love you all the time. And I kind of go through those daily moments where you know, I love you when you make them as and when you clean it up. My favorite because it's a moment of real stress in our household in many households is those the morning rush times right when you have your kid who cannot find anything for their backpack and you're running late. And so you know the line goes, I love you when we're running late. So we rush and dash and scamper. I love you when you find your shoes behind the laundry hamper. I love you all the time. It because my son kept by this morning there in the most random places totally relatable. Yeah, and I've been reading this book too, just a ton of preschool and kindergarten classes in the last month. And I pause before that, say how many of your families summons up big emotions in the morning, people are tired or cranky, and every hand goes up. And so we read that and they laugh, but it's just that sense of, we may have these cranky, stressful moments, but the love is constant. And I think that's a message that we didn't always necessarily feel as kids. I feel like parents of our generation with almost a sense of some feelings weren't allowed or even if our parents felt it, we may not have felt it. Yeah. And I just think being so explicit about the fact that they're going to be these up and down days and up or down moments, but the love is constant. Because especially for our neurodiverse kids, beyond their interactions with us. They're hearing from their classmates and their teachers sit down, pay attention, where's your work?

I can't believe and I kind of call it like the death by 1000 paper cuts, right? Yeah, they're getting so much feedback that while it may not be malicious, it's just the subtle things that are reminding them, oh, oh, I'm a little different. i Why isn't my brain working this way. And so we have to really consciously counteract that. So you know, when I was writing these books, I was writing for my kids, but I was a teacher for 20 years. I'm also writing it for that kid who was going to be losing their shoes every single morning. And My love is with you every single morning as we find our shoes together, even when I get cranky about it, working on it as a parent.

Penny Williams 7:02

I love it. I love it so much. And what I'm hearing is that you're sort of normalizing imperfection in the story. You're saying, yeah, yeah, sometimes we lose our shoes, but it's okay. Right? We all do that. Right?

Deborah Farmer Kris 7:18

Yeah, I love you when you stay awake. And when you nap, right? And you think of that parent who's falling asleep? Right? It's like all these things that are pushing our buttons. But it's just that reminder, I think for parents too, that we have to make the implicit explicit meaning we know we love our kids all the time. But we have to be explicit about it. Because we can't just assume you know that they're going to intuit it from us. And I really am a big believer that we have to say it out loud, just like we have to, for our kids for their diverse really scaffold, what does it look like to clean up your room right, when taking a baby step at a time, we can't just assume they're going to know how to do it, that we can't just assume that they know in that moment when we are feeling a little cranky that that's our emotional reaction, perhaps, but that has no bearing on our deep, deep love for them.

Penny Williams 8:11

Yeah, and that's so powerful. It's so powerful to really express it and, and kids who are neurodivergent often struggle with reading between the lines, right? Reading facial expression and tone of voice, so they're not going to necessarily get that you're smiling at them or winking at them, even though it's a frustrating situation, because you can't find the other shoe. Right. And so exactly, being very explicit with our kids especially, is so important.

Deborah Farmer Kris 8:43

Yeah, and this is what kind of makes them light up. And so you know, when I'm thinking about like, one of the reasons I love my publisher free spirit is the article in PBS Kids that you're referencing is actually the end pages of the book. And so all free spirit books have kind of letters to caregivers at the end. So this is the letter to caregivers, which is how do you apply this? Because for me, I feel like I read all the parenting books because I have to it's part of my job. I do a lot of reviews. But you know, if you are in the throes of parenting, sometimes you just don't always have time. So that's why he listened to a great podcast while you're doing the dishes or driving, or for me, you're reading a book to your kids. And so, maybe that's a vehicle that can help. And so, one of the suggestions is, just to use that phrase, I noticed Yes. And I feel like that's my go to phrase so often my kids and I did Salon at night, Tarik, when there's something about the magic of a dark bedroom and sitting on the edge of the bed and just say, you know, I noticed today that you fed the dog and I didn't have to remind you and I really appreciate that. And I noticed that you could have gotten really mad at your sister when she made that comment, but you didn't like that's huge and I noticed and just make it a goal, especially if you're in a struggle time with your kids. Yeah, like make it a goal to find one thing each day that you know, you can say to them that night that you noticed.

Penny Williams 10:12

That's a practice that I did with my own son when he was young, too. Every night I said, I love it when you blink today, when you put your pajamas in the dirty clothes basket this morning, when you brush your teeth, and I only asked three times, right? Because I needed that reminder that there was good in the day, and so did he. And he got to go to sleep, feeling loved feeling seen, and it was so, so valuable. And he's like, Tina, I don't get to document anymore. But as long as I did, that was something that I did. And it was really, really powerful and so simple.

