PAP 159

Supporting a Transgender Journey

with Wynne Nowland

Gender diversity is more common among neurodiverse kids and teens, especially those on the autism spectrum. People who do not identify with the sex they were assigned at birth are three to six times as likely to have autism as people who don’t question their gender assignment, according to the latest studies on the subject. Neurodivergent kids have trouble fitting in and they often explore different communities to discover where they fit, including the transgender community.  In this episode of the Parenting ADHD Podcast, I have an open and honest conversation with transgender woman, Wynne Nowland, about how parents, friends, and families can support a child or teen who is questioning their assigned gender or has reached the realization that they are transgender. One of the most important aspects is getting mental health experts involved to help you and your child navigate gender exploration and gender identity. A humanistic approach is key to a healthy journey. This episode is for every human! It’s time to open our hearts and minds to accept every single person as their authentic selves.

Resources in this Episode

NOTE: Some of the resources below may be affiliate links, meaning I receive a commission (at no cost to you) if you use that link to make a purchase.

Wynne Nowland

 
Wynne Nowland is the CEO of Bradley & Parker, she is also a transgender woman. At the age of 56, she came out as trans to her entire company in an email—featured in the WSJ—saying “You’ve all known me as Wayne, but tomorrow morning I will arrive to work as Wynne.” She was already out to her family and many friends, but coming out at work was her final step to being who she truly was and almost everyone at her firm greeted her with open arms. As one of the very few trans CEOs, Wynne is able to provide unique insight on trans issues and topics as a trans business leader and entrepreneur.

Thanks for joining me!

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Wynne Nowland 0:03

It's a confusing time when kids feel that they don't belong and they feel different. It's a confusing time. And I think it's important that, we turn to the professionals to help them sort that out, and to make sure that they have the best chance they can to come to the right conclusion for them, and to have ultimately the right outcome.

Penny Williams 0:28

Welcome to The Parenting ADHD podcast, where I share insights and strategies on raising kids with ADHD straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, ADHD a Holic and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started.

Welcome back to The Parenting ADHD podcast. I am truly excited to have with me todayWynne Noland and we are going to talk about supporting a transgender journey, we're going to talk about what transgender is, how to support someone who is going through that process, or maybe just starting to think that maybe they are transgender themselves? Will you start when just by telling everybody who you are what you do a little bit about your story?

Wynne Nowland 1:30

Sure, Penny happy to do so. So my name is Wynne Nolan does, Penny said. And I transitioned about I guess about six years or so ago. Now. In my day job or my regular job. I'm the CEO of a company called Bradley and Parker, in New York, that is an insurance and financial services firm, mostly for corporations. And since I came out, as I said, five or six years ago, now, maybe for the first year or two, aside from the very public part of coming out, I kind of kept the publicity about my transition to a minimum to you know, my business associates, my friends, my family, people I interact with on a daily basis, and kind of avoided some of the publicity that was out there, because I have a fairly high profile role. But about two years after my transition, I decided that it might be beneficial for me to share some of my story more publicly, just kind of, I don't want to say to be a mentor, or to provide a roadmap for people undergoing certain of the same things. But really more just as an example, of someone who transitions in a public situation, and had a very good result. There's a lot of bad transition stories that float around out there. Unfortunately, as with kind of all of the news, we get the bad news seems to rise to the top. So I thought that it was a good thing to have kind of a different voice on some positive outcomes.

Penny Williams 3:13

Absolutely. And sharing our story is always helpful to others. There's always someone who's feeling alone and can relate. And hearing your story might just make them feel a little less alone, if nothing else. So it's so powerful to share a little of yourself. And I know, in your situation that must be exceptionally difficult at times to do that.

Wynne Nowland 3:38

Yeah. So I think that on the whole, my transition went very well, for me, a lot of people have a very difficult time with transition, they have a problem with some of the outward signs, the physical signs, the wardrobes, the wardrobe changes, the hair changes, those can be challenging for some people, I was very lucky, I didn't have many of those challenges. I also had very good support, both from people in my personal life and my business life. And I will tell you that since coming out publicly, I should say in a more public fashion, which was about two years ago now. The Wall Street Journal did a fairly major piece on me. And you know, after that happened, there was a lot more coverage. And I've been on a couple of major news broadcasts. And I have to tell you that the overwhelming response has been positive. There are always going to be haters out there. You know, I think that they're in a minority thankfully, but they do have a habit of making their voices heard. And my situation is no exception. We've had to deal with some of that. But it is really been background chatter. That hasn't been anything that's been prevalent. And, as I said, most of the feedback has been extremely positives. So yeah, so like, I think it's kind of one of those things where I think I had some anxiety about doing it in the beginning, because you know, you don't know what to expect when you rip the band aid off. But I have to say that, after I realized that, that by sharing my story, so publicly, I was starting to help some people and the negative feedback was very minimal. I'd got considerably easier as as you might imagine.

