Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:00:03]: What we sort of think about as unhealthy gaming is their core psychological and neurological needs, which we kinda lay out in How to Raise a Healthy Gamer, and when these needs are met by the video game instead of real life, that's unhealthy gaming. And the goal of healthy gaming is to build a life that is satisfying all of your needs. And then gaming is recreation.

Penny Williams [00:00:24]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am so very excited to have Doctor K with me of Healthy Gamer, And we're gonna talk about all things technology and mental health, and all of these concerns that are so, so common for parents of, especially neurodivergent kids. I see a lot of neurodivergent kids leaning into gaming and online worlds, maybe a little bit more than neurotypical kids.

Penny Williams [00:01:15]: And so this is a really relevant conversation. It's something I get asked about constantly in my work with parents. So I'm so happy to have you here, Doctor K, to share your expertise. Will you start by letting everyone know who you are and what you do?

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:01:29]: Sure. Thank you so much for having me, Penny. I think it's a beautiful podcast here that you're on, and I think resources specifically for neurodivergent parenting are so worthwhile and so important nowadays. So I'm a recovering gaming addict myself, so I I played a ton of video games when I was growing up. Probably was on the ADHD spectrum or still am, so arguably was neurodiverse myself. Never really got tested or anything. And then developed a bunch of, like, compensatory mechanisms, so I I did okay, like, through high school, but really ran into problems in college, played a ton of video games, was gaming 16 to 20 hours a day, basically failed out of college after about 2 years, and then I went to India to go find myself. And my parents had tried everything.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:02:13]: They had tried, like, you know, discipline and a lot of love and support, and they just didn't really know what to do. And so went to India, studied to become a monk for about a summer, and then decided to become a monk. So I I followed that path for about 7 years and then walked away from that path when I met my wife. So the whole monk thing and celibacy thing wasn't gonna work out and then decided to go to med school. So I I became a psychiatrist. I did my psychiatry training at Harvard Medical School. And then really when I was training to become a psychiatrist, started asking questions about video game addiction. This was, like, back in 2014, 2015.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:02:47]: And I was really concerned about this as a problem. I had lived with it myself. I had seen it a lot with my, like, online friends that I used to play games with. And so was really stunned when I sort of noticed the field wasn't taking this, like, incredibly seriously. At the time in the United States, we had an opioid epidemic, and so that's where everyone was kinda focusing. But I was really worried about this, so I started working on video game addiction about 10 years ago now. And then when I finished my psychiatry training, started working with gamers on the Internet. So I started streaming on the Twitch platform, which is, like, actually a online gaming platform about how to develop healthy habits around technology and mental health.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:03:23]: So we grew very rapidly. We were the fastest growing stream on Twitch, and now we have an online community of, you know, anywhere from a 100000 to 6,000,000 people in 121 countries across the world that are all about focusing on their mental health and healthy gaming.

Penny Williams [00:03:38]: Yeah. And I like the term healthy gaming because you're not saying that gaming is bad, that people should quit gaming. It's finding balance. Right?

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:03:48]: Yeah. So I think for some people, that balance may be impossible to find, but I think that, see, if we look at our models of addiction, we tend to think that sobriety is, like, what we need to do. So if you have an alcohol problem or an opioid problem, like, sobriety is the answer. I think when you look at behavioral addictions that are not substances, not discrete chemicals, so things like, you know, sex addiction or technology addiction or shopping addiction.

Penny Williams [00:04:12]: Yeah.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:04:13]: I don't think we can have someone, you know, never engage in human relationships or never purchase anything again. Mhmm. So when it comes to our behaviors, I think that generally speaking, the goal is balance, and that's very true of technology for sure.

Penny Williams [00:04:28]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's pervasive. It's everywhere. Like, it it I think it takes mindfulness to find that balance now.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:04:35]: Absolutely. Right? Which is a big part of I I think what resonates with the online gaming community is the whole years of training to become a monk, and and that really goes a long way.

Penny Williams [00:04:45]: Yeah. Talk a little bit about gaming addiction for us. Will you define it? Because I think that parents tend to go to the addiction narrative pretty quickly when they're concerned, and it's hard for us to find that line. Where is the line between healthy gaming and unhealthy or even further down addiction. Right?

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:05:09]: Yeah. So the it it's such a great question, Penny. So there are a couple of things. First, let's start with, like, sort of the psychiatric definition. So a big part of my practice is addiction psychiatry. So when we're talking about what crosses the line into an addiction, well, when something starts to interfere with your function or your life in a significant way, that's when we call it an addiction. Okay. So if it negatively impacts your academic life, your professional life, your social life, your physical health, or your mental health.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:05:41]: So when the gaming, you know, keeps you from making friends, when it when you start to really see your grades drop, maybe not from a's to b's, but, you know, a's to c's, when you when it's really impacting your function, when you're not able to leave the room, when you have difficulty getting out of bed, you know, this is when we really think about something as an addiction. Okay. Now in my opinion I mean, that can be relevant, but I think what most parents are dealing with is some version of addiction. And and our goal is to create balance. Right? So even if it doesn't cross the threshold of addiction, if it's still somewhat unhealthy, that should still be acted upon. Right. So, you know, our goal is not just to avoid addiction. It's let's develop a healthy relationship with technology that your child can then grow with so that when you as the parent are a little bit more out of the picture, your child is independent and stable enough to be able to, like, handle technology on our own.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:06:38]: That's ultimately our goal.

Penny Williams [00:06:40]: Mhmm. And that's so important. I talk a lot with parents about setting up strategies and scaffolding support and stuff in a way that you can remove yourself from the middle. Mhmm. Our goal as a parent is to create individual adults who can be self reliant, and so we often just wanna manage everything, because I think that's human nature. And so thinking about how do we remove ourselves as we're setting things up is so so valuable. Talk to us a little bit more about the concept of a healthy gamer. What does that look like?

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:07:16]: Yeah. It's it's such a great question. So we kinda lay this out in a fair amount of detail in in how to raise a healthy gamer. So I think that if we look at video games Mhmm. What they do is activate certain parts of our brain. And as video games have become more addicted, they have activated more parts of our brain. Mhmm. So back in the day when I was growing up, I used to play the Nintendo Entertainment System.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:07:37]: There was no online component. There was no friend component. There was no online, like, community.

Penny Williams [00:07:43]: Right.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:07:43]: So then what happened is game developers realized, oh, the game would be more fun if you could play it with all of your friends. The game would be more fun if you could play it with people across the globe. It used to be that games would just activate like our dopaminergic circuitry and give us pleasure and joy and fun, but then it started activating our social circuitry. And so what happens with unhealthy gaming is that we have all of these psychological and neurological needs, these drives, these different parts of our brain. And the reason that these parts of our brain exist is to help us function in the real world. So unhealthy gaming is when our biological and psychological needs are being fulfilled by the game instead of real life.

Penny Williams [00:08:28]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:08:29]: So when our sole source or primary source of social interaction is not the real world, that becomes a problem. Because even though I can have a real friend on the Internet, I can never hug them. If I never hug them, I will never secrete oxytocin. And oxytocin is a hormone that forms bonding. It improves mental health. It lowers our stress level. So what's happening in the virtual world is we're getting, like, fake versions of the real thing. But it scratches our brains itch kind of in this way where, like, it sorta does half the job.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:09:04]: So what happens with unhealthy gaming is most people, these people, their sense of identity, their online relationships, even their brain's natural desire to grow and progress is being satisfied through the video game. But they're not growing and progressing in real life. They're growing and progressing in the video game, which has no value the moment that you stop playing the video game. So what we sort of think about as unhealthy gaming is their core psychological and neurological needs which we kinda lay out in How to Raise a Healthy Gamer. And when these needs are met by the video game instead of real life, that's unhealthy gaming. And the goal of healthy gaming is to build a life that is satisfying all of your needs. And then gaming is recreation. Gaming is fun.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:09:46]: Gaming is something you do on nights, something you do on weekends, something you do to have a good time. I still play video games. I have a 6 year old and 8 year old, one of whom is probably neurodiverse. We still play video games, and it's about building a healthy life and then having gaming on the side.

Penny Williams [00:10:02]: Yeah. Yeah. And what do you tell parents who are really struggling with that, who are really struggling to not only teach their kids that healthy gaming lifestyle, but to get them to pull back. Like, we struggle so much. And I know that part of that is what you've already mentioned. You know, their brain is getting things that make it feel good. And as all humans do, we want to lean into that. But we struggle with how do we get kids to recognize maybe Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:10:39]: That it isn't healthy if they're not doing other things.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:10:43]: So this is where things are gonna sound kinda weird. So what we try to tell parents is that a a lot of the language that you use, Penny, is so commonly used, and that's the problem.

Penny Williams [00:10:52]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:10:52]: How do I get them to Yep. Right? So if you sort of think about it in this relationship, even those words are like, how do I yank my child into understanding?

Penny Williams [00:11:02]: Right.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:11:02]: So what we actually advocate for and remember that the majority of people I I've worked with are actually your kids. Right? So I was talking directly to the gamers. And then we developed a program for parents where we took everything that I learned working with thousands, hundreds of thousands of gamers and then taught it to the parents, and it's been very effective. So I think the biggest thing is that if you look at the issue right now, it's parents trying to get your child to do something.

Penny Williams [00:11:28]: Mhmm. Of course.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:11:28]: There's no independence on the part of the child. There's no understanding on the part of the child. So what we actually advocate for, and and I I agree with your approach a 100% that our goal as parents is to create children who are independent. Mhmm. And so how do you do that? So the first thing that you do is you take a step back from limit setting, which is really confusing for parents.

Penny Williams [00:11:49]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:11:50]: So what we advocate for is for 1 to 2 months, and this is laid out, like, week by week with sample dialogue and and all these kinds of obstacles you're gonna run into in the book. So what we do is we say for the first, like, month or 2, just talk to your kid. So a lot of times, we as parents are trying to institute changes without understanding what is the drive for the addictive behavior. Yep. So we're trying to take this game away because we see the damage it's causing, and it is causing damage. But we don't know what the benefit of the game is. Mhmm. And as long as the the game is doing something for your child, it's gonna be really hard to take away.

Penny Williams [00:12:26]: Yeah.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:12:27]: So even in addictions, whether you're talking about like alcohol addiction or marijuana addiction, the reason that addictions are such problems is not because they're problems. It's because they're solutions. They're very good solutions. Mhmm. As long as I'm drinking, I don't feel my negative emotions. I don't have to worry about my problems. I was working with someone who is addicted to opiates, and and their life was literally falling apart. They were in the middle of, like, divorce proceedings.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:12:50]: They were on probation at their job. Their kids hated them. And I was like, I don't understand. Like, why don't you just stop? This is ruining everything in your life. And they they laughed, and they said, well, I don't think you understand, doc. It's not ruining everything in my life. The when I'm high on opiates, it's the only time my life is okay. Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:13:07]: Right? Because everything is falling apart except when I'm high, and then all those problems disappear. So addictions are solutions in addition to being problems. So as a parent, what we advocate for is spend a month or 2 just talking to your child about what do you like about the video game, what's hard about the real world, and what's easy about the video game. And then what we wanna do is find some kind of common ground where what's something that you want to change in the real world? Your kid may not care about grades, but maybe they care about making friends or not having friends, or they feel embarrassed about the way that they look. So once we find something that is important to your child, that's gonna be kinda the first step that we take. So let's work on that. So the other thing that we recommend so first thing that we recommend to parents is take a step back, spend a month or 2 just talking to your child, and disarm that defensiveness. Because the other thing that we tend to see a lot of is that when you talk to your child about gaming, it's always a battle.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:14:04]: Because you're, you know, they're on the defensive, and you're on the offensive. So we have to disable that because y'all need to be working on the same team. Yes. There's something I've learned working in addiction psychiatry. You can't be sober for someone else. Right? We I've seen spouses try to be sober and try to enforce sobriety on their partner who's an alcoholic. Like, their heart has to be in it. So the crux of our strategy is helping your child's heart be in the right place.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:14:29]: Let their own motivation, instead of fighting against yours, be aligned with yours. And the 2 of y'all are then on the same team. And the moment that y'all get on the same team, that's when things get easier and so much better, and that's when we see the best outcomes.

Penny Williams [00:14:42]: Absolutely.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:14:43]: So spend a month or 2 just talking to your kid about what their challenges are, and try to pick something that they wanna fix in the real world. Another thing that we sort of recommend, which a lot of parents really struggle with, is, like, this is a long term, sustainable, slow solution. Most parents will try to institute very harsh limits, like no more gaming or no gaming this weekend. What we sort of think about is, like, you know, a 1% trajectory change over the course of, like, 18 months or 2 years will lead you in a completely different place. You know, if I'm crossing the ocean, and I'm one degree off course, I'm gonna end up in a completely different place. So we we recommend that parents really go slow, and they really foster independence. We see good progress start to happen in about 2 to 3 months. And then oftentimes, it takes, like, a year or 2.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:15:32]: To really get to where we wanna go. And oftentimes, parents don't think about this as a okay. This is like a 700 day thing that I'm doing. I'm embarking on a 700 day adventure with my child. Right? We wanna see progress. We see the f on their transcript today. We see them getting into a fight at the playground today, and we wanna fix that within 30 days. So slow and sustainable is kind of our approach.

Penny Williams [00:15:57]: Yeah. And that's, I think, the only way to make behavior change, honestly.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:16:01]: Yeah.

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Penny Williams [00:19:20]: One thing that really came up as you were talking for me is a focus on relationship with your child. We talk a lot about how the relationship with your child guides everything, and that dynamic can be so fractured when you're fighting with your kid over screens or gaming or anything else. You know? I always remind myself, what I resist will persist. Right? Where we put our energy, it's gonna come back. And if it's in that negative space of battling, then we just get stuck with our kids and we create a worse relationship. We're deteriorating that relationship, and then everything is gonna fall apart.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:20:02]: Yeah. I I think it's and it's especially challenging if we're talking about neurodiverse kids. Mhmm. So I I think that this is where, you know, we see this a lot, and I wanna say, like, we don't have hard and fast statistics about this, but I wanna say that 20 to 30% of our community is neurodiverse. So, like, just very, very high numbers of people who are neurodiverse. And, you know, maybe in in the general population, it's, like, under 10%. So what we tend to see is, first of all, parents can have great relationships with their kids except when it comes to gaming. Their kid is a little angel, listens, is great, is kind, except when it comes to gaming.

Penny Williams [00:20:39]: Yeah.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:20:39]: And this is so true of neurodiversity because neurodiversity is a vulnerability for video game addiction. I think the other challenge that we tend to see is that, you know, sometimes kids who are on the autism spectrum or have ADHD, their capacity to really see the problems that their gaming causes, it seems to be impaired compared to neurotypical kids. There's a certain obsessiveness on the autism spectrum. You know, that that's just like I hear from so many parents. That's just all he wants to do all day long. Yeah. Right? Like, I mean, he can do it for 4 hours.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:21:10]: And hour number 5, like, he never gets bored of it. Right? And I think we see that there are a couple of intersectionalities. So the first is if we look at kids on the spectrum, you know, the real world is very confusing because some of their empathic circuits, some of their ability to read social cues, pay attention to tone, body language, those are a little bit impaired. Most of us don't ever get taught the rules of how to live life. Yeah. So it's very appealing to the neurodiverse brain to spend my time in a computer or a video game where, like, all the rules are laid out. The rules are same for everybody. Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:21:48]: And I can understand the rules. The the world is structured. Whereas, you know, I'm just thinking about, you know, my marriage, and it's like I can ask my wife, hey, is is everything okay? And she's like, yeah, everything's fine.

Penny Williams [00:22:00]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:22:00]: But it's not. Mhmm. Right? So the real world is so confusing. And some of our brains are sort of adapted to handle that, and some of our our brains really struggle with some of those things. So the the virtual world is so much more appealing and comfortable if you're on the autism spectrum because everything is laid out. Yeah. Even if we look at simple things like communication, it's all over text. There's no facial expression.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:22:22]: There's no body language. There's you know, it's all, like, it's literally text. On the flip side, what we see on the, on ADHD is that these are kids who struggle to have their attention held in place.

Penny Williams [00:22:34]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:22:34]: So everyone tells me, like, when I was growing up, my teachers would always tell my parents, oh, if he just applied himself, he would do so much better. If he just tried harder, he would do so. He's so smart if he just tried harder. But my brain couldn't focus. I couldn't try harder. I was trying very hard to get to, you know, mediocre performance.

Penny Williams [00:22:53]: Yeah.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:22:53]: And then along comes a video game that does all the attentional work for you. I don't have to struggle to pay attention to a video game. Right? There are bright sounds. There are I mean, you know, vivid sounds, bright colors, all these kinds of sensory input that keeps me glued. And kids with ADHD, they can play games for, like, you know, 10 hours at a stretch. And so if you really look at the experience of the child, it's very, like, it's awesome. Like, we all love getting lost in a movie, getting lost in a book, getting lost in a video game. You know, we love getting lost in something.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:23:25]: And for a child with ADHD, the real world, you can't get lost in. Right? You're you're struggling to pay attention. You're struggling to, you know, understand what's going on. Your mind keeps wandering. You don't get to relax into something. Right. Even being sitting in a classroom is a lot of work. Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:23:44]: You're not just sitting and relaxing. Whereas, a video game offers you an effortless way to focus your mind and get lost in something. So that in and of itself is incredibly addictive. Yeah. So we see that there's a lot of intersectionality that, you know, once parents understand, once you understand what's going on with your child, I've seen this both as a doctor, you know, and as a, you know, gamer, that once a parent understands what's going on with the child, their ability to parent becomes far more effective.

Penny Williams [00:24:13]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:24:14]: So we try to lay that stuff out.

Penny Williams [00:24:15]: Yeah. With anything, when you understand what's going on and driving it or triggering it.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:24:20]: Yep.

Penny Williams [00:24:20]: Then you can actually affect change. Yeah. Right? If we just avoid that information, if we don't gather that information and get curious, we can't really affect change. Like you were saying earlier, you know, we try to impose our will as parents, and stop doing that. Get off of that right now. You shouldn't be spending that much time on that. And the key is understanding why it's happening so that we can address that why.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:24:45]: Absolutely.

Penny Williams [00:24:46]: I wanna talk a little bit about the intersection of gaming and mental health. We are certainly seeing a drastic increase in anxiety among young people, And I know that there are some correlations between social media and anxiety. And I would imagine in the gaming world, there are some mental health challenges too. I mean, there's mental health challenges with addiction. Yeah. So there's a lot there, I think, to unpack. What do you wanna let parents know?

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:25:17]: So there's a huge intersection between gaming and anxiety. And if we really wanna understand this, we really have to look at the brain science. So if you look at the effect of gaming on anxiety, it is in a short term way very good. So the parts of our brain that experience anxiety, this is like our amygdala and our limbic system. These parts of the brain are artificially shut off anytime we play a video game.

Penny Williams [00:25:41]: Wow.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:25:41]: So this was something that I experienced a lot of when I was, like, literally failing out of college is I was, like, terrified. I was, like, oh my god. I'm failing out of college. What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? I felt such a gigantic amount of anxiety that it was unmanageable. So what do you do? You self medicate. That's what all brains do. The brain figures out, okay. When I play a video game, I'm not thinking about the future.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:26:04]: I'm just focused on this match and dumpster in this guy that I'm I'm fighting against. Right? Like, that's all I care about. So the when we play video games, it artificially suppresses our negative emotional circuitry, which means we feel better. Right? This is why recreational activities can help us feel better. The problem is that this creates a cycle. So the moment I stop playing the video game, all of the anxiety comes rushing back. The second problem that we run into is that anxiety is actually a powerful motivator. There's a reason why we've all evolved to feel anxiety.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:26:37]: Because anxiety is what warns us about danger and hopefully helps us take corrective action. So when we start playing games, the problem is that that anxiety is no longer serving its purpose of actually fixing a problem. So we make the anxiety go away, and then the problem actually gets worse. And as the problem gets worse this is what happened with me. As the problem gets worse, my emotions get more out of whack. The more my emotions get out of whack, the more I need to play video games to manage them. So then this creates a vicious cycle where anxiety gets worse. We become more dependent on gaming, and then the problems don't get solved.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:27:13]: So then the problems get worse, then the anxiety gets worse. And it basically becomes, like, kind of an unsolvable situation. The other problem that happens when we play lots of video games, and we're seeing this more now than I think even I experienced, is that as developing brains play video games, their capacity to self regulate starts to get rusty. So I've noticed that people who play a lot of video games, you know, they don't develop an alternative way to manage their anxiety. So anxiety feels more raw and more intense for them. And what parents see is that, you know, you'll see your kid is anxious and you're like, I wonder why this is, And it's because their brain hasn't learned a way to manage that. It's kinda like if we take the elevator all the time, we're gonna have difficulty climbing the stairs, and we're seeing the same thing. The the body is becoming the brain is becoming deconditioned with dealing with anxiety.

Penny Williams [00:28:03]: Wow. Yeah. So much there. Yeah. That self medicating piece is huge. You know? It's huge. And it that escape is, like, helpful on the one hand, but as you're explaining, it's not in the long term. It makes you feel better right now, but it doesn't help in the long term.

Penny Williams [00:28:24]: And I will say, like, my son, he's 21 and neurodivergent and a heavy gamer, and he has now been starting to finally come to these realizations on his own and really engaging with the fact that, oh, I feel better when I hang out with people in person.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:28:44]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:28:44]: I feel different. This feels good. Like, you know, he's finally able to reflect and recognize that and then act on it. And it's amazing. It it's a struggle because it it's coming so late, but neurodivergent individuals as as kids are developmentally delayed. And so Yeah. While, you know, he was born 21 years ago, a lot of that functioning stuff is still lagging behind that. But just seeing that he's finally getting it is so powerful, and that's what I think the message here is for parents, is that it can't be about what we want.

Penny Williams [00:29:25]: It can't be about our own anxiety about our kids' gaming. They have to recognize and want a healthier way for themselves.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:29:36]: Yeah. And that's what we sort of advocate for. Right? And when we started streaming, like, you know, our core audience was young men between the ages of 2027. And Mhmm. What our core audience was is these people who are just like your son who realize, hold on a second. Even though gaming relieves my anxiety, I much prefer if the problem itself is fixed. That is such a better solution. And so kids will start to learn this stuff at some point.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:30:01]: Right? And we wanna foster that self understanding. And the problem is that where there's something interesting that parents do where we kinda shoot ourselves in the foot, because the more responsibility we take for the situation, the more we say, okay, no more gaming, and you gotta do this. You gotta do this. You gotta do this. You aren't actually fostering independence. You're doing the opposite. Yeah. And then parents create this vicious cycle where unless I am on top of them 247, they'll start to game.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:30:29]: And the more on top of them you get, the less independent they become. And this becomes a real problem when, once again, we're talking about neurodiversity. So there's a large part, you know, 1 third of the 1 fourth of the book is about boundary setting. So it's you know, we sort of combine these two things where it's about, you know, building a relationship and helping their understanding, but then there are also some evidence based techniques which work really well for people who are on the spectrum and people who have ADHD, people who have anxiety about how can you set boundaries and enforce boundaries to cultivate the right behavior. And I think if we're looking at it from a scientific standpoint, you know, we want that alliance building. We want that, you know, focus on understanding, but then we also wanna use good evidence based boundary setting techniques so that we can encourage the right behavior sort of like and we gotta use both. Because for a lot of parents, especially parents of younger kids, parents of children who are neurodiverse and a little bit developmentally delayed, they're not mentally in a place where they can understand 100%.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:31:27]: So then how do you deal with that? And that's all kinda laid out too.

Penny Williams [00:31:31]: Yeah. So next steps for parents after listening to this, obviously, you know, get the book, enroll in your parent course at Healthy Gamer. But while they're learning more and taking on that process, what can they go ahead and start doing right now today?

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:31:49]: Yeah. So I would say just the the most simple thing to start with is talk to your child about what they enjoy about gaming, and talk to your child about what they don't enjoy about the real world. So when you can bring those two things together, when you can make the real world a safer place for your child, the natural drive to play video games goes down. So we get addicted to video games when we have a life that is not worth living. That's why we need this virtual world. But the moment that our life is full of challenge and joy and accomplishment, that's when the game loses its appeal. Right? Right. And and so I I think just starting by understanding what is hard with your child's real life, like, what's hard in the real world, and helping them solve those problems will slowly reduce the gaming on its own.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:32:43]: And that's really what our goal is is is help your kid, you know, be socially successful, academically successful, professionally successful, physically healthy, be happy about their appearance. And and the more that we do those kinds of things, they don't need to fear the real world anymore. And then as we spend more time doing those things, we're gonna naturally spend less time gaming.

Penny Williams [00:33:02]: Wow. Yeah. So keep on helping them to feel safe in the world. Absolutely. Which is quite the challenge when you're neurodivergent.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:33:11]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:33:12]: So it it's a very, very appropriate message for everyone listening here. Thank you so much, doctor k, for sharing some of your time and wisdom with us. I really, really appreciate that. I will have links for doctor Kaye's book, course, website, social media, all that good stuff will be linked up in the show notes at parentingadhdandautism.com/281 for episode 281. I strongly encourage everyone listening to go and learn more from doctor Kaye and the work that he's doing, because this is, well, I think what parents are searching for. These are some of the insights and answers and and guidance that parents are really searching for. So thank you again. I appreciate you and all the work you're doing in the world.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:34:00]: Likewise, Penny. I I think it's, you know, it's so challenging to parent a, a child who who's neurodiverse. And I I think the work that you're doing to really support this group of parents because, you know, their life ain't easy.

Penny Williams [00:34:11]: Mhmm.

Alok Kanojia, MD MPH (Dr. K) [00:34:12]: You know, the the their children are beautifully complex. Right? The these children are just as beautiful and amazing as any other child out there. It's just we need to understand a little bit more about how to support them Yep. And bring that kind of beauty and amazingness out. So thank you for doing that work.

Penny Williams [00:34:29]: Oh, thank you. With that, we will end this episode. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.