Deborah Farmer Kris 10:50

I agree. I just feel like even though the bedtime brush can be so stressful, that like if there's that moment where they're finally in bed, or you can just end the day with one. Thank you for I noticed. I love it when you write, even if it's like, I love how excited you got about the Celtics game today. I had a great one on Sunday, Mike, my son's a big Celtics fan. And it just says, I know this, I noticed what you love. And I love it too. Yeah. And you know, or I loved watching you play basketball in the driveway today, it was really fun to watch you. And those again, it's just that I may have told him 17 times to brush his teeth. And he may have said he did and I felt the toothbrush. And we had that conversation. But I don't want that to be the last conversation of the day, at least most of the time, right? As much as I can muster it. If I can flip that and it becomes a ritual. Oh, that's a beautiful one. So yeah, I love that you did that. I tried to do the same thing, because I just goes into the night and says it's almost like that and surely has began to come gables fan like, tomorrow's a new day with no mistakes in it. Yes. And it's almost like we're putting you to bed with a clean slate.

Penny Williams 11:59

Yes. I always hung on to that quote from Anna Green Gables, too. Yeah, it was my favorite part of the whole thing was tomorrow was a new day, with no mistakes on it. It's so powerful. And noticing is a practice that would benefit all of us. You know, it's really practicing mindfulness, yes. But when we talk about it in the frame of just noticing, I think it makes it more doable for us as parents, right, like, practicing mindfulness sounds hard, it sounds like we really have to focus. And we really have to put a lot of thought and effort into it. But really, it's just noticing things and sometimes noticing them out loud, being aware of what our kids are going through being aware of what sort of fueling behavior sometimes being aware of when something was really hard, and they did it anyway, or they accomplished it. They focused on it enough to get it done when that was super hard for them. Right. And sometimes that feels really not genuine. For parents, like we're celebrating, when our kid brought home his lunchbox for the first time in the week, where a typical family wouldn't find that celebratory, right, but when you are noticing, it doesn't feel so sort of out of scale of what's happening, because you're just noticing,

Deborah Farmer Kris 13:27

I absolutely agree, I noticed for me is a really magic phrase. And it is both in parenting and in teaching. Because it can also work when there's something you want to point out without any shame or guilt, or I can't believe it. For me, sometimes I'll just say, oh, I noticed that there's some shoes in the front hallway, right, and it gives them a chance to scamper and put them away without judgment, like get over here and put your shoes away. I've asked you six times, because it's not malicious issues are everywhere around the house. Exactly. It's just gives an opportunity or like, I noticed that you haven't talked much about so and so a friend, right? It may say that in the car. And it gives them opportunity. If something's happening for them to talk about it. Or, as I noticed, you looked a little sad, and you came home from school. I mean, I do this as a teacher all the time, pull them after class and say I noticed I ever heard your voice special last couple of days, I just wanted to check in it doesn't mean they have to say anything. But it says to them, you're seeing it. I just feel like as humans, and you know, even our two year old tensioning and they're just they're little humans. And it feels really good to be seen the real it feels really good. Somebody's noticing us.

Penny Williams 14:40

Yes. And noticing our authentic self who we really are. Because I think that's very, very tough for kids who are neurodivergent they are so worried about and working so hard on fitting in, that they're not really presenting their authentic True Self To the world. And when we notice, as parents when we're doing that extra work, and we're really paying close attention, and we notice who they really are, what's really going on for them. It's magical for a kid and to think about as a parent, it feels really good as an adult to write. It really sees us, and maybe appreciate something that we've said or done, or just appreciates having us around like, that feels really great. And it feels really great for our kids to Yeah, noticing, like the shoes are in the middle of the hallway, is using declarative language, right? And that really helps with building skills for our kids who are often developmentally delayed. Yeah, we're building problem solving skills. We're building organizational skills, because now we've asked them to think about, where would the right home for my shoes be? Where are they supposed to live? You know, and so we're giving them help without any of that judgment. Like you said, we're leaving the judgment out of it. It's what I consider the scaffolding part of support. You know, we're still helping, but we're not leaving, we're letting them figure it out.

Deborah Farmer Kris 16:19

It's like when you say, right, it's a big project. What's one thing you want to start with right now, it's like you pick the one thing, one small thing, but you let them pick it right? Like, this whole room is a mess. What's one thing you know, that you want to do first, maybe it's pick up the socks, right? And you just you just start there. Because otherwise it's too big and overwhelming. And you know, as the kids get older, ne advantage I think of this kind of digital texting world is, it's a great opportunity for your tween and teen to send that quiet little message right to send them a little text, a little note on the bathroom mirror that says the same thing. Like, I love it when, I noticed. And I'll say this, as somebody who taught middle school for many years, I've taught just about every grade, but I did middle for the most. And I know that parents think that their kids hate them when they're in middle school. And they, they are desperate for the love. And so sometimes I would see that their mom had like, or dad had written them like a little note in their lunchbox, and they may not show anybody else. But let's see their smile, right? It was like, oh, yeah, and they won't go home and tell their parents, thank you. So sometimes I would say, Hey, I noticed you doing that to the parents, like keep at it, it's good for them. Because the while they may not respond reciprocally to like the love you're putting out. They are desperate for it even more at that time, because they're just feeling the weight of the judgment of their peers and their teachers. And if like, if you are that safe landing spot, who was letting them know that I just, I love watching use, make your bracket for March Madness. Like, if your kids just super into something, just let them know, whatever their interest is. You think it's cool. Yeah, whatever that thing is that is making them excited. You think it's cool, too?

Penny Williams 18:06

Yeah, yeah, really trying to relate. I think kids in middle school feel so unrelatable. And they still really need our help, and I think even want our help. But they don't want to they want to be independent, they don't want to need their parents. And so that push and pull is so difficult. And I love just giving them reminders that we're thinking about them that we love them, even when we wouldn't necessarily think to do it, you know that I would have been the parent who would worry, oh, their peers are gonna make fun of them if they see this note in their lunchbox, because I am an anxious person and I had social anxiety still have social anxiety. But it was really hard in school, right? And so I was always projecting that kind of thing, which was my own stuff. But onto my kids and I would worry about it. And I love that you're saying nobody else has to see it. Like kids aren't really paying attention to that. And your child isn't gonna go look, my mommy left me a note in my lungs. Today, right? But to themselves, I'll be stealthy about it. That's so awesome.

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So we've talked about three, I believe steps of how to help kids feel loved and lovable, correct with love. Letting them know that we love them in all different sorts of places and states and emotions, noticing their efforts of writing love notes you're just talking about and what's the fourth and final piece of that.

Deborah Farmer Kris 20:39

A lot of it is just an I think this is such a wonderful reminder to parents when we're feeling at the end of our rope. But it is true that actually just being there for our kids, is one of the most valuable things we can do. And I will say one of the most helpful pieces of research I've ever found. So I have probably include this in eight of my one to 10 articles I've written the last decade. It comes from Harvard Center for the developing child, and they studied kids and resilience kids who had been through traumatic events, and who had emerged, okay. And what they discovered was that the single most common factor for children who develop resilience is at least one stable and committed relationship with a supportive parent, caregiver or other adult, like that one stable, it doesn't say one perfect person. No, it doesn't say one, brilliantly trained mom who's read 1000 books that was just stable, committed relationship. And so it's that kind of just being there.

And obviously, we're working on ourselves through this. But so much of it is just saying, Okay, I'm going to get down on, at my kids and I level or I'm going to make an effort to just remind them, even though they think it's hokey now that they're 13, I love you all the time, because they still crave it, even when they roll their eyes. I think one of my favorite phrases from parenting is from Tony Morrison, who was talking to Oprah Winfrey, once and she said, I used to think that part of being a good mother was making sure my kids were, the clothes were clean, and the things were washed. But then I realized what they really needed was for my face to light up when they walked in the room. And so she said, that's the question does your face light up when your child walks the room, and then she added, which I love and not just your child, any child. And so I think about that a lot with my kids like on pickup, right? That's a piece of actionable parenting strategy for me, yeah, where I'm going to the pickup line, and I've had a busy day, but my kids are looking for my car, I can see them. And I make sure like, my eyes get wide, and I smile and wave and like, they're looking for me. And then I start to wave my daughter who's you know, a tween now, she was like, I'm not gonna wave back my son horses waving wildly.

And but either way, they know I'm excited to see them when they get in the car, and when they wake up in the morning, I tried to be able to say, Good morning, it's great to see you. Again, that may not be reciprocated, but they're looking for their person. And everybody shoved somebody whose face lights up when they see them, but then when she added not just you but other people's kids. And this is where I think, we do such a great model for when we're at the playground or with their friends. If there's a kid who comes up who our child may not be sure how to interact with, they may be presenting with different behaviors or reactions, that we can model, treating any child with that kind of bright face, because we are showing to them, that we don't reserve our care just for somebody who is acting in a socially appropriate way. And I think that as a parent, as a teacher, like that's one of the best modeling things I can do for kids is to say, I am delighted by everyone who comes, whether they're stimming or they're raising their hand, in a perfectly prescribed manner. I'm still excited for their participation.