Penny Williams 5:28

Let's start by defining what transgender is and isn't.

Wynne Nowland 5:35

So you know, first of all, I just want to say that everything I say to you today for your podcast, is just kind of my views. As a private person who has been on this journey. I have no medical training, I have no psychological training. And there's a lot of different flavors of ice cream out there. So it's not a one size fits all situation. But I'm certainly happy to go down whatever road you want to go.

Penny Williams 6:00

Yeah, I just want to be clear about what transgender is for people who don't know, because I think there's still a big part of our population that does not know, doesn't understand.

Wynne Nowland 6:11

Yeah, so I think the easiest simplest because I like to keep it simple, easiest, simple solution is most people who are transgender, don't believe that the gender that they were assigned at birth, or their birth, gender, is how they feel they are right. So it's pretty simple, right? We all get assigned to gender at birth, it's usually based on you know, genitalia, and transgender people generally don't feel that that matches up with who they are.

Penny Williams 6:45

Right. So I imagine then that sort of leads to maybe some gender questioning, or maybe not, maybe some really understand who they are very clearly at a young age.

Wynne Nowland 7:00

So yeah, I mean, you see a lot of that now. I mean, I think part of it is because the culture in the country is different now than it was a generation two generations three generations ago. Hmm. So I think that even though as you said, a lot of people don't know, still exactly what it is, there's still more public awareness about it than there was years ago. So I think sometimes, it's easier for people to reach conclusions, because they have some outside information coming in, right. So you know, I'm of the baby boomer generation. So you know, when I was five or six years old, and knew that I didn't really quite fit in, it was hard for me to understand exactly why that was. I understand now that there are kids that are three, four and five years old, and have a very clear idea of who they are and who they're not. That wasn't the case for me. And I know, it's not the case for a lot of trans people. So you know, it's very variable as to when the light bulb goes off, right? Frequently, people know there's something wrong, or there's something they shouldn't say wrong, there's something different. But they can't quantify it. So I think that's kind of a variable difference for people as they experience this.

Penny Williams 8:16

Yeah. And so for kids, maybe kids and teens who feel really different, they know there's something different. And they're sort of on a journey to figure out what that means for them what, how they want to identify? How can the people in their lives, their family, their parents, really support that sort of exploration?

Wynne Nowland 8:39

So I think that's a fabulous question. And I think the most important thing to do is, once a parent feels that the gender identity is a problem for their child, they would be well advised to seek professional help. You know, this is now a common area of psychological work. And there are many, many experts all over the country, that have good experience in dealing with these things, and helping the children and to some degree, their families navigate what's going on. You know, one of the things Penny is that growing up is not easy for some people, some people just sail through their growing up process, and others don't. And when people don't sail through that process, sometimes they think it's a gender dysphoria or identification issue. But it turns out, it really isn't. It's a confusing time. When kids feel that they don't belong and they feel different. It's a confusing time and I think it's important that, we turn to the professionals to help them sort that out, and to make sure that you know, they have the best chance they can to come to the right conclusion for them and to have ultimately the right outcome,

Penny Williams 10:02

Yeah, to sort of discover who they authentically are right? Right, to find that.

Wynne Nowland 10:07

Sometimes during that process, people find out that they're not trans, you know that there's something else going on. And they identify that and they work on that, and they come through in a different manner. You know, one of the things we spoke earlier a little bit about definition of what trans is what transgender is. And I think one of the things that's common in the misconception department, is people confuse gender identity with gender attraction. So what do I mean by that? So a person can be bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, there's some others, even I have a tough time keeping up with the variations, but those are the major ones these days. And of course, if you're heterosexual, you're attracted to the opposite sex, if you're homosexual, you're attracted to the same sex. And if you're bisexual, you're attracted to both. A lot of people, especially since you know, in the LGBTQ community, trans people get kind of lumped in with, the various homosexual people, that it's kind of all related. And it really isn't, it's really a separate issue. So you can have a trans person who is homosexual, and you can have a trans person who's heterosexual. So sometimes with kids, there can be some confusion about that, right? So if I was assigned male at birth, and I like other guys will, maybe I'm a girl, well, maybe you are, but maybe you're not. Maybe you're just homosexual. Right. So those are the kinds of things that I think the therapists can help parents out with.

Penny Williams 11:48

Yeah. And one thing that stood out to me, as you were explaining, some of that is that it's a matter of trying to figure out where you fit in, who's your tribe? And where are your people? Yep. And for kids who have ADHD or are on the spectrum, they more often look into this area as well. Maybe I'm transgender, maybe I'm, non binary, maybe there's so many of these things now, that is really talked about in our culture that wasn't before. And I think that, because they don't feel like they have anywhere to fit kids with ADHD and autism, that they're really seeking. And they explore more areas now than I think maybe, our generation is the parent and generations before. And I think it's so very important that we support that exploration, because otherwise we're kind of pushing our kids away.

Wynne Nowland 12:50

So that that, to me is a really, really excellent point. First of all, I mean, just in general, I think for some kids growing up, as we discussed a few minutes ago can be challenging. And if they're questioning their gender, then it's even more challenging. But when you add to that equation, the extra almost burden of some of the conditions that you guys work with, they have even more to sort out, than somebody who doesn't have those issues, right. And, it's so funny, as with so many things in life, many things are a double edged sword. So I think that you know, the information about trans people and the different kinds of things that they can go through and the different roles that are out there. I think that that has been overall good, because I just think more education is always good, yes. But there is some negative that goes with that. And I think for people that are really searching, but don't really know, well, now, this is something else they can add to the list that maybe if they didn't know about it, they wouldn't necessarily in so I think that again, we keep going back to my main point here, is you really need professional help to sort all this out. Yeah, to try to do this on their own, even with the most supportive parents in the world is probably not prudent.

Penny Williams 14:15

Yeah, I can just only imagine the feelings and the anxiety and the worry that comes with trying to figure this out for yourself, wondering, Am I a different gender than I was born? Am I you know, non binary. Am I just gay? You know, where do I fit again, it's, I think it's already human nature, as children, and especially as teens to try to figure out where you fit. Yeah, yeah. And when you add ADHD or autism, now, it's more difficult for you to fit in a lot of places, right. Kids with those diagnoses tend to struggle more in finding where they fit And now they have all of these different groups to kind of try on for lack of a better term.

Wynne Nowland 15:07

Right, it almost can be overwhelming. Right?

Penny Williams 15:11

And then so they're trying maybe a particular group, but that also comes with a lot of emotional work that has to happen, right? And a lot of anxiety about, Am I making the right choice? I don't like to use that word choice and what we're talking about, because I know it's not a choice. But you know, am I going down the right path for me? Or am I not? Right? Is this really who I am? And it has to be so much more complex, behind difficult to navigate. So of course, they need more professional help to really sort of investigate all these different avenues, right, and figure out what is authentic to them? What is genuine? Yes, yes, yeah. I wanted to ask too, about helping others in our lives, to understand transgender and to be supportive, where maybe it's not natural for them. And I'm kind of dancing around what I'm trying to say here, of course, but you know, it's so common. Still, even though we're talking about it so much more for people to feel like it's a choice, and feel like, it's not the best choice. And I think to really support transgender people, or to support kids and teens who are navigating this journey to try to even figure out where they fit, that everyone is open to whatever comes how do we help to sort of open hearts and minds around us, I guess, is what I'm asking.

Wynne Nowland 16:55

Yeah, I mean, and that's, that overall question is kind of why I went so public with my own story is that I truly believe that the way to acceptance in most cases is to normalize experiences. Yeah, the trans population right now, politically, we're getting a lot of, there's a lot of noise about trans people politically right now. You know, for whatever reason, we've seen to become the target of the far right, whether it's playing sports, or whether it's denial of healthcare, or whether it's the bathroom issue, there's all this buzz, you can hardly read a major newspaper in a week where something isn't happening. And what's kind of interesting about that is that the trans population in this country is really minuscule. I forget what the number is right off the top of my head, I should know, but I'm forgetting as we sit here, but it's really small. Yeah. So my point is, there's a lot of people that don't know any transgender people, there's just running their circle.

So I think that the way to combat that is for more people to be more public about it, because then it normalizes the situation, maybe people who see a story about me in the journal, or see some other trans people that are out there, in the public eye, so they don't have someone in their life personally, but at least they get the benefit of some of these experience. So I think that's kind of an issue, that it needs to be normalized. Yeah. And I feel a lot of empathy for parents who are dealing with this situation. And I think sometimes the parents get kind of lost in the mix. And I think that's unfortunate. Because I think, we've all heard, and there's plenty of these stories out there. Unfortunately, we've all heard of parents, and frequently, they're a very strict religious upbringing. Not all the time, but frequently, frequently, they're in the so called red states, again, not all the time. But frequently, parents who just are totally unsupportive to the degree that when it happens to teens, they'll throw the kids out of the house, rather than accept the fact that their child is transgender.

You know, I think for a lot of parents, that kind of non acceptance is difficult for them to perceive, because I don't think most parents feel that way. Right. But those situations absolutely exist. So as I said, with the older kids, you can be throwing them out of the house. Or if they don't throw them out of the house, they will refuse to use you know, the preferred pronouns. They'll refuse to use the preferred name. And as you could imagine, that just does tremendous damage. Yeah. for younger kids, younger kids aren't old enough to go on their own. Obviously, the same thing can happen, they will refuse to use the pronouns refuse to use the names, they'll refuse psychological or medical treatment. Yeah. So you know, that's a real, real tough situation for people. But I think there's also a wide variety of parents who want to do the right thing for their kids want to support their kids. But that doesn't mean that they don't need time to adjust and time to process this whole thing.

You know, yes, let's take a family, they have like, three girls, right. And they always wanted a boy, that was one of the boy, they always wanted a boy, it's such a common situation, people like balanced families, it's just the way right. So finally, after years and years, they have the sun and everybody is ecstatic, and 5678910, however many years it is later, their son comes to them and says, I think I'm a trans woman, I think I'm a woman, you can put yourself in that parents place, it's a shock to the system, they need time to adjust to it. So I think it's really important that we differentiate between the parents who just are really radical and non supportive. And those that need that time to go through their own journey. And candidly, Penny, I think most of the parents fall into that group, I think it's kind of unrealistic to think a parent is just gonna say, Oh, that's great, I just don't think that's how we're wired. You know, I think it takes time, even in the ones that that want to be as supportive as they can.

Penny Williams 21:46

Absolutely. Even for parents who want their kids to be their authentic selves. And truly believe in that and really value that you're talking about shifting a lot of what you know about your child. So if your kid is 18, and says, I'm transgender, you've had 18 years of calling that child by a particular name, a particular pronoun, a particular gender, 18 years creates a lot of habits. And it's really hard to undo those. And so even for the parent who wants so much to support their child, they're going to make mistakes, it's going to take time to process and honestly, there is some grief in that process, too. There just has to be, it's not that the person that they are the kid that they thought they had is gone, because they're the same person inside. But part of what they've always seen or identified as their kid is gone. And I think there has to be some grief and some mental health work that has to go with that it has to take time. And I think that too, is part of what a mental health professional can really help the transgender person with in understanding, yes, your parents slips up sometimes and calls you your former name, which I know is called the Dead name. Right? All right, but they're not being disrespectful of who you are. They're just still really trying to make that transition themselves. Right.

Wynne Nowland 23:25

So true. You know, if you think about so many things in life, the best outcomes usually come when both parties are open minded, and supportive and tolerant. And this is no different. A very similar kind of dynamic to what you just mentioned with the parents, an 18 year old is you take someone like myself, who transition much later in life, and has all sorts of relationships, personal relationships, family, relationships, business relationships, and just like in the everyday relationships, like my neighborhood butcher or my neighborhood dry cleaner, right? You know, they knew me for some of them 20, 30 years as a certain way. And then, the transition process for many people. And certainly for me, not everyone does this, but I did was very sudden. You know, I kind of picked a day and made all my plans around that day. So you know, one day I presented mail and the next day for these people, I presented female, and to think that they're just going to automatically get that is just crazy. Yeah. So you need to be tolerant of their mistakes. And I can tell you that with me. Many people made mistakes in the beginning, and now hardly anybody does hardly anybody I know makes a mistake. Time has passed and they've gotten used to it.

I use a couple of tricks that for me worked you know, I used the tech Technology, I sent emails to everybody I knew about what was going on with me and that I was transitioning and what my new name was and, and even a little bit about why I was doing this. And then for people that I didn't know, their email addresses, like, my favorite restaurant or my butcher, my dry cleaner, I actually sent them snail mail letters. And one of the reasons why I did that was I put myself in their position, right? So you obviously want your interaction with these people that you've known to be as positive as it can be. But when you blindside somebody, let's use my dry cleaner. I've been going in there twice a week for 20 years to get my shirts and suits done. And they know who I am, I look a certain way. And then all of a sudden, I look very different. It's clear that I've changed my gender presentation, and I just walk in there off the street. Their initial reaction, if they're the most supportive person in the world is still going to be one of surprise. Yes. You know, I'm sure maybe there's somebody out there, that wouldn't be but but pretty much that's their initial reaction. So by kind of alerting them to what was going on before they saw me for that first time, I think it went a long way into easing the whole process for everyone.

Penny Williams 26:24

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I love that you did that. I love that you thought about the others, too.

Wynne Nowland 26:30

Yeah. So I think that advice actually can translate some to parents whose children going through this journey, let people know what's going on before you get together with them for the first time. Yeah, for sure. You know, and I'm talking about even ancillary people, because those can be some of the most difficult situations. Yeah, obviously, if you're taking them over to the grandparents, you're going to tell their grandparents, I would hope. But you know, things that are a little bit not as familial as that. I think it's great advice to still try to get some advance notice out there so people know what to expect.

Penny Williams 27:06

Yeah, that's such good advice. There was one more topic that I wanted to talk to you about before we close, which was a fear of not being safe. You know, I know that some parents who have kids on this journey are super concerned about their safety. And unfortunately, I think it's a real concern. Right now in our culture. What advice do you have on that? Like, what, what sort of?

Wynne Nowland 27:37

That's Penny? That is, first of all, it's, it's super tough. And you're absolutely right, though, about the concern? Again, I don't have my hands on the statistics, but I can tell you, that violence against trans people, and particularly an additional subset violence against trans people of color, is very disproportionate to violence in general. Yeah. So we got I don't know what the statistics are, but very disproportionate. Yeah. So it is an absolute issue. And sadly, as with so many things in our country, right now, everything seems to relate to the color of the states, right? You know, we had so much time worried about the color of people's skins. Now we worry about the color of the stage. And those kinds of fears are unfortunately, a little bit more prevalent in those kinds of areas. So depending upon where you live, so I'm here in New York, in a suburb of New York City, I'm about 20 miles outside of New York City. And this tends to be a pretty liberal area. Yeah. And a pretty open minded area. So I can assure you the experience that I've had in coming out and being trans is probably very different than somebody from say Mobile, Alabama. You know, it's one of these things, this is a real societal issue. I don't know what parents can really do. I know, one thing, that dissuading your child from being their authentic selves because of fear for their safety over these kinds of things we're talking about? I don't think that's a good idea.

Penny Williams 29:25

It's also damaging. Yeah.

Wynne Nowland 29:27

Right. So I think, I think that's probably more damaging than the risk that you run of violence. But, I there's certainly some practical advice out there, which, a lot of times trans people get upset when they hear it, because they don't think they should have to do these things. And I believe that that's absolutely true. They shouldn't have to do these things. But you know, similarly to advice that you hear people that are in racially underrepresented groups, they're in Some common sense advice, don't put yourself in dangerous situations, you need to be careful about certain things, a lot of a lot of violence happens in the trans community. You know, some of it just happens, because people are just, the trans person does absolutely nothing to encourage it. Right? Hmm. But there is a good, a good percentage of the violence does sometimes occur regarding, or is an outcome of personal relationships, meaning these kids that are trans and transition early in life and get the proper hormone therapy relatively early in life, they can present as their chosen gender extremely well. And there's a term that's used in the trans community that most trans people don't like, including me, which is passing, right. And that means that they pass as female or they pass as male, depending on on, what they originally were assigned at birth. But they pass and people would have no idea that they were trans. And often, this violence comes as the result of someone discovering that they are trans. Right. So, it's just, it really is such a difficult, difficult topic, I think, for some places in the country, it's pretty much a non issue, or I shouldn't say a non issue, but much less of an issue. And in other parts of the country, it's really an issue. And it's just so difficult, because I don't necessarily think parents can do anything to affect the outcome of that, unfortunately.

Penny Williams 31:35

Yeah, other than to teach some safety skills, right? To make sure you're not alone with someone you don't really know, and stuff like that. But you know, it's a genuine fear for parents. And yet, I think you've hit the nail on the head in saying that if you deny the transgender aspect, you're still doing damage, that that's for sure going to damage your child versus the potential for, their safety to be compromised.

Wynne Nowland 32:07

Right. And I do think, it'd be interesting to look at statistics to, and that I said that, that there's a certainly a disproportionate amount of violence against trans people than non trans people. That's an absolute fact. Yeah. But I still don't know what the odds are, if you're a trans person, that you're going to have violence perpetrated against you. Right. So that's a very different kind of data point.

Penny Williams 32:30

Mm hmm.

Wynne Nowland 32:31

My guess is it's probably not that high. Right. Because of the way numbers work. I think that the odds, if you're a trans person, the odds of something of having violence against you, maybe in the general population, it's one in 1000. And maybe in the trans population, it's terrible. And it's, it's one out of 100. But the difference would be I can tell you, that if the parents suppresses or does not support that child transition, because of fear of the kind of fear we're talking about, you probably have 100% chance of damaging that child. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So it's kind of sometimes you kind of have to do that kind of value calculation proposition. You know, to make yourself feel good about the choice.

Penny Williams 33:16

Yeah, yeah. And the other risk that's a lot higher in that community is suicide as well. Correct. And I think, we've already touched on how to help with that. And that's to get a therapist involved, offer the opportunity for that sort of guidance and help to your kids who are on that journey.

Wynne Nowland 33:37

So true, the suicide rate is much higher among trans people. And that can take its form in a couple of different ways, all of which, I think you're not going to save everyone, that's unfortunately, not the nature of suicidal people. But you're certainly going to have a better chance of getting a good outcome. And with that therapy we've been spending this whole time talking about, but you know, the trans suicide falls into a number of different buckets as to you know, what really causes this, sometimes, these kids commit suicide because they have parents that are not supportive, and they think they have no way out. That's really, really tragic. Other times, trans people commit suicide, because they don't think their transition is going well. That is also a frequent cause. So they've already transition, they're in some phase of their transition. And they don't feel to one of the one of the topics you brought up several times, they don't feel that they're fitting in as their new gender. So you know, these are both things that if you're an active therapy can be worked on and hopefully, in many cases, avoid that really, really tragic result.

Penny Williams 34:47

Yeah. I know that we have covered a ton of ground here on this conversation, and I really hope that parents listening are very open minded and that you feel like There are people out there who understand what you might be going through if your child is on this journey, even if they're just exploring where they fit. It is complicated, it is difficult. And it takes support. And I think that's the bottom line. It takes professional support, but also community and family support, I will link into the show notes, some organizations that support transgender youth, and also some organizations like the National Suicide Hotline, and make sure that those resources are there in the show notes for this episode. For families who need that as well, I want to be sure that we're offering that. So I can't thank you enough, when for being so open. And so human and sharing your story. And I know that it's helping a great number of people. And I hope you continue to feel comfortable doing that, and a little at a time sort of changing the world, right, we're all just out here doing what we can to affect change.

Wynne Nowland 36:04

So true. I mean, I would just like to finish by just one thing I would like to say directly to parents. And that is when this kind of thing first comes up, as we've discussed, it can be surprising, it can be jarring, it's not what you expected. And I think a lot of times, just because as humans, we're sometimes conditioned to this, you kind of go to the dark place first. You know, and I think a lot of reasons parents have fear is that they're afraid that their child is not going to have a good outcome. And one of the things that I like to say and the reason that I've been so public is that you can have a good outcome. People like me exist, we've had very good outcomes. We're very productive members of society. I'm the CEO of a major company. And I've been very effective in that role since my transition. So there's kind of light at the end of the tunnel and people can get really, really good results. It's just a matter of helping them get there.

Penny Williams 37:07

Yes support, support and unconditional love and will take us so far. For everyone listening you can get the show notes for this episode at parentingADHDandautism.com/159 for episode 159. And like I said, we'll link up some resources there and also you will find a link to Wynn's website and Instagram, and I encourage you to connect to follow and follow her journey and learn from her and how we can be accepting and we can be really supportive of people being their authentic selves. Thank you again when for sharing some of your time and experience. With that we'll end the episode. Thanks for joining me on the parenting ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses, parent coaching and Mama retreats at parentingADHDandautism.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai