Deborah Farmer Kris [00:00:03]: When you are focused, that drains your attention battery. We only have so much of it, and some of us have varying degrees of it. But being in nature, our brain is still active. Right? So think of, like, your phone is still on while it's charging. Like, it's still active, but it's effortless versus effortful. Right? The birdsong, the wind in your face, it's stimulating, but it's helping restore your attention capacities.

Penny Williams [00:00:30]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:53]: Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am really thrilled to have Deborah Farmer Chris back with me, who I always love to chat with. We have the most amazing conversations about compassion, empathy, and the way kids should feel and how we help them feel these amazing ways. And I just I always look forward to our conversations. And today, we're gonna talk about awe and wonder because you have a new book coming out called Raising Awe Seekers. Right? And so I'm really excited to talk about this because I feel like I have so much awe and wonder, and I feel like my kids have none. And I feel like sometimes I failed them in that way, and so I'm really excited to talk about how we can help to foster these senses on our kids.

Penny Williams [00:01:41]: Will you start, Deborah, before we jump in and let everybody know who you are and what you do?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:01:46]: Sure. So I'm Deborah Farmer Chris, and I'm a child development expert. So I spent twenty years in the classroom. I've written many picture books and board books. I work for PBS Kids. As I talked with Penny about in an earlier episode, I'm an adviser for Carl the Collector on PBS Kids, which is so near and dear to my heart. And this is my first parenting book coming out, but I've I've been a parenting journalist for a decade, and I feel like everything kind of coalesced around this topic of awe and wonder. And, I've spent four years writing it, and I'm still excited about it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:02:18]: So that's how you know you found something you care about. Right?

Penny Williams [00:02:21]: Absolutely. Yeah. And we were chatting before we started recording about the fact that we have a lot of awe and wonder about natural beauty, maybe. We're both tree lovers. I think trees are all these artistic sculptures, and I I just feel amazing when I look at trees. I have photographs of all different trees in my house. Like, it's a thing. My family makes fun of me.

Penny Williams [00:02:44]: It's a thing. But I have this sense, like, when I see things still that they're beautiful and they are somewhat magical almost, that they exist, and that we get to enjoy them. What is the science behind maybe awe and wonder? Where do we start so we can sort of unpack? Like, where does this come from?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:03:08]: Well, first of all, like, that is such a gift that you feel that. Because not only is it a wonderful feeling, it turns out that awe and wonder are related to so many benefits for ourselves and our kids. And I kinda stumbled upon this research. And I've stumbled upon it during the pandemic, and the story, and it's a very real story, goes that I had been asked by a school to come give a parenting presentation on resilience and stress. And this was fall of twenty twenty one. And like something inside me broke. I was like, I'm resilience stout. I have resilience to myself for eighteen months, right, during this pandemic and my kids at home.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:03:49]: And I was like, I really just wanna talk about something more hopeful. And I wanted to pitch something, but I wasn't sure what. And I somehow stumbled down the rabbit hole of awe research, and I I came up across this white paper. And it has 20 of, like, real research by psychologists at top universities behind it. And what they found is that the simplest way to define it, right, is you know you're feeling it. It might be the goosebumps, the tears spring into your eyes. When you just look at something and say, wow. Right? Where the whole crowd goes, wow, because we all feel that.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:04:25]: And for kids, for me, it's often like when their eyes grow wide, that's a sign to me that they're feeling that sense of of wonder. And, you know, it turns out it correlates with mental wellness, with even decreases in inflammation and stress levels in the blood and in saliva. It correlates with academics because when you're curious about something, when there's, like, this wow moment, it primes the brain to learn. And so all of these outcomes you want for kids, there's some incredible stories about how, you know, awe makes steady participants more generous, more willing to share with strangers. It helps us feel connected, more connected to the community. So if you think about almost every good thing you want for your kids, like Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:05:11]: Awe

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:05:11]: can be one of those things that helps support that. And the other piece is, like, it's not something you have to feel all the time. But when you do feel it, right, like, this is why I call it raising awe seekers. It's almost like I just want to kind of put myself and my kids in the path where I could. You know? Like, if I'm gonna take that walk outside, I might. You know? Right. So my book is structured around these seven sources of awe. Researchers have found that there are basically seven major umbrellas where people report that they feel this.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:05:45]: And we know we can talk more about that later. And so I take each one of those, and we look at it from kind of a child development perspective and for all kinds of kids. And so, you know, this is, I'm I'm really I have a lot of kid voices and teen voices in this, and kids who find fascination in really different things, different things than I might find fascination in. This is actually a in the book, it was a high schooler who just waxes on about how the Franklin expedition, which she was completely taken with for like three years, like hyper focused, what that taught her about, like humanity. And, like, it was just it's just so cool and beautiful because I know nothing about the Franklin expedition. But, like, her awe and wonder was inspiring.

Penny Williams [00:06:32]: It's contagious. Yeah. Yeah. That feeling. You may not have the same awe about the same thing, but witnessing someone else's awe is contagious. It makes us feel good. Yeah. I love to watch America's Got Talent for that exact reason.

Penny Williams [00:06:49]: Be I just got goosebumps just saying it. Because when people have their moment Mhmm. It makes me so happy to see it. And so that's what I I'd I'd never watch, like, the last few where they pick a winner because their awe is gone. Like, they're like, okay. I'm in it. People like me. Right? And it's a different experience.

Penny Williams [00:07:08]: I like watching when they first come out. They doubt themselves, and then they get that win. Right? And you can just see them light up and have their moment. It makes me so happy. But I was thinking as you were talking, like, sometimes I think as a parent, we think that there are certain things that create awe. Yeah. And that our kids should have wonder and excitement about those same certain things. And that's not necessarily the case.

Penny Williams [00:07:38]: Right? How do we help our kids figure out what brings on this this emotion and this joy for them?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:07:44]: You know, I think that's one of the great experiments. And one of the kinda guiding principles I have throughout the book is this concept of radical curiosity. And I think especially when you have, you know, kids who are beautifully complex, being kind of radically curious about what makes them tick, what brings them joy, what sparks their delight is part of this journey that we're on. And so, you know, I remember being a mentor to a high schooler. And just high school was a tough time, was not finding her people and, you know, just all of those traditional struggles that many of our listeners will know well. Yeah. And I kept saying, you know, keep tapping into what you love. And when you get to college, you're gonna find.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:08:26]: Like, it's you're you're gonna go there and you're still staying true to kinda tapping into your, you know, your own passions. And she got to college, and she emailed me two months into the year and said, I did it. Like, I found friends, and I found them in a bird watching club. Oh, wow. Yeah. There was no bird watching club in high school. That wasn't part of the American high school experience. Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:08:48]: But that was something, you know, that it was like almost just trusting and finding that. So one thing I find helpful in the research is when I sell these categories of, ah, this that was just a really helpful framework for me as a person and as a parent. So I'll just share them with your listeners. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:09:05]: Yeah. So I'm very curious.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:09:06]: I think the most obvious is nature. Mhmm. And especially in springtime, it's actually this is the time of year I feel like I can actually get my kids tapped into it because my son, who seems to sometimes pay zero attention to the outdoors, he was completely captivated by the cherry blossoms that had like bloom because Yeah. You know, winter's long in New England, and he was like, we need to plant cherry tree. I was like, okay. We can put that on our list in the next couple of years to plant this tree. So nature, right, like, you know, the beautiful sunset. And I'm a person who will pull my kids.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:09:37]: I'm the one who will say, come out and see the sunset, and I'll make them. And they'll look for twelve seconds, and they'll go back inside. Right. But it's like, I feel like they're going to remember their mom as the person who said, come see the sunset just the way I start my book by telling a story of my father pulling me awake out of bed at 2AM to go see the meteor shower. Right? And, you know, my dad who had struggled in many ways to connect to you know, my dad was on spectrum, and he was fascinated, though, by everything science. And so every time there's a meteor shower, my mind goes to my dad, and that is a beautiful core memory. Did I express that at that age? Did I grumble? Probably. Right?

Penny Williams [00:10:17]: Like Yeah. Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:10:18]: You know? So nature provides that. Then there's art. Right? And that can be traditional art. That can be a really cool big mural. It can also be architecture. Like like like walking into a rotunda or a cathedral or seeing a skyline that you've never seen before. You know, being fascinated by how a train is made or a submarine and all of those pieces go into it. Music, making music.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:10:44]: Mhmm. And I I feel like my music chapter has more kids and parents who are neurodivergent than any other because it seems to be such a language Yep. For speaking and connecting. And so one of my favorite stories there is from a friend whose son wandered into the wrong classroom when he was in second grade, and there was a mandolin, and he began to pluck it. And when the teacher walked in, rather than reprimanding him, noticed that he seemed to have an incredible ear

Penny Williams [00:11:14]: for it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:11:14]: He was tuning it, and he seemed to have perfect pitch. And that has sent him down. I mean, it is not saying high middle and high school were rough and hard for so many reasons. But, like, he plays in a professional jazz band mandolin player in high in college now. And that Amazing. Teacher. Right? Like, seeing that, like, created that.

Penny Williams [00:11:33]: Mhmm.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:11:34]: The next one's big ideas, and that is just being fascinated by anything. Right? The big questions that we have. And that, you know, most great discoveries and ideas and inventions come because somebody had a big question. And I think so many of our kids have really amazing questions about the world and kinda tapping into those and using those. We can talk more about this later. But, like, using those as a springboard for other learning, like, tapping into where the the hyper interest might be as a way to kind of, you know, find a springboard into other things. The next one is that feeling of belonging or collective effervescence. That means, like, you're part of a group that's doing something together that's good.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:12:15]: And that might be as simple as, like, being at a sports game that you're rooting along and you're all cheering. It could be being part of a choir. It could be being part of a D and D club, right, where you're all on a campaign together. Then there's its experiences with life and death. And so the awe when you see a brand new puppy. Right? Like, if Mhmm. If you give a 16 year old a kitten, their face is going to turn into a childlike face, but then also experiences with the other side of the of the spectrum and those questions and moments, say, kinda sacred moments with loss and death. And then the final one, which gets me so excited, is that it turns out that the most common source of awe for humans, they report feeling it when they witness or hear about other people being kind and brave.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:13:05]: Mhmm. And I find that super hopeful with, like,

Penny Williams [00:13:08]: the

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:13:08]: speed of our world right now is that we are super inspired by good stories. Like, you know, you hear a story of somebody doing something brave or kind, you get those goosebumps. And so one of the ways that this book has changed my parenting is that I am on the lookout for a story to tell my kids organically. So I'm on the lookout for a new story or a something happened in the neighborhood, and maybe I share it on the way home. Maybe I text it to them and be like, oh my gosh. This story. Right? And just so that I am feeding some of those counteractive, you know, measures that say, this is a beautiful world full of beautiful people. Yes.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:13:52]: It's messy. Yes. There's pain. There are people doing terrible things. But also everywhere you look, there's beauty. So Mhmm. That scaffolding helps me because you may have a kid who's so not into art. And, like, nature, they feel allergic to it, but they may be super into music.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:14:11]: And that can be a source of awe for them.

Penny Williams [00:14:13]: Yeah. As you just listed those categories and talked about them, I sort of had this highlight reel of visuals going through my mind

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:14:21]: I wanna hear.

Penny Williams [00:14:22]: All the things that I have had awe, like architecture. It's one of the reasons I love New York City. And, you know, there's a place in Central Park where you go under this bridge. And I discovered it by mistake on a trip there one time, and it is magical. Mhmm. The whole thing is painted, and there's all these curves. And it's so, like, art deco and just magical. And it felt even more so because it's like this little hidden gem, right, where if you don't know it's there, you don't know it's there.

Penny Williams [00:14:57]: You may not stumble on it. And then, like, music and the connection with neurodivergence, my husband and my son both are gifted in music, and both are neurodivergent. And, you know, music is a huge part of really getting through the day to day, honestly, for them. Yeah. And so every category, like, I was thinking of these things. And and I share those stories all the time with my kids too, and they're in their twenties now. And they're like, yeah, whatever. You know? They don't wanna hear anything I have to say usually, but I'm still trying to share my awe and wonder with them and help them to find theirs.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:15:37]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:15:38]: One thought that I had too as you were talking is we need to notice when they are experiencing %. These feelings. Right? We need to notice it. We need to call attention to it because I would imagine that that helps to foster more of those kind of experiences. Would you agree with that?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:15:58]: I would. You know? And one reason I like being able to name it as a feeling is because I feel like if you can't name something, it's hard to seek it. Right? And so, you know, if you think about, like, kind of feeling peaceful or mindful, you start paying attention to kind of what that feels like in your body. But if you're thinking, like, you know, that goosebump moment, like, I remember I've had that moment. And then you're like, oh, okay, so that's awe. And then you can start paying attention to what brings that for you. And I think as, you know, as kids are older, that's a great conversation. When they're younger, it's also just, it helps, you know, for me, like where to steer a little bit, especially when they're going through all those phases where everything's stupid or maybe they loved something and now they just don't.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:16:43]: Right? Because you have a sixth grader. And, you know, like, when Miles is in sixth grade, every interest was like, I'm quitting Girl Scouts. I'm quitting piano. I'm quitting the I'm quitting horseback riding. And and there was nothing left. Right? And so it was kind of, you know, I'm just like, okay. So what seems to spark you know, art seemed to spark a little bit. So it was like, maybe we kinda dabble in, like, one art class.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:17:07]: Right? Like, just experiment Yeah. And run one one mile together, race, right, just to see if running could be something that could be interesting. And and just to start paying attention to what sparked and, you know, nurture that knowing it can shift again. And that that's okay. Right? I think sometimes as parents, we get kinda locked into, like, you know, but we've put so much time and money into soccer, and now they don't wanna play. And, and that's okay. I mean, at some point, right? Like, it's not that you want them to give up everything. Sometimes you're like, I've paid for the semester, you're taking the piano lessons.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:17:42]: But sometimes you gotta pay attention to, like, are you doing most of the pushing? Right? At some point, it's the intrinsic motivation that is so much of awe is, like, I want to do this. Because that helps you do it even when it's hard. Right? Like Mhmm. One of my kids did piano dutifully, but never loved it. And then finally, you know, it was like, okay. That's not your thing. And joined a theater troupe and was like, oh, I love this. And then, you know, my other kid, like, discovered a great teacher.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:18:09]: We tried a great teacher for piano. The first one was wasn't a great fit, and this one kinda gets his very expansive, creative, beautifully complex mind and teaches him to it. And he loves it. And so he'll practice for hours without me asking. And so he was willing to do the hard thing, the practice, because it sparks that. And so I'm like, alright. I'm gonna nurture that. And, you know, it's and and that's the dance of parenthood, but having the lens for me of kind of knowing that awe and wonder is that little thing that makes life a little more fun and fulfilling has been helpful in this kind of, you know, being parent of adolescence phase

Penny Williams [00:18:57]: that I'm in right now. I think really nurturing that curiosity for all of us. Like, what is it that sparks joy for you? Yeah. Is it piano, or is it not? Like Yeah. There's this push and pull for us as parents. We know that there are things that are beneficial. We want our kids to have experiences. We want them to maybe learn that you have to really practice at something in order to succeed at it, whatever it might be, the lesson within it.

Penny Williams [00:19:27]: Yeah. And then on the other hand, it's like, well, we really want them to be happy and have joy. And what if piano is not doing that? Right?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:19:36]: Well, it was actually that your her teacher who said this amazing teacher down for both of them, who said to her, you know, I know you're practicing, but I've yet to see you love this. Do you is this how you wanna spend your time? And she was like, not really. And so her teacher talked to me because I was like, nonnegotiable till eighth grade. Right? That was one of my, like because that's what I did. Right? My mom was like, you can quit when you hit eighth grade. And I was like, okay. Well, you know, maybe you know, I know she will practice. Like, she's responsible, but maybe there's something else that's in the arts that, you know, might be more fulfilling.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:20:10]: And it's not that one path isn't the only path. And I think that's, you know, so important for kids. I I had this great conversation with a woman named Natalie, Bunner, and she's a family therapist in Louisiana. And we were talking about belonging and, you know, and that kind of struggle sometimes to find your people. And she said one of the things she works with a lot with parents on that issue is when they kind of have a narrow view of where their child should find belonging. Like, you know, they need to be part of the sports club. They're gonna find it through sports.

Penny Williams [00:20:41]: Right?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:20:42]: Or they're gonna find it through blank. And she said, we have to just really widen our possibilities for where they might find that. Right? And so, you know, maybe it's through a robotics club. Maybe it's through but being able to identify an interest can help you identify a group where you might find more feelings of belonging. I thought that was a wise piece of advice.

Penny Williams [00:21:05]: Yeah. Absolutely. You you said a couple of things that sparked for me. One is the robotics club. That's where my own kid in seventh grade finally found his tribe. Mhmm. But, also, I keep coming back to this idea too of pressure and how difficult that is for our kids and how much it sort of turns them off to things. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:21:28]: So you know? And maybe this is more about those teachers, those piano teachers. You know? Was one, like, super rigid and you must do this, and there's a lot of pressure. And then another might be more free with it. And, you know, do it in your own way, right, instead of my way. I'm just the piano is just an example. But, like, when robotics got super pressurized because they did competitions, wasn't as into it anymore. Right? I'm watching this with so many kids.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:22:02]: You know, my my kids are in kind of the middle school, one's under high school, where their friend they haven't been involved as much with kind of the the kind of the sports and dance and gymnastics. But all their friends are facing this challenge right now of, if I'm gonna stick with gymnastics, you're on the competitive team. But some of them don't wanna be competitive. They just like doing it. And I'm I'm I think about how do we create these spaces for kids where it's not about specializing? Like, what's the space for the kid who's just like, I wanna go and just do the bars and and the routine, but I don't want to be every weekend at a competition somewhere. You know? And I think of that kind of pressure you put on, like, travel teams for kids on sports. Yes. And I think that's on parents, and that's on teachers to say, how do we make space? There are some kids who thrive with that competition, but not everybody.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:22:51]: You know, for the ones that just want to enjoy making a robot and have fun doing that.

Penny Williams [00:22:58]: Yeah. Yeah. My daughter was way into softball. She started at, I don't know, age eight probably, seven maybe. Loved it. Loved it. Loved it. As soon as she got to middle school and she got on the middle school team, she did not love it anymore.

Penny Williams [00:23:16]: Because it was competitive. At that point, you performed Mhmm. Or you got yelled at or you had to run laps or you know? And it just wasn't. And and now as a young adult, she keeps looking for a place to play because she still craves playing, but for fun, not for winning or, you know, this high pressure competition. I think that happens so so often to our kids in one way or another. Yeah. We put so much emphasis on performance Yeah. Instead of just, like, joy and wonder and experience and journey.

Penny Williams [00:23:54]: Right? Like, if you're really into something, provide the opportunity for your kid in that area if they're into it, and then watch the journey. Let it unfold. Doesn't need to lead to

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:24:05]: a medal or a title or a scholarship. Right. Yeah. You know, when you hear that from kids of, like, you see that, you know, the research shows that hobbies really drop off in middle school. Mhmm. I've I've been laughing at, you know, there seems to be a lot of kind of news stories recently about, kind of millennial women picking up grandma hobbies. Yes. I'm laughing because I picked up embroidery in the last year, and I love it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:24:30]: I'm like obsessed with it. It's my art form. I never found a way to connect, you know. Like, I have professional artists in my family, and I just never did. And now it's like, there's something about the embroidery, right, that, like, just it it just scratches an itch in my brain of, like, doing something repetitive, but I'm making something beautiful. But there's I'm not entering this anywhere. I'm not Right.

Penny Williams [00:24:52]: Trying to doing it for you.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:24:53]: I'm not putting this on any resume. This is not going on LinkedIn. And, you know, I think often our 14 and 15 year olds are like, anything I do has to be, like, something I can put on, you know, a college application. Or if they're not thinking that way because they're they're thinking about a different route, they have friends thinking that way. And so it kinda creates this environment where it's, you know, this this can be so competitive. And I feel like one of the freedoms of, you know, kind kind of the stage of life for me, you know, is being like, what do I love? And I think that me tapping into that is good for my kids. Right? Like Yeah. I tell everybody this, I'm so proud of it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:25:34]: I picked up boxing a year ago. Not other people, just a bag. I go to boxing classes. I never thought I'd do anything like boxing. Like, if you told me ten years ago. I love it. I have never been stronger physically. It's fun.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:25:49]: It's, you know, you're learning patterns. And so that's kind of a fun, like, brain thing for me. You know, it's a woman instructor, so it feels really empowering. My kids make fun of me all the time because I have boxing gloves in the car. And I love that they do, because they know that their mom is doing something new. Right? And they're gonna remember that. They're gonna remember that their mom was like, I'm doing something just for me, and I'm putting on my boxing gloves as a middle aged lady, and I'm pounding a bag. And so, you know, this is where me, like, you you always have to have a sense of humor with with adolescents and being like, okay.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:26:23]: Yeah. But, you know, like, just watch out. I'm gonna be able to beat you at arm wrestling soon.

Penny Williams [00:26:28]: Right. Right. Yeah. That it's modeling. It's modeling for our kids, doing something for yourself, taking care of yourself, finding joy in things that aren't competitive, right, that you're just doing for you. These grandma hobbies are regulating. There's a rhythm, and that is regulated. It regulates our nervous system.

Penny Williams [00:26:49]: I did see an article in the last couple of weeks talking about sort of the science behind it and why it's catching on and people are enjoying it. And it's all about the nervous system, and it's amazing. It's amazing that we continue to learn more about our nervous system and tap into it because, really, it's sort of the guiding it's guiding the ship. Right?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:27:10]: Yeah. I I saw a screen thread that somebody had put out. It was basically, you know, with people saying, oh, where was the autism, you know, all these years ago? And they're like, so have you seen all of, like, the amazing quilts that were made in the eighteen hundreds? Who do you think was making this quilts? Like, perfectly precise and cut and stitched. I mean, come on now.

Penny Williams [00:27:27]: Right. Right.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:27:29]: We just found outlets for it.

Penny Williams [00:27:31]: Yeah. But I think too the sense of awe regulates our nervous system. Right? And you talked early on about there being connection within this, which I had never thought about.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:27:44]: Yeah. So a couple of fun studies here. There's a a man named Craig Anderson, and, he's a professor of psychology. I mean, he was doing his grad work at UC Berkeley, and a lot of this research comes out of of UC Berkeley. He took people on whitewater rafting trips, and he took two groups in particular. He took young combat veterans and he took local high schoolers who had ex, you know, witnessed community violence. Right? So they had been kind of high pressure. So turns out the high schoolers actually had higher degrees of PTSD symptoms than the combat veterans, which is its own story.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:14]: But, you know, what they did was their saliva samples before and after these trips, and then these questionnaires then for the next six weeks. And the levels of stress hormone in the blood dropped after this time in nature. And then six weeks later, they self reported lower levels of PTSD symptoms. And part of that with sensory regulation is that these things with all are very they involve the senses. Right? They involve seeing something, hearing it, but not sensory overload.

Penny Williams [00:28:50]: Right.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:50]: And so, you know, there's this interesting research about how time in nature can help restore our attention and our executive function skills. It's called attention restoration theory. I talked about that too in the book. It's some cool research. But the idea is, like, when you are focused, it drains your attention battery. We only have so much of it, and some of us have varying degrees of it. But being in nature, our brain is still active. Right? So think of, like, your phone is still on while it's charging.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:29:18]: Like, it's still active, but it's effortless versus effortful. Right? The birdsong, the wind in your face, the smell of the fresh cut grass. It's stimulating, but it's helping restore your attention capacities.

Penny Williams [00:29:34]: Love that.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:29:34]: So, you know, they found that going outside and just kind of being, right, not on your phone, just being outside, even for five minutes can help you focus when you then return to whatever the work is. So these things that are sensory and, you know, and for me, I like the going outside because I'm not great at meditation. Like, you know, I'm too fidgety for that. And so for me, walking is kind of my regulation meditation. It's seeing, taking my deep breaths while I'm active, while I'm moving. You know, I find embroidery is very similar. Like the repetition of it allows my brain just to kind of, you know, zone. And, you know, when you find something that brings awe and wonder, and that has a bit of that, again, that can just help with regulating, you know, that kind of sense of peace.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:30:24]: They even found, like, they did these studies with preschoolers, and that they took a swab of saliva before and after arts classes. Art and music. And their stress levels of these kids, you know, were lower after arts classes. So you think about, like, arts funding in schools. Right? Like, these are sometimes the things that can help kids find their passion, but also just improve their wellness.

Penny Williams [00:30:51]: Mhmm. Deal with all that pressure. Yeah. Right? We need those those moments of downtime in education for that rejuvenation.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:31:00]: And just beauty. Right? Like, if you're just if you had chance to draw or play a song or listen to music, you're just tapping into your senses and tapping into the beauty. So Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:31:11]: There's a reason there's art therapy and music therapy. Hundred percent. Equine therapy. Yeah. There's a reason for sure.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:31:19]: So Now all those there ultimate therapies, like, they're all attached to wonder and awe. Aren't they? Right? Mhmm. Like, you know, one of my former students I interviewed for the book, and she's, just got her degree in music therapy. And she talks about doing a drum circle at a, soup kitchen. And just in that kind of sense of almost collective effervinzas, everybody was there. They were drumming together, and it just kind of created these goosebumps for everybody. Yes. Right? And so, you know, it's like, these are these such connected moments, right, that they just connect us to other people.

Penny Williams [00:31:52]: Mhmm. We actually here I live in Asheville, North Carolina. We have a weekly drum circle downtown in this little tiny triangle park. Sweet. And it's been going on for more than twenty years that I've been here. It's probably been going on for several decades. And, yeah, just seeing it. Like, even if I just see a photograph of it, I get that awe of, like, this collective.

Penny Williams [00:32:18]: But I also have a thing with heavy drum beats. It really soothes me. Like, if I get super stressed out, I play Radiohead's song that they played at the Grammys with the marching band. Alright. And, like, it's so much drum and rhythm, and it really just knocks out that dysregulation. It just soothes me. I listened to it so much after the hurricane came through here, and we were so stressed. I just, like, started my day.

Penny Williams [00:32:47]: I would play that video a couple times before I did anything else because I just needed, like, that settle with the rhythm of draw yeah. So a drum circle provides so many different aspects Yeah. Of Gooseys. Like, just thinking about it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:33:01]: And I love that you said that, like, you that you've listened to it kinda multiple times because I think this is somewhere else where we could help our kids. Right? As if we've noticed something that is helping them regulate and find that kind of, you know, big eye eye, you know, wonder. Like, it's okay to do that over and over. Right? If they have a song or a piece of art or an activity or a smell. Right? Like Mhmm. You know, I think one of the things you learn by being a parent is, like, sometimes repetition is just what you need. And so, you know, helping find the thing, that's part of their toolbox. Right? Like, I know that this helps.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:33:40]: And that, you know, there's your standard toolbox of, like, your breathing. Right? They we talked about, like, strategy toolbox. But I think all of us and our kids would need our own, like, my Deborah toolbox. And my Deborah toolbox may include my boxing gloves. It may include my embroidery. It may include, you know, a certain song that I know will give me goosebumps every single time I listen to it. Right?

Penny Williams [00:34:04]: Yep.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:34:05]: And, like, these things that I know are going to fill me up and give me that spark that I know is good for me. And so, you know, rather than just, like, sticking with your traditional toolbox, like, expand it to, you know, that box of things that makes your kid your kid.

Penny Williams [00:34:24]: I love it. It all starts with noticing, noticing what sparks them. So what would be the first next step for parents listening? They've listened to this conversation. What can they do next to try to foster and provide opportunities for awe and wonder for their kids?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:34:42]: So for me, studying and researching awe was the metaphor I use is, like, getting a a clear prescription for glasses. It's not that it's any radical change in my life. It's not that, you know, I have a script I need to use, or I need to go to this class. It's more I think the first step for me was beginning to ask my own questions and tune myself in to what brings me awe and wonder and to communicate that more intentionally, to, you know, look for moments where it may be a Saturday with not much going on, where I know that sometimes novel experiences bring wonder, like, seeing something you haven't seen before. So last weekend, there was a tulip festival about twenty minutes away. I'd never been. My kids were not super excited about going, but I was like, you know what? We'll go get a pliable afterwards so that convinced them. You know? And we went, and we had to wander through these gardens to get to it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:35:48]: And my son was like, this is so cool. And there was a pond, and we saw some tadpoles. And it was only, like, a forty five minute thing, and they picked their own tulips when we went back. But it absolutely like, at the end of it, they were like, we could do this next year. Right? It's like, okay. When? And so sometimes it's like experimenting and trying something local, cheap, new, you know. Sometimes, again, it's like this kind of wandering into places, or things you haven't done before. Like, Let's try this.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:36:15]: Let's go do something new. She wanted to go thrifting, and I was like, Okay, you find the spot. And we stumbled upon this incredible old mill, like thirty minutes from our house, that had been turned into this secondhand treasure. And we literally had our mouths open for two hours, going through this place, going like, We didn't know this existed. And I think that, you know, these small things of just paying attention to what brings the goosebumps. And then when you start paying attention, you start wanting more of them. Like, that's becoming an awe seeker. And you do it yourself, and then you tune in with your kids.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:36:59]: And so this is not a prescriptive parenting book at all. There's no, like, use this language. Yeah. It's really about here's a framework, for an idea you may not an emotion you may not have thought a lot about, and it's got some beautiful stories and a lot of good research. And, you know, I feel like it just might spark something for somebody to say, oh, yeah. I used to love getting the telescope out. I have never done that with my kids. Maybe I'm gonna go pull out the telescope.

Penny Williams [00:37:30]: Mhmm. So much goodness. I think we could talk and swap all experiences Oh my gosh. All day. It feels so good to do that. Like, my nervous system is feeling super chill right now. It's so fun to think about all these things. Let everybody know where they can find you online.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:37:49]: Yes. So if you go to parenthood365.com, so parenthood36five, that's also my subs stack and my Instagram. So if parenthood three six five will take you to all my channels, and the book Raising Awe Seekers, comes out May 27 and is available everywhere.

Penny Williams [00:38:05]: So Awesome. I can't wait to read it. I'm so excited. I'm happy for you, for this book Thank you. And, all the work that you do is just amazing, and I'm so appreciative.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:38:15]: Oh, I'm appreciative of you. I mean, I I love I love your podcast. I love your work. I love talking to you.

Penny Williams [00:38:19]: Mhmm. Ta da. Awesome. So I am going to link up your website and all that good stuff in the show notes for this episode. You can find those at parentingadhd and autism.com/313 for episode 313, and I will see everybody next time. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:38:42]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHD and autism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.