Penny Williams 24:21

Yeah. And I'm hearing a lot of connection and the importance of the value of connection within this that you know, the Harvard study where you need one committed adult committed stable adults, bright, you need connection with that adult. That's the magic I think behind that is that connection, regulates our bodies and our nervous system. It calms us it makes us be able to feel confident and competent. It provides you know this open door to feeling good about ourselves. was, and to being able to do good. You know, we talk a lot about, when we feel good, we do good. And when we don't feel good, it's really hard to do good. And that goes for kids and adults alike. And when we feel connection, and we get all the benefits of connection, we're feeling good, and we're able to do good. And it's so valuable and important. You know, when you were talking about that study, I just kept thinking, it's that connection, that relationship, we work a lot with families on the relationship, because that is so very important. You know, when you're battling over homework, every night, you get to spend a few hours every night with your kid. And homework is so hard for them, it takes them forever, and you feel like they need to do it, right, because that's the pressure you're receiving as a parent. And, you have to be able to step back and say, okay, my relationship with my kid is the most important. Yeah, and that's really what they need so much more than practicing their long division on 30 problems, write

Deborah Farmer Kris 26:13

Honestly, even being explicit about it, and saying, via I love you all the time. I love you too much to fight with you. But your homework right now, yes, that, I know that this is frustrating, but you need to know it to even say that I love you too much too. And like, let's go take a walk, take a deep breath. And then you can choose whether you come back to this or not. And if this is such a source of pain, knowing that your relationship is so vital, you've got to take that step back sometimes.

Penny Williams 26:45

Yeah. And by doing so, again, you're, you're showing your kid that you see them, you see that it's a struggle, you want them to have a better experience, right? I mean, I don't want to fight with my kid all evening about homework, I don't want homework to be so sort of damaging really to that, um, some of our kids have significant learning challenges. And it's so super hard. And it was something I learned in elementary school, I would just start writing a note on top of homework papers. And I would say, Okay, we worked on this for the 30 minutes that you expect your students to work on homework. And then we, we ended and we focused on something else, or family time, or whatever. And, there were some days where I would send a note in and say, it just wasn't a good day, we just couldn't do any homework. And, you have to know your child, my child was learning, he just struggled with the output and showing that he was learning in the ways he was expected to. And so for me, that was an easy choice to make, because his emotional and mental health mattered more to me than showing that he knew the math, right for the 30th time, right on that piece of paper.

Deborah Farmer Kris 28:05

Right? And not only that, if you find that you're in the mode where the kids are fighting or crying, their executive function skills are shut down. Yeah. You know, like, once you go into fight or flight mode, your instinctive brain takes over. Yep. And so for kids who struggle with executive function anyway, they're not going to be able to solve that problem, even if they can, if they're in fight or flight mode. Yep. Because that's the part of the brain that is now flooded the executive function. So until they've calmed down until you've done this connecting things, there will be no more math that is happening, no matter how much you sit at the table and say, dang it, you're going to finish this problem, their capacity to do it, even if it's something they know, they may not be able to do it because they're in fight or flight mode. Yeah, they have no access, and that's when they need us to help co regulate their emotions. Yeah, and be like, we're gonna snuggle the dog now you're gonna go do something, and then maybe when their executive function comes back online, right? When their their nervous system has calmed. Yeah, they may take another look at it, or they may not. But it escalates because it Like, legitimately, when that happens, their brain cannot do it. Yeah.

Penny Williams 29:12

I talk to parents a lot about the fact that when your emotional brain or survival brain is flooded, yeah, it has taken over and it's blocking the thinking brain, there's no access.

Deborah Farmer Kris 29:22

It's offline. It's offline for a while. It's a reboot completely.

Penny Williams 29:25

Yes, unattainable. And for me raising a kid with ADHD and on the spectrum, that was one of the most pivotal parenting moments for me, was understanding that he couldn't process he couldn't think cognitively. He couldn't rationalize because I'm a type A super rational iser. So every time somebody was wrong, what was I doing? Well, I was just trying to talk him through it and talk him out of it right and it never ever, ever worked. And that was why.

Deborah Farmer Kris 29:59

No matter how good your advice was Penny.

