Amy Lang, MA [00:00:03]: You might have a 13 year old who's functioning more like a 10 or 11 year old, and those 13 year olds are talking about stuff, and your kid's gonna try to go along to get along. And if they don't have you as a resource to come back to and say, they said this really weird thing. I don't know what it is, because they need to know. And it does not hurt any child to have a lot of very specific and sometimes explicit information from their trustworthy adult or parent.

Penny Williams [00:00:31]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:54]: Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, everyone. I am so honored to have Amy Lang here with me today to talk about something that is awkward, is tough, that we don't necessarily wanna talk about, but we need to, which is talking to our neurodivergent kids about sexuality, having the birds and bees talk with them, talking about navigating gender differences, and talking about porn. We're just gonna dive into all of the things that are tough, but that we need to be having conversations with our kids about. So, Amy, will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Amy Lang, MA [00:01:34]: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me on and trusting me with your people, with this really complicated, important, confusing, amazing part of life and, you know, parenting too. So, let's see. So my story briefly is that I was a sexual health educator for over 16 years. I was doing all the usual sex ed stuff, and loved it, was my passion, and I thought that when I had a kid, I was going to be spectacular at talking with him. And I thought he was gonna tell me, it felt good to touch his penis, and he was about 5, and I freaked out internally. And I was just like, what is happening to you? Like, you know all about penises, why are you being so weird? So I realized I needed to get it together, and so I did some research for our family and figured out, you know, how like, the questions are, like, every question every parent has, like, when do you start, what do the conversations look like, what's age appropriate, all that stuff. So I dove into that realm, figured out how to do it for our family with our young kid, and then the other part of my background is that I have my master's and my focus was in adult education.

Amy Lang, MA [00:02:41]: So as I was figuring this out for us, I realized I could help other parents, and so I started my company, which is Birds and Bees and Kids, and I've been working with parents of neurotypical and neurodiverse neurodivergent kids for, like, way long time now, like 19 years. And initially, I was just very I was focused on neurotypical kids, and I had, you know, parents I knew they had autistic, ADHDers, you know, that would come up. But in the last, like, 2 or 3 years when I did individual consultations, they're called quickies because I'm funny, I would be talking with a parent, and then they would just drop in autistic, neurodivergent, they would say, ADHD, and then I thought, what's going on here? So I started asking at the top, any neurodivergents in your family? And then it was about, like, I would say a 3rd or more families had neurodivergent kids, and so I was, like, well, y'all need help. So I go out, you know, I go poking around, and if you've already tried to find specific support for talking with neurodivergent kids between the ages of, like, 5 and, you know, middle school ish, there's nothing. There's puberty stuff, there's, like, one book, kind of, and so I thought, well, you all need help, and so I got a certification in neurodiversity and sexuality, and I have been learning, learning, learning all about neurodivergence and all about the best ways to talk with neurodivergent kids about sexuality, the issues that are very specific to neurodivergent kids, and, and so I've just been working with parents of neurodivergent children, and I, you know, I think I said before we started up, I'm like, this was bad and sad, because your kids are sexual beings, whether you want them to be or not. Right? That's why every parent doesn't want their kid to be a sexual being, but they need this information more so than neurotypical kids in a lot of ways.

Penny Williams [00:04:28]: Yeah. I can't wait to learn from you. Where do we start? Where's the beginning for a parent?

Amy Lang, MA [00:04:36]: So the beginning is really, really with basics. And one of the things that oh, and I should just side note, I'm not neurodivergent, my child's not neurodivergent, but my husband is dyslexic, and I have permission to tell you that. And when you're dyslexic in 1968, 9, nobody knows what to do with you. And so I did not know that was a neurodivergence, and it has explained so much for me, and actually for him, because he didn't know that either. So I just wanna be really clear that this is not part of my life, other than my grown person.

Penny Williams [00:05:06]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:05:06]: So the beginning is where you start, which is correct names for private body parts. Like, everybody needs to know the correct names for their private body parts, and one of the things that I've learned about lots of neurodivergent folks, which is really true for everyone, you don't need to monkey around. You can just say, that's penis, that's a vulva, you have a vagina, they have testicles, and just use those clear words, which should be the case for everybody. But that's the really, the very, very basic place to start, and you know, getting into the point, like then talking about reproduction happens a little bit later, but the reason we need to use correct names for private body parts is because it's a safety issue. And for kids like yours, who are more vulnerable to be taking advantage of because of social cue issues and going along to getting get along and masking and that kind of thing, they really need to be able to say, that person touched my penis. You know, maybe, unfortunately, if you've got a blurter, they're gonna be, like, hey, you've got a vulva, right, in the grocery store.

Penny Williams [00:06:08]: Yes.

Amy Lang, MA [00:06:08]: Right? So Yes. Which is one of those things where, you know, that can happen with any kid, but just being mindful that when they say, you know, that I have a penis, they use those words, especially when they're young, it triggers folks who are gonna prey on children. It's, like, if your kid knows the correct names of the private body parts, they're less likely to be preyed upon. Mhmm. It's just true, true, true. So that's, like, the very beginning thing.

Penny Williams [00:06:31]: Yeah. Yeah. And then how is it different because our kids are neurodivergent? Like, what do we need to be maybe more mindful of?

Amy Lang, MA [00:06:39]: Yeah. That's a great question. So a couple of things. So first of all, if we're, like, looking at, like, the private parts names is really about boundaries, consent, right, physical safety, that kind of thing. So for your kiddos, just being really clear that it's just you have to be more clear and more succinct from what I understand, like, it's not okay to touch someone's penis, vulva, vagina, private parts. You can use the euphemism, but it can be confusing, but there isn't a better euphemism. You could say genitals, which I can't say genitals, because I hate that word, but you can say genitals. And so being very clear about that, talking about it pretty consistently, making it clear that it's not okay for them to touch somebody else's, and there are safe places to get that information if they're curious, or pointing them towards books, that kind of thing.

Amy Lang, MA [00:07:31]: But the most important thing is starting this dialogue and this conversation about, hey, these are all the parts of your body. Some of the parts we can share, like shaking hands and giving hugs, and some of the parts, we're they're only for us, or parent, doctor, if there's a problem. And really on repeat with this sometimes. Mhmm. So, you know, again, this isn't this is a safety issue for every child, but because your child might misread, you know, like another kid might say, hey, let's look at each other's privates, look at each other's penises, and your kid might be less likely to be, like, oh, that's not okay or safe. Right? But if you've at least made a real clear effort that it's not okay or safe to play games like this, they're gonna be more likely to, at the very least, tell you if they played a game like that with someone. And I do wish I could just say, this is magic. Yay.

Amy Lang, MA [00:08:21]: Your child is safe. But it's just it's building blocks, really, if you think about it that way.

Penny Williams [00:08:26]: Yeah. Yeah. And I've had a lot of parents over the years ask me about, you know, my kid is, as you brought up earlier, touching himself or, you know and that feels like, I think, the door to something worse for parents. Like, they automatically go to that bad place. How do you advise that we handle situations like that? I think the fear is they're gonna do it in public.

Amy Lang, MA [00:08:54]: Right? Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, if you've got a kid that's discovered that touching their penis or their vulva is a way to self soothe or it becomes, you know, becomes a natural part of, like, how they roll in their life Yeah. So I'm just gonna give some language stuff here. So a kiddo that's figured out it feels good to touch their penis, and they're doing that because it's self soothing, because it chills them out, like, that's not necessarily, like, I don't necessarily call that masturbation. If a child is 12, 13, 14, and they're doing that, then that's an entirely different animal, and they'll still do it for the same reasons. But if you have a kiddo that is touching their privates in public, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Amy Lang, MA [00:09:35]: Now, if they can't stop doing it, and you've been really clear and said, hey, in your bedroom, in the bathroom, not here, that's not okay. So you have to be firm and clear, saying, what the hell are you doing? Knock it off. Right? That doesn't work, we all know that as parents. Knowing that and doing that, not doing that are 2 different things. Right?

Penny Williams [00:09:54]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:09:54]: So being really clear, like, this is okay, this is the time and the place. Now, if your kiddo's compulsive about it, and can't stop doing it, then something else might be going on with a neurodivergent kid. It could just be that's the thing they've picked to calm down. Right. Which, no thank you. Right? But, so paying attention to your kid, but most kids with a clear, kind redirection will find some other way to self soothe, or sometimes we call this self stimulate, that kind thing. So jumping to, they are going to assault someone, they've been molested, is not the place to go, because it feels good to touch those parts. And if you don't have a lot of impulse control, and you're bored

Penny Williams [00:10:35]: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right? So setting good boundaries

Amy Lang, MA [00:10:39]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:10:39]: about location. And then I think, you know, if it is that compulsive thing, like, there's just no control speaking to their physician or a therapist or someone. Okay.

Amy Lang, MA [00:10:51]: Yeah. Yeah. Just getting some outside help.

Penny Williams [00:10:54]: Yeah. I wanna pivot to talk about porn, because I know this is a huge worry for parents. It's a huge issue, I think, for so many kids, because there's so much access now. And it was something we struggled with, honestly, when my son was, I wanna say, like, 9 or 10. Felt really early to me. And it was, like, this huge alarm. I was like, holy moly. I don't know what to do with this.

Penny Williams [00:11:22]: Yeah. Because I futurecast. Right? Because I'm an anxious parent, and I went to all the places in my head, but didn't know what to do. And so I would love to give parents some tips, some clarification on what to say. Right? Where do we draw the line? All of these things that I think we don't know unless we talk about it.

Amy Lang, MA [00:11:46]: Yeah. So before we talk about porn, we gotta talk about sex.

Penny Williams [00:11:50]: Okay.

Amy Lang, MA [00:11:50]: So one of the biggest things you can do for your kid is to talk openly about sex and sexuality. They should know the usual way babies are made by the time they're 5. The thing to think about, like, when people hear that, oh, my God, penis and vagina by 5, people freak out. The thing you need to remember about a 5 year old is that when you say, this is how butter's made, and this is how a baby's made, it's the same

Amy Lang, MA [00:12:12]: To them. Yeah. We come in with the We we have all the information. Right? So having an open conversation as Earl from as early an age as possible, talking about, you know, sex is for pleasure, it's something people agree to do, it's for later in life, it's not for kids. It, you know, can be confusing and scary, but it's a really cool part of life. And so thinking about this in terms of preparing your child for their someday being in a sexual romantic relationship, instead of trying to get them to not do it. That doesn't work. We all know Mhmm.

Amy Lang, MA [00:12:43]: That that does not work. Didn't work for anybody.

Penny Williams [00:12:45]: Yeah. And no shaming.

Amy Lang, MA [00:12:46]: Right. Yeah. The shaming, all that. So presenting this as, like, hey, this is a cool important part of life. It's something you need a lot of information about, and it's something that, you know, you wanna wait for until you're older. You might throw a number in there, but you can't necessarily, you know, I don't ever say for marriage, because that is not true. People have sex before marriage all the time, but if that's your value, then you need to talk about why marriage, and then you gotta do this. You gotta cross fingers anyway, because you can't control them.

Amy Lang, MA [00:13:13]: Right?

Penny Williams [00:13:14]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:13:14]: So really setting them up with information about, you know, how families come together, talking about different kinds of relationships, and romance, and consent, and so really framing this as, you know, in my universe, I wish people would pay as much attention to this as they do to kids getting, I don't know what calculus is exactly, but they need more information about this than they do about math.

Penny Williams [00:13:36]: Right? Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:13:37]: This is something we do our entire lives. And then for a neurodivergent kid who's gonna have trouble understanding social cues, who might struggle through puberty because their body's doing some weird ass stuff, who might be hanging out with peers that are their same, you know, they're not at the same cognitive level, like you might have a 13 year old who's functioning more like a 10 or 11 year old, and those 13 year olds are talking about stuff, and your kid's gonna try to go along to get along, and if they don't have you as a resource to come back to and say, they said this really weird thing, I don't know what it is, because they need to know. Right? They need to know, and it does not hurt any child to have a lot of very specific and sometimes explicit information from their trustworthy adult or parent. You're not gonna hurt them with the information. And, you know, one of my things is that it is very hard for us to give our kids too much information, so your goal should be a sweaty upper lip. Like, I'm gonna talk about the thing, and if you don't have a sweaty upper lip, then you're not hitting it. And because you're gonna come into the conversation with some preparation, it's okay to plan before, my book, sex talks with tweens, is only scripts, so I give you the words, and come in with a plan, be ready to, be ready for your child to not wanna talk to you. There's all kinds of things that go on with every child, but lots of times neurodivergent kids are just like, hells no, I'm not interested, this is not for me, I'm too young, I don't wanna know, it's not important to me, and you have to push through that because of the situation with their development and their peers, and then, of course, the porn.

Amy Lang, MA [00:15:14]: So one of the reasons to talk with them openly is because when they are exposed, average age is 9, so your kiddo was right on target.

Penny Williams [00:15:21]: Yay.

Amy Lang, MA [00:15:23]: I know. It's like they're selling. So they need to know because when they see porn, they need to know that porn is people having sex, videos of people having sex. If they don't know what sex is, and they haven't had these conversations, especially about, hey, if you're curious about this, go over here, there's books, there's really good kids safe videos now, where they can learn about this stuff, they will just get into the porn. Now, I'm saying this, and of course, as you all know, it doesn't matter. You can do all the things, and your kid could still wind up in a rabbit hole of porn.

Penny Williams [00:15:56]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:15:56]: So but your job is to do everything you can to help them be successful when they are exposed. They will be exposed by the time they're 17, 18. Everybody is exposed. And the good news is, that most kids, the younger they are when they see it, when they see it, they're like, oh, gross, I don't wanna look at that, and they stop watching. The bad news is, with the neurodivergent brain, they see it, and they're more inclined to be like, oh, gross, oh, yeah, oh, right, what is this? And it can be sexually stimulating, it can just get them riled up, and so they might be they're more likely too rabbit holed to become compulsive users.

Penny Williams [00:16:29]: Mhmm.

Amy Lang, MA [00:16:29]: So, you know, you know your neurodivergent brains. Right? You know that this is a thing that can happen, and it can become a fixation or a special, what's it called? I still knew the words, A special interest.

Penny Williams [00:16:41]: Special interest. Yeah. And it's stimulating. You know? It's a video, and it's

Amy Lang, MA [00:16:46]: Oh, yeah.

Penny Williams [00:16:47]: Something interesting and weird, and so it's stimulating.

Amy Lang, MA [00:16:51]: Yeah. And then the dopamine and all the ick. I mean, the, you know, bad news bad bad news bad news. Go get your dopamine someplace else. Jump off a cliff. So Jump out of a plane. Just understanding too that, like, you know, there are myths about neurodivergent people and sexuality, and, you know, a lot of the times, it's that they're just not interested in sex and romance because that's just not what happens with those people. And I'm just, you know, out thereing with this.

Amy Lang, MA [00:17:18]: And so that's not true. That's not true. Pretty much everybody is interested in some way. Now not everyone wants to be in a sexual romantic relationship, of course. And then, you know, neurodivergent people are considerably more likely to be LGBTQ, and so that brings another element into these conversations.

Penny Williams [00:17:45]: Before we move on to a different topic with the porn, what is your advice if you didn't have the conversations, your kid has found it, You figured that out, and now you have to sort of backtrack almost. How do you how do you navigate that?

Amy Lang, MA [00:18:02]: Yeah. So the very first thing is that you need to apologize to your child for not protecting them and not talking with them about it. Because it is not their responsibility to have impulse control. It is not their responsibility to protect themselves online. If you're giving your child iPads, devices, etcetera, and you haven't set up parental controls, you're not monitoring, you don't know what's what's going on, it is not your child's fault that they were curious, it's not their fault that their friend sent them a link, it's not their fault, it's not their fault.

Penny Williams [00:18:30]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:18:30]: That's the first thing. So depending on how old your kid is, and, you know, how they roll in the world, that kind of thing, sure, they can take some responsibility, but initially, this is on you. If you did not prepare your child for seeing this, if you did not give them, like, this is what you do, you stop watching, you turn it off, you come tell me, you won't be in trouble, then you need to take responsibility for this. The other reason to take responsibility and to apologize to them is that they will lean into you. Mhmm. And when this happens to them, they should not get in trouble. It is Yeah. I mean, pretend you're 10 and Google boobs when we're done.

Penny Williams [00:19:05]: Right.

Amy Lang, MA [00:19:06]: And get ready. They're gonna see porn. Right? So they shouldn't get in trouble for their curiosity. They shouldn't get in trouble for their impulsive link clicking. And I know this might feel a little counterintuitive to folks, but this is a place where you really need to have connection with your child. And shaming, yelling, telling them, you know, you can't ever be on the Internets again, like having a big freak out at them, which I completely understand.

Penny Williams [00:19:29]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:19:30]: Of course, it's very scary. Right? This is scary stuff that can really mess them up, they get in a lot of trouble.

Penny Williams [00:19:36]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:19:36]: But if you can, when you find out, just take a beat before you get at them. And if you find out, like, so I'm just gonna suggest that if you haven't been monitoring or filtering your kids' stuff, that you do that, but go look at their search history. They're stupid. Some of them aren't, but some of them aren't. Go see what they've been up to. And if you find that they've been looking at porn, then you don't have the conversation in the moment. You wait, and you think, okay, for pairing with someone, how are we gonna handle this? You need to go in kindly, and then just make it really clear to them, like, why it's not okay for kids. It's confusing, it's scary, it's violent, it's sexist, it's misogynistic, it's terrible.

Amy Lang, MA [00:20:12]: So you're not gonna say that to an 8 year old. Right?

Penny Williams [00:20:14]: Right.

Amy Lang, MA [00:20:14]: But you're gonna talk about how people in porn, they are actors, nobody's body really looks like that. They're like some people compare them to superheroes, like the Incredible Hulk. That's not a real person body. Right? Talking about how people don't do those things, say those things when they're in a connected sexual situation, like, talking about that, but it's so hijack y, none of that gets in. So just being really mindful of, you know, the endless world of screen time. Right? And I know that your kids just need sometimes to have the iPad to settle out and to settle down. Like, I get that. But if you're not protecting them, if you're not using the parental controls, if you're not checking and they find this, it is on you.

Amy Lang, MA [00:20:57]: I mean that lovingly.

Penny Williams [00:20:58]: Yes. There's so many tools for that now too.

Amy Lang, MA [00:21:02]: There's so many tools Yeah. There's so many.

Penny Williams [00:21:04]: That can help with that and make it easy. You know? Yes. Yeah. 15 years ago, we were like I I was like, I don't I don't know how to control this. Like, yeah. It was so hard.

Amy Lang, MA [00:21:16]: Was one product. Yeah. Yeah. There was one product. So, yeah, we'll make sure that we have the my favorite in, like, in the show notes. So Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:21:22]: Yeah. We'll look that up for sure.

Amy Lang, MA [00:21:24]: Yeah. And then and I don't wanna like, I'm all doom and gloomy. Like, I we were talking, and I was like, I hate the porn. Like, I can't talk about talking about sexuality without talking about porn. And so the best thing for you to do is to kick that door open and start having conversations about sex so that you can talk about porn in a way that is kinder and more supportive. Does that make sense? Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:21:45]: Yeah. And I wonder how you feel about having a conversation about respect in that time. That was what I ended up sort of leaning on was, like, you know, if that was your mom or your sister, would you want a bunch of people seeing this? And, you know, that this isn't necessarily the way that you respect others.

Amy Lang, MA [00:22:10]: Love it.

Penny Williams [00:22:11]: Okay. Good.

Amy Lang, MA [00:22:12]: Love it. Right? Like, making it real and gross them out. Right? They'll be like, oh my god. Right?

Penny Williams [00:22:18]: Well, yeah, that is pretty gross to think about.

Amy Lang, MA [00:22:19]: Yeah. But still, whatever. I'm like all the tools in the toolbox. Right?

Penny Williams [00:22:23]: How do you respect other people? These are actual people, and we need to also be respectful of them. And I will raise my hand and admit it. My parents never had the conversation with me. I you know? So before age 9, no. I had no idea I should be doing that that early. Right? And so if you don't do it, no matter how uncomfortable and awkward it is and how much they don't wanna talk to you, things can really get out of hand.

Amy Lang, MA [00:22:50]: You know, getting in these conversations sooner is better, because it does establish this line of communication. And so a couple of just tips for that is, if your kid is young, like, if they're 6, 7, 8, you can just say, hey, we need to start talking about this and get books and and start the conversations. If they're older, 10, 11, 12, then you gotta say, I blew it. We should have been talking about this, but it's time. You might feel uncomfortable, I might be feel uncomfortable, but here we go. And you're in charge of the conversation. Do not expect them to ask you questions. Milo told me that he would never ask me or a or his dad a question about sex.

Amy Lang, MA [00:23:27]: He also told me he'd rather talk to strangers, which was also great. Right? It's like, that's not how this is supposed to go. Mhmm. But you're in charge, and it's about their health and safety. At the end of the day, it's about their health and safety. And even if they have given no indication that they're interested in sex or romance, even if you still give them the information, they live in the world. They live in the world. And the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll get.

Amy Lang, MA [00:23:54]: It's okay to say, I don't know what I'm doing. One of the things with neurodivergent kids is you need to attend to their learning style when it comes to this, so be very mindful. If your kid is not gonna be a good book reader, then find them books to listen to. Amaze.org has really great videos for kids, so that's a safe place for them to get information about sexuality. Also, you know, writing notes, sending texts. I had one mom pull out pages of there's a graphic novel style book that is called, you know, sex. She pulled out the pages on masturbation, stuck them on her son's bed with a Post it, read this, rather than overwhelming him with the whole book.

Penny Williams [00:24:34]: Right.

Amy Lang, MA [00:24:34]: I have another parent who just reads, like, reads out of my sex talk with tweens books, just reads a section about periods. Right? So any tool, and it does not matter, you just need to try. With neurodivergent kids, everybody does better, as you know, with short and sweet little spurts. So you might have to repeat yourself 73,000 times, which, hey, is not already part of your life. Yep. So just being mindful of that. But one other thing, and then I know you wanna talk about LGBTQ stuff, is that when neurodivergent kids are rolling into heading into puberty, it can be really, really hard on them. Every kid's different, but and hard on you.

Amy Lang, MA [00:25:10]: So the more they know, sooner, the better. Getting into, you know, bathing habits before they're stinky, that kind of thing, and just having them be ready for what's gonna happen. They're gonna get hair, they're gonna smell, they're gonna grow, they're gonna get a period, they're gonna get breasts, right? And that can all be really challenging, so you wanna make sure your child knows what's coming before it starts happening, so you can talk about it and prepare for it.

Penny Williams [00:25:32]: Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So let's go into LGBTQ, transgender, gender fluidity, they, them. You know? All of these things for parents in our generation are not new, but they're newly public, I guess, we could say. Right? And it seems like it's new for a lot of people. How do we have conversations with our kids about it? And, truly, I think neurodivergent populations are more likely to identify that way and to explore their gender or sexuality in ways that weren't so prevalent in our minds, at least, in our generation. Where do we go? What do we do? How do we talk?

Amy Lang, MA [00:26:24]: First thing you need to know is that neurodivergent people are 2 to 3 times more likely to be LGBTQ in some way. Transgender folks are 6 times more likely to be autistic. So there's real data out there, and the takeaway from that is, you should not be surprised if your child tells you they're a different gender than the one they were given at birth, that they're gay, they're, you know, they're anything that's LGBTQ. You should be ready for that, and you should be ready to support them, because the suicide rate amongst LGBTQ kids is 4 times higher than the general population. We throw some neurodivergence in there, and what do we got? Higher. Higher. And the number one thing that keeps kids on par with their peers, LGBTQ kids on par with their peers is parental support. So this can be hard, because like you said, what the hell is pansexual? Right?

Penny Williams [00:27:14]: Yep. Yep.

Amy Lang, MA [00:27:14]: What are we talking about, child? Right? And and so pansexual is someone who's attracted to somebody because of who they are. It doesn't matter their gender, their sex, their private parts, just who they are. So for you, with your kid, if they start exploring their gender, and oftentimes where kids will start, if they say, you know what, I'm not a boy, I'm a girl, or I'm neither, I'm both, you just say, tell me what that means to you. I wanna support you. And if they say they have a new name, you roll with the new name. If they have different pronouns, you use the new pronouns. Now you're gonna mess up, because your child has been Jane their entire life, and now they're James, which would be just mean. But now they're James, and so they, you know, they've got new pronouns, and so they can get quite irritated if you can't keep up with the pronouns.

Amy Lang, MA [00:28:02]: Just do the best you can. Yeah. And for most people, they settle out into their gender orientation. By the time they're, like, 17, 18, 19, not everybody comes to that in at the same like, we all know somebody who's come out when they were 80. Right? Like, we all know that I've heard of that person. So your job is to be kind, roll with it, make sure your child's safe. You may live in a state where it is not safe for them to be something other than cisgender and straight, so you're gonna need to be very, very careful with them, and very, very careful in your community with them. But, you know, there's so much information now about queer kids and queer people, and it makes things a lot easier for everyone, because you can get a lot of information about it.

Amy Lang, MA [00:28:44]: So I guess my thing here is, don't be surprised. Right. And even with neurotypical kids, there's tons of exploration now because we just have more information. It's more open. Yep. You know, everywhere we turn, there's somebody who's not cisgender and not straight. So cisgender means that your, your gender identity, like I'm a woman, matches your biological parts, so I'm female biology wise, which is way more complicated than that, but that's the basic understanding. And again, this might be really weird to you, like you might just think this is insanity and a trend, and all of that.

Amy Lang, MA [00:29:18]: And so again, your job is to freak out on your own time, because remember your child is your priority, right? You already have people where you go and freak out and scream and yell about what a horror show your child is, if you don't, I hope you do, you're not gonna do that in front of your kid. Right? So this is another place where you need to tend to your child first and take, you know, like I said, do your freak out on your own time. Mhmm. And, you know, the good news is, one of the lovely things about queer, neurodivergent people is they are very unapologetic Mhmm. About who they are. They're already carrying around something that's different. Right? And then they add this, and they're just, oftentimes, they're just like, this is who I am, and I love that, the clarity Yeah. Because they don't follow into those social norms.

Amy Lang, MA [00:29:59]: Right? That's the theory. Right? Like, if you don't really catch social cues or or you don't care about social norms, like, if you're like, you know what? I don't feel like a guy or a gal. I think I'm kind of a mix. That's it. Right? There's no overthinking. It's just like, I don't believe I don't fit here. I don't fit there. I'm just gonna be who I am, which we could all take a page.

Amy Lang, MA [00:30:19]: Right?

Penny Williams [00:30:19]: Exactly. For sure.

Amy Lang, MA [00:30:21]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:30:21]: And I think it makes them more accepting and more supportive of authenticity in their social groups and with people around them, which is amazing. Like, don't we want that for everyone? We do. You had said at the beginning of talking about this topic, prepare yourself as a parent.

Amy Lang, MA [00:30:43]: Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:30:43]: How do we prepare ourselves as a parent? I wanted to circle back to that because I think a lot of parents are going, I don't know how to prepare for that.

Amy Lang, MA [00:30:50]: Right. No. No. Thank you. So a couple things. Like, one of the things that I really recommend for parents to do in terms of, like, just thinking about this is just this is an enormous part of life. It is the biggest thing we do. We're sexual beings.

Amy Lang, MA [00:31:06]: We have relationships of all different kinds. It is with us from birth until death. In terms of child development, it gets ignored. It is a huge part of human development. So that's the first thing. Like, this is part of being human. Mhmm. I know you want your child to be successful as a human being in general.

Amy Lang, MA [00:31:21]: So if you can prioritize this and this idea that this is important and that your child has a human right to be as prepared as they can be for this part of life. Like when I took that on, you know, early days, I was like, oh, yeah, I want Milo to be ready for this, whatever that looks like for him, and for you, whatever that's gonna look like for your kid. Right? So if you think about it in terms of preparing them, it's like, yeah, you want them to be able to take the bus downtown. Right? You want them to be able to walk to school on their own. You want them to be able to x y z. You want them to be able to have a healthy relationship and a good relationship with themselves as a sexual person because you know what that's like not to have that.

Penny Williams [00:31:58]: Mhmm.

Amy Lang, MA [00:31:59]: Right?

Penny Williams [00:31:59]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:32:00]: That's the first thing. So just embrace that this is important. It's important to them. They'll do better, feel better. When you get the party started, you'll feel better, you'll do better. So one of the things you can do that I think is really really helpful is if you're parenting with someone or have a good friend, is to have a conversation about how did you learn about sexuality and relationships? So where did you get your information? What messages were you taught? Did you hear, like I said, the biggest one ever, sex is for marriage. That's a big one. Mhmm.

Amy Lang, MA [00:32:30]: Again, doesn't work to keep like, if you believe that, that's great, but you have to explain why it's so important. Just saying wait doesn't work. You know, talking about, like, when did you first hear about somebody being gay? Like, I remember my first gay person, it was Larry, the church organist. I had no idea he was gay. And then my friends who were smarter than me were, like, Larry's gay. I was, like, what? Like, so those moments and then the other piece too is thinking about, like, what do you want for your child's future? Like, in terms of the relationship with themselves, if you're parenting a girl, how do you want her to feel about her body? How are you gonna help her manage those messages she's gonna get? How do you want your kids to treat other people? How do they be a good partner? What do you hope for them? And starting there is buoying. So one of the reasons I have you talk about how you learned in the messages is to let you clear away the crap. Right? There's a bunch of stuff that did not work.

Amy Lang, MA [00:33:25]: Right? Mhmm. Like the double standard, like girls who have sex are sluts, and guys who have sex are studs. That's shifting some, but it's still there. Right? So letting go of what happened to you, embracing the stuff that worked, and then just taking a baby step. That baby step might just be to just say to your kid, you know what, we haven't talked about this enough, we need to start talking. I'm sorry, let's do it. Nothing else? Throw it out there, then you have to do it. Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:33:53]: Just a tiny thing, but this pre prep work is the thing that does the most, it's the most inspiring thing, is to, like, what happened to me, what do I want for my kid? And your kid's a different human. Right? Your kid's probably a different human, but if you're neurodivergent yourself, then you have a good place of, like, oh, my God, if I had just known in a different way than someone like me. Right? Mhmm. In a different way than someone like me with my neurotypical menopausal brain. So in a different way. So I think, like, taking a breath, you don't have to do it all at once. It needs to be in spurts, little bits and pieces, figuring out what's a priority for you. If you have a kid that's 9, and you or 8, and you haven't talked about puberty, get the puberty out of the way.

Amy Lang, MA [00:34:35]: You need to get that conversation started.

Penny Williams [00:34:37]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:34:38]: And again, even if they don't wanna talk about it, there's all kinds of tricks. You can say, I need 3 minutes, I'm gonna set a timer. You don't have to respond to me, I just need to say these things. I'm gonna write you a note, Right? Read it. Any little thing you can do, and one of the biggest things, especially for those kids who very much like to push back is to say, you don't have to respond to me, just listen. And then when you say that, when you get done, you do say, any thoughts, What do you think?

Penny Williams [00:35:05]: Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:35:05]: Questions? Like, you give them an opportunity to respond because just because you said they don't have to respond to you doesn't mean you don't make the offer. Right. Right.

Penny Williams [00:35:13]: But they can say no.

Amy Lang, MA [00:35:14]: Yeah. Totally.

Penny Williams [00:35:14]: And then you're done for that moment.

Amy Lang, MA [00:35:16]: And they probably will say no, you know, because, you know, how that goes. But they may not. They might be like, oh my god. Thank you. I was wondering what that is. Or, you know, they may say that's super gross, and you're like, yeah. It's because you're a kid. So let's have it be super gross until you're, like, 26 and your brain's fully developed.

Amy Lang, MA [00:35:31]: Let's probably do that.

Penny Williams [00:35:34]: Yeah. And being open to the fact that you're not raising a mini version of yourself. So you can share your values with your kid, but you can't expect that your kid is going to have the exact same values. Yeah. Right? But we do. Yeah. That's what we're taught to expect, and I just wanted to throw that in there too, because I think, you know, so often, we're like, well, you can't be that because I don't accept that. Well, that doesn't change who they are.

Penny Williams [00:36:05]: Mm-mm. I'm sorry, but that's not gonna change it.

Amy Lang, MA [00:36:07]: Mm-mm.

Penny Williams [00:36:08]: So you have to be open and open minded in all of this, in all of parenting, right, in everything.

Amy Lang, MA [00:36:16]: In everything. In everything. And that's the other thing too. Like you just said, you don't have the same values as your parents. No one does. Mhmm. Like, with the values, you wanna give them a starting off place. Like, I had a family, a couple say to me one time, oh, we're not gonna talk to our child about their our values because we want them to develop their own values.

Amy Lang, MA [00:36:34]: And I was, like, are you sure about that? Like like, I like, we of course, you your your child's gonna develop their own values, but you know you think your values are right. Right? So you're gonna talk about what you believe, and then your kid's gonna do what they're gonna do. And so you can't control them. You can give them a starting place. Right? And that's your job is to give them a starting place to make their own decisions, but they cracked, and I was, like, good luck with that.

Penny Williams [00:36:58]: Yeah. I think about a ship that's going out on exploration. You still have to have a captain. You still have to have a map. You still need information. Right? But you're also exploring.

Amy Lang, MA [00:37:10]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:37:10]: And yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:37:11]: I love that.

Penny Williams [00:37:12]: So important. Yeah.

Amy Lang, MA [00:37:13]: I love that. Great analogy.

Penny Williams [00:37:15]: Tell everybody where they can find you online, Amy, and where they can learn more, maybe work with you or learn from you.

Amy Lang, MA [00:37:21]: Yeah. So my website is birdsandbeesandkids.com, and there is a ton of stuff there, resources, endless blog, bookstore with a specific section for parents or for neurodivergent kids. So you can get the books I found there, which I think are really important. And then I have a free download, which is 3 key things your neurodivergent kid needs to know and 3 things for you. If you wanna click on that, it'll sign you up for my newsletter specifically for parents of neurodivergent kids. And then I also have, another resource online library for parents that's just everything you need to talk to neurodivergent and neurotypical kids about sex. So and then all the socials Mhmm. For its bees kids.

Penny Williams [00:38:01]: So needed, and we're gonna link all of that up in the show notes. Any books and things that you've talked about as we've had this conversation will be linked up there as well. Those show notes are at parentingadhdandautism.com/297 for episode 297. And I thank you. Thank you for being open to talking about these things and helping families and parents and, like, you know, taking a little bit of the awkward out of it Yeah. Is so needed.

Amy Lang, MA [00:38:31]: Like I said, I was really dismayed to see the lack of resources for parents like you. I was so surprised, and I tried and tried to find stuff. Yeah. So, you know, and I just, again, appreciate you trusting me with your people. Good luck out there. Start small. You can do this. No one's gonna die.

Amy Lang, MA [00:38:49]: No one's gonna throw up. Promise.

Penny Williams [00:38:50]: Yep. Just 3 sentences. Start with 3 sentences and let everybody off the hook. And, like, getting the ball rolling, I think, sometimes is the hardest thing. Right? So if you just do do a little bit, you'll be able to keep going later. Thank you. It was so lovely to meet you, and I appreciate you.

Amy Lang, MA [00:39:06]: Thanks.

Penny Williams [00:39:07]: And I will see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:39:12]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.