Penny Williams 30:00

Right, no matter how beautiful, I was trying to guide that conversation never worked. And I couldn't understand it, right, because in my mind, it just made sense. But he wasn't able to hear me and process what I was saying and rationalize and take action on that, because he was already in that fight or flight or freeze mode. And that's really, really powerful, powerful information for parents to have, have any kids, neurotypical or not, it's really important to understand the biology behind the behavior.

Deborah Farmer Kris 30:39

That was actually very much in my mind when I wrote the second book, which is your feelings all the time, because it's really just about an emotional vocabulary. And I really believe that the sooner we equip kids with the language to say how they're feeling, and there's just such good research on this, otherwise, they feel like they are the emotion, right just takes them over. And they're just a passenger on the anger ship, or the frustration ship. Yes. And so the more they learn about the biology, even five rolls, I'll pull up the glitter jar and say, when you're really, really mad, you shake it up, this is what your brain can look like. And when you take deep breaths and calm it down, then the waters clear. And you can make, you can choose what to do. But then it's just the sense for them that, otherwise, they feel out of control. They can't name that they don't know why. And the more we put them back in the driver's seat of you know, even just being able to name their emotions to just know what's happening during the fight or flight and freeze response. Right?

I give tons of workshops on this for kids of this is what's what's this what it looks like in your brain in your body. Everybody has this. everybody's scared, everybody gets frustrated. You know, it is really normal for your brain to be flooded with this feeling. And it doesn't last no emotion lasts forever. Yeah, if you're in an acute kind of anxiety spiral, there are things you can do to help like, what's your strategy box here for bringing that down?

Penny Williams 32:02

Yeah, there's so many regulation strategies

Deborah Farmer Kris 32:05

There are but part of what you want to do is just normalize at first, like everybody goes through this. And you know, you're not weird for suddenly freezing up. I freeze up sometimes. So dad freezes up. Sometimes your teacher does, too. Yeah, we've just found some different strategies, and we can help you too.

Penny Williams 32:20

Yeah, one of the best things we can do for our kids is to be imperfect in front of them absolutely human in front of them, it gives them permission. So that like, right, and it helps them to know that sometimes we all have a struggle. Sometimes we all trip up. Sometimes we all get super angry. Right? Or super sad, and it's okay. And normalizing those feelings, they think is something our culture really needs to work on. 100% We need to work on anger is normal, and it's okay. It's what you do with it that matters.

Deborah Farmer Kris 32:55

They're no good or bad emotion. Right? That's all part of what makes us human. Yeah. They'll say to even young kids, like, what if you were never ever scared, then what would happen if you like a train wreck coming toward you, and you if you weren't scared, you wouldn't run out of the way, like all of these emotions give us data. They all give us information that can be helpful to us. And so you know, just again, normalizing and saying there are no good or bad emotions. It is it's what you do when there's, when you're feeling mad, that's fine. What can we do with it? Now? What are some options for you? When you feel this way?

Penny Williams 33:27

Yeah, yeah. And I love you when you're mad.

Deborah Farmer Kris 33:30

Yes. Oh, I had to just share. I was at a school recently. And I knew the teacher and she was sitting in the back was an autistic boy, because, having a guest speaker like that's a change in routine. That's not, that's not always easy. So yep, she was sitting in the back with him. And halfway through as reading the book, I love you all the time. These are second graders, and he turned to her and he said, You love me all the time. Even when I'm having bad days. This book is just like you. And I thought, you should keep up when she was crying, like, Can I get a copy of this book to give to him? So you know, she could write in it. You know, she wanted him to feel that and I thought and she's been working with this kids so patiently and so beautifully for all these months. And like it gave him the words that moment. I thought, yeah, that's why I wrote this book, right there.

Penny Williams 34:17

That gave me goosies all the way to my toes. That's so beautiful. And every kid deserves that. Yeah, every single kid deserves to be seen and understood and loved no matter what. We of course, have already come to the end of our time together. So fun to talk to you, Penny. Yeah, both of us could talk about this stuff for ages. And we'll have to do a follow up and have you back later on. But for everyone listening, definitely check out Deborah's book, and website and social media. We're gonna link everything up for you in the show notes which are found at parentingADHDandautism.com/173 for episode 173. Have any three and I think everyone for listening, I am very appreciative to your Deborah for sharing some of your time and wisdom with us as well. And with that, I'll see everyone next week. Thanks for joining me on the parenting ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses, parent coaching and Mama retreats at parentingADHDandautism.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai