Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:00:03]: Distracting yourself with something you really like is a great way to self regulate. Right? You'll be experiencing something that is unpleasant and you'll think, you know, if I could just go listen to my favorite song or something like that. Autistic people do this too, but what they do is they get kinda stuck because if they pull away from it, then all those unpleasant thoughts may start flooding in.

Penny Williams [00:00:29]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Beautifully

Penny Williams [00:00:56]: Complex. I have my friend and colleague, Sarah Whelan, here with me. If you have been listening to the podcast for any amount of time, you have probably heard an episode with Sarah. I haven't counted. I don't know how many that you have done with me, but it's been at least a dozen, I would say, if not more. Always great conversations. Always enlightening. And so, today, you're here with me to talk about kind of getting stuck in a loop, and this seems to be something that happens with some autistic individuals.

Penny Williams [00:01:30]: And we'll give you some examples. And Sarah's gonna let us know what the heck do we do when this happens. How do we help our kids when this happens? But first, Sarah, introduce yourself. Let everybody know who you are and what you do.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:01:42]: Okay. Well, I'm I'm Sarah Wayland and cofounder with Penny Williams of The Behavior Revolution. And I also have my own business called Guiding Exceptional Parents, where we do relationship based dynamic intelligence, RDI, with parents of autistic kids. And I recently coauthored a book called Is This Autism, and I think that's me.

Penny Williams [00:02:11]: And you're a mom to neurodivergent kids. Right?

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:02:14]: I am. I have 2 boys who are in their twenties. So 1 is 26, and the other 1 is 22.

Penny Williams [00:02:20]: Yep. And my kids are almost 22 and 25. So we're very, much kind of in the same Phase. In the same timeline, the same zone Yeah. Of young adults and trying to figure that out because, man, it's so much different than it was when we were young adults. Ugh. I think there's an extra layer of complexity for our generation of parents.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:02:42]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:02:42]: Trying to figure this out. Yep. And it can be really tough, but let's start talking about this stuck in a loop. Do you wanna maybe start with an example?

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:02:51]: Yeah. Okay. So my younger son was at a school that's entirely for autistic kids. And 1 of 1 of his friends did this thing where he looked up every single parent who was in my son's classroom and sent all of them text message and said, hi. I'm so and so, and and started up these conversations with us. And so he's a nice kid, so I was like, okay, I can, you know, talk to him about stuff. But he would do this thing where he would send me a text message, and he would say, what happens when I send too many text messages to people, and I blow their phone up? And I would write back, and I'd say, well, probably, they might block you if you do that. Right.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:03:44]: And he would say, do I get my phone taken away from me? Do I lose privileges? And he had this whole set of things that somebody had clearly told him it would happen Mhmm. If he blew up other people's phones. And so I wrote back, and I said, well, that's something that could happen if the adults in your life feel like that's appropriate. But then he would just keep asking the same question, like, over and over and over. What happens when I blow people's phones up? And this would repeat even within, you know, an hour period, but then, like, 2 days later, I might get another message. What happens when I blow people's phones up with too many text messages? And I was like, I've answered this question, like, probably about 20 times now. I think you know the answer because when you ask the question, if I say it the wrong way, you correct me. And so I was like, what is this about? Like, he's and he's clearly upset.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:04:43]: Right? Like, he's clearly upset stuck about the fact that he's doing this thing where he blows people's phones up. And, by the way, this was a thing happening at my son's school where a whole bunch of these kids was a thing happening at my son's school where a whole bunch of these kids, like, just decided they needed to send like, I I am really not exaggerating. Like, 1 time he sent me 40 icons, like, emojis in a row while I was with a client, and my phone was going bing bing bing bing bing bing bing bing. I was like, stop. So, anyway, he was clearly upset about the possibility of losing his phone and clearly processing what that meant. Right? And so he just kept asking for, like, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? What's gonna happen? He's clearly very anxious about it. And this behavior, he had a few of these loops that he would get stuck in. So the phone blowing up was 1.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:05:39]: He would do some inappropriate things with some of his classmates, and then he would write me a note. So what happens if I say inappropriate things to classmate z? And I I would write back, well, classmate z might decide they don't wanna talk to you anymore. Yep. But, anyway, he would do that. He would ask a question. He clearly knew the answer, and he, by the way, sends me questions that he knows I know the answer to all the time. Like, I live outside of Washington DC, between DC and Baltimore, and he's he loves airplanes, like, loves airplanes. And so he asks, what airport is near Hailethorpe? And and I would write back, Baltimore Washington International.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:06:18]: And then then he'd write, what airport is near Jessup? Baltimore, Washington airport. Right? So he'd he'd say these things. So that was also a loop he would get going on, like asking these questions about airports and what was near those airports. That had a different feel to it. That had a sort of, I'm thinking about airports, and I I really like airports. And here's somebody who actually knows these answers so I can engage in this topic.

Penny Williams [00:06:46]: Kind of a feedback loop almost. Right? Like, he just wanted the feedback of what connect. Wanted to share that experience about getting excited of which airports were where or something.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:06:57]: Absolutely. And I think it was how he connected with me. Right? I think that's how he connected. And it was actually because of him, I started understanding that we do this thing to autistic people, where we ask them questions, and then we ask them to answer them. So a lot of ABA is, like, based on, I'm gonna ask you a question that everybody knows the answer to, like, what color is your shirt? And then we ask them to answer the question. And so we teach them that that's a pattern of conversation that they're supposed to have. And so then they think, oh, that's how I connect with people. I ask a question, and that person answers, and and we can ask questions and get answers.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:07:41]: And that was a real eye opener for me. So I actually started you'll you'll appreciate this, Penny. I started using declarative language with him. Yep. So I didn't ask him questions. I would just say, I'm excited that my son is graduating, you know, in 2 months. He never ever responded, ever. He did not know what to do when I just made a statement like that.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:08:03]: He never responded. So I learned that to get a response from him, I really had to ask a question. But he did like connecting around, you know, the topics he was really into. Mhmm. So that was 1 kind of loop. Right? That was the I wanna share something with you, and the way I do it is I ask you a question, and you give me an answer that I know the answer to, so it's not outside of the framework of what I expect to hear. So I feel comforted by that.

Penny Williams [00:08:34]: Predictable. Right? Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:08:36]: But then there was this other thing that would happen where something bad was happening, and he felt upset. And then he would start asking questions that he already knew the answer to, but he didn't like the answer necessarily, And he'd get kinda caught in that loop, and that had a different feel to it. This went on for, honestly, a couple of years. Mhmm. And at some point, I was like, what is going on with this? Like, how can I help him? Because he's clearly upset, and I want to help him feel better. And at the same time, I don't want him blowing people's phones up with a 1, 000 emojis. And so 1 day, he wrote to me, and he said, you know, what happens if I send 40 emoji texts?

Penny Williams [00:09:22]: Sarah will stop responding to you.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:09:25]: That's right. That is correct. Well, actually, I didn't do that because I know that's upsetting.

Penny Williams [00:09:32]: Mhmm.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:09:32]: So I know it's very upsetting to send something and not get a response. Right? And so I wanted to figure out how to acknowledge his pain, right, in a way that maybe would help him feel better without excusing the behavior. Right? And so he texted me 1 day, and he was saying, you know, what happens when I I send person? He always had a person, like, he would get real focused on 1 person. So what happens when I send this person too many messages at once? And so I wrote back, and I said, you might get your phone taken away from you depending on what the adults think. And I said, did this happen? No response. And so then I said, I'm really sorry that you're worried about your phone getting taken away.

Penny Williams [00:10:24]: Did he respond?

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:10:25]: And he wrote back. He wrote back, and he said, thank you.

Penny Williams [00:10:31]: He felt validated.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:10:33]: Yes. Yes. So now what I do when he does this is I say like, I try to figure out if there's something driving it. Sometimes I just can't know because, you know, he's not with me, so I don't know what's going on. But I'll just say you know, he'll say, what happens when? And I'll say, sounds like something bad happened. I hope you're okay. Right? And he doesn't respond, but he also doesn't keep going with the loop. Right.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:11:04]: So that was a big realization for me that, you know, people with autism have different communication styles. Yeah. And I realized that that was his communication style. He was telling me I'm upset, and he wanted me to help him feel better. And I wasn't actually helping him by engaging in the loop. Right. I had to look at what was underneath the loop.

Penny Williams [00:11:30]: But for most people, they wouldn't recognize what you recognize. Right?

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:11:35]: Right. Right.

Penny Williams [00:11:36]: Most people wouldn't understand that he's stuck in a loop. He's worried about something, and he just really needs some validation and to feel seen, heard, and understood. Right? Yeah. And because the behavior on the surface is kind of frustrating and off putting.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:11:53]: Right.

Penny Williams [00:11:53]: So Right. You know, he was lucky that you were on the receiving end of that and knew to sort of dig deeper and figure that out for him. Unfortunately, not every adult will.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:12:04]: But look how long it took me. Right. It took me a year.

Penny Williams [00:12:08]: Took you a long time. So how long will it take somebody who doesn't understand any of this? You know? Exactly. Like, the real world that we live in, those neurotypical expectations can be really challenging when you have this sort of stuckness.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:12:22]: Yeah. So there are other kinds of loops that people get stuck into. I think we we've interviewed Kim Clary a few times. Mhmm. So she's an autistic OT, who I I just love Kim. She's really insightful about her experiences, and she talked about getting stuck in a loop. She gets stuck in loops. She definitely gets stuck, and she needs somebody external to help her get out of them.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:12:50]: So her husband will say like, he'll see she's stuck in a loop, and he'll say, Kim, you're stuck in a loop. So 1 she talked to me about was working on a PowerPoint slide, and she'll get stuck, like, rearranging 1 element on a slide. I think we all do that a little bit.

Penny Williams [00:13:08]: I was gonna say, that

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:13:09]: sounds like me.

Penny Williams [00:13:11]: Perfectionism? Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:13:13]: So she gets stuck, but what happens is she kinda gets stuck, and then she's moving it back and forth, and he's like, this isn't feeling like, you know, design consideration stuff. This feels more like she's stuck in a loop. And so he'd say, Kim, it looks like you're stuck in a loop. In 5 minutes, I'm gonna ask you to stand up and go get a drink of water. And so she would ignore him and just keep messing with it. And then in 5 minutes, he would go over and put his hand on her shoulder, and he'd say, Kim, you need to get a drink of water. And she'd be like, right. Right.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:13:47]: I'm stuck in a loop. Okay. I gotta get up and do that. And so I asked her about that, and she said that the key there was to give her something else to think about and do. Right? So when she was stuck on the the thing, it would not help to talk about the slide and the composition of the slide or whatever. Like, you needed to say, hey. Why don't you go get a drink of water? She also said she needed the gentle touch to kind of pull her out of the loop. Mhmm.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:14:17]: And that's obviously not gonna be true for everybody. But that, for me, was very helpful to hear that. I have a a client who he gets stuck in a loop, and his is kind of a motor. He gets stuck. So he uses an alternative communication device. It's an iPad, and it has he uses touch chat on there. And it has icons on it, and he'll go to push the icon, and then he just gets stuck, and he pushes it over and over and over and over and over and over and over. And it's saying the word over and over.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:14:50]: Mhmm. And his favorite button happens to be no. Of course, it does. And so his mom would say, so do you want a sandwich for lunch? And he'd go and hit it, and he it would say no, and then he'd get stuck, and it was saying no, no, no, no, no. So this this happened for a long time with him, and and after talking to Kim, I was like I told his mom. I said, I think he's stuck in a loop, and I think he needs help. And so she would go over and just move his hand away from the AAC device, and then ask him again, you know, do you want a sandwich? And, you know, sometimes he would go back to no, and sometimes he would just nod his head. Right? Mhmm.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:15:28]: But he needed external physical redirection in order to keep from being stuck like that. Yeah. Later so he has learned to communicate now, so this is a few years ago that that happened. He now can communicate by writing with his hand on a whiteboard using a marker, and we asked him about this. I was like, what was going on? And he he said 2 things. He said 1 was he really doesn't have good motor control. His motor control is really pretty faulty. And so he said a lot of times when he was going for no, he really meant yes, and his hand would hit the wrong button.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:16:09]: And then he would want to try to hit the yes button, but he couldn't make it change. Wow. Poor guy. Right?

Penny Williams [00:16:16]: Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:16:16]: Like, how frustrating would that be?

Penny Williams [00:16:18]: Just thinking they should put yes and no on opposite sides of the screen, so you can't accidentally say the wrong thing, but Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:16:24]: Right. Right.

Penny Williams [00:16:25]: Wow.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:16:26]: I mean, part of his deal is he's actually extremely thoughtful, and so his mom had a pretty big vocabulary list on the touch chat. You know, the yes and no were right next to each other, like you said. And it turns out that that is not the greatest way for him to communicate that with a a bunch of buttons like that. But the complexity of his thinking means he wants the option to express himself clearly like that.

Penny Williams [00:16:52]: Yeah. The story about Kim reminded me that sometimes we need a physical break, not just a mental break.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:17:01]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:17:02]: Like, sometimes you can say, well, it's time to do something different. Mhmm. But changing your thinking when you're still sitting in the same place looking at the same thing Yeah. Can be a lot harder than if you stand up and just start walking away or tell yourself to do something different. Then you have that physical movement help you with changing your thinking too

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:17:23]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:17:24]: At that time.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:17:25]: You know, Brenda Smith Miles, when I interviewed her for 1 of our past summits, She talked about in the rumble rage cycle when she would see a kid starting to rumble, and I do think the repetitiveness is sometimes a rumble

Penny Williams [00:17:39]: Mhmm.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:17:39]: Then she would say she would give the kid an errand to run. She was a teacher. So she'd just say, hey. You know what? I need missus, you know, Blufeld in room 20 to get this stapler, and she'd give the kid a stapler, and the kid would run the stapler over to her. And that was, like, enough to sort of shake it up. So I think you're exactly right. Like, it's just changing the environment gets your head sort of out of whatever stuck place it is, you know, is in.

Penny Williams [00:18:07]: Mhmm. I think about that because I get stuck in that way sometimes. Yeah. I have a lot of things to get done, and I just wanna get it done. And sometimes I can't let go of something. Right? I keep working on it working on it, and I'm really bad about getting up and taking a break, physically moving away

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:18:24]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:18:24]: Because I wanna be efficient, and I wanna get things done. Right? And it's like Right. I mean, it's so bad that I work with my therapist on, like, trying to get myself to move out of my chair for my work day, at least, like, once or twice.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:18:36]: Right.

Penny Williams [00:18:37]: So I think, you know, it it can happen to all of us. But Yes. When you have, like, an autistic brain, I think it just gets stuck more easily Mhmm. In those loops or on a particular thought. You know? Right. And I feel like there's gotta be some anxiety Oh, yeah. At play, at least sometimes in some of these situations

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:18:58]: For sure.

Penny Williams [00:18:58]: As well.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:18:59]: Yeah. There's there's a lot of reasons for the loop that are different. Right? So we talked about being upset and anxiety. Right? The other thing I didn't talk about, I talked about it a little bit, is that, you know, distracting yourself with something you really like is a great way to self regulate. Right? And so, you know, sometimes you'll be experiencing something that is unpleasant, and you'll think, you know, if I could just go listen to my favorite song or something like that. Autistic people do this too, but what they do is they go to the things they're really interested in. Right? Yeah. So if they're into k pop, then they might go and listen to a bunch of k pop and, you know, do research on, you know, whatever, but they get kinda stuck in that because if they pull away from it, then all those, you know, unpleasant thoughts may start flooding in.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:19:54]: So it's a way to help fill their mind with something that is pleasant for them, which can be frustrating if you're around them, because you're like, do we have to talk about k pop 1 more time? Like, really? But I think it's important to think, like, what's underneath this? Are they sharing a passion with me, and they want to share it? Or are they trying to self regulate because they're upset about something else? Right? Same behavior, very different underlying sources.

Penny Williams [00:20:21]: Mhmm.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:20:22]: And you really have to be a detective to try to figure out what's going on there.

Penny Williams [00:20:27]: It can be used as an avoidance tactic too, I would assume. Maybe not even consciously.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:20:33]: Absolutely.

Penny Williams [00:20:33]: The child may not be choosing to argue with you about the answer whether or not the phone's getting taken away. Right? Right. They're just stuck, and it's happening, but it could be an avoidance of reality or avoidance of discomfort or unpredictability or all of these things that tend to cause people to try to put some distance. Right? The other thought that's coming up, and I'm not sure if this is a really valid thought, but I'm just gonna talk it out, is, like, they're trying to create their own bubble of safety, almost. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. If I keep listening or talking about k pop or I keep asking this question, I don't have to face that unpredictability or whatever is going on.

Penny Williams [00:21:27]: I don't have to face the truth that, yes, my phone's gonna get taken away or something like that.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:21:30]: Or that I annoyed my friend. I annoyed my friend so much that she is now going to block me.

Penny Williams [00:21:37]: Right. Right.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:21:38]: Right? Which is what happens to this kid is people block him because he's really annoying sometimes.

Penny Williams [00:21:44]: How do you get through the day if your phone never stops pinging?

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:21:47]: Right. Right. And like I said, he gets real focused on, like, 1 person, and then he'll do this, and then they block him, and that's devastating because it really is the ultimate, you know, cut in the relationship when somebody blocks you like that, which is very upsetting. Control.

Penny Williams [00:22:04]: You have no control at that point. Like, you can't repair. You can't do anything about it. It's done, and and you didn't make the choice.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:22:12]: Oh, my gosh. So many texts from this poor guy, like, if person z blocked me, can I ask them to unblock me? That's I get that question a lot. And I write back, I said, well, sure, you can ask, but they don't have to. That is their choice. Friendship is a choice, which, you know, is not a fun message. Right? Yeah. But it's true.

Penny Williams [00:22:35]: You know,

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:22:35]: the other 1 I wanted to mention that I've heard, there are 2 other situations where people get kinda stuck in a loop. So 1 is stimming. Mhmm. You know? So if you're stimming, like, I'm just thinking, oh, here's 1. Like, my son, when he's self regulating, he'll go in the backyard, and he'll just start pacing back and forth, back and forth. He'll pace, pace, pace back and forth, back and forth. Actually and this happens with my son too. You know what? I just realized.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:23:02]: He has another 1 he does, and this is definitely a loop frame. We have a neighbor cat named Joe Bob. Joe Bob. And my son adores Joe Bob. He adores Joe Bob. And sometimes, he'll just come in the house, and he'll say, he has this phrase, what is the JoBob doing? Now, Penny, you know my older son. Like, he, you know, he can have a full conversation with us or whatever. But that phrase, what is the Jobob doing over and over and over again? And he started irritating himself with it.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:23:36]: Mhmm. He'd come in and say, what is the JoBob? Yeah. Like, he's like, I'm not asking a question about Joe Bob. I'm not asking. And so he'd get mad at himself. Actually, I would try to shift it a little bit, and I'd say, you know what our cat is doing? So and then I'd talk about our cat because he definitely loves cats. Like, that's definitely 1 of his big interests. And so Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:23:58]: That kinda got him out of the loop about Joe Bob and into talking about, you know, whatever our cat is doing. Mhmm. So that thing where a stim can kind of morph into a loop that you're stuck in and you can't get out of it even though you desperately want out of it. So that's a thing that can happen. And the other 1 that happens I don't know how to talk about this 1, but, like, listeners may or may not know this, but my father is autistic, and he's in his eighties, and he's living alone. And sometimes he gets anxious about stuff. He's definitely got some anxieties. And whenever he gets anxious, he has these certain go to topics that he he will just talk about.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:24:44]: And 1 of them for a long time so my mom passed away during COVID, and it was after a very long illness. And he was obviously very anxious about that because they had a long and wonderful marriage. And when he would start talking about something that he would get upset about, he had decided that this guy had hacked into his computer, and I think he knows this this Bobby. So Bobby had hacked into his computer, and he was convinced Bobby was a North Korean spy, and and they were spying on his computer. It's 87 year old guy. Right? And so whenever he would like, something emotional would come up about my mom, he'd start talking about Bobby, and he would just talk. He'd say the same exact, you know, description of what was going on and what Bobby was doing. And if I tried to interrupt it

Penny Williams [00:25:37]: Start over.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:25:37]: He just had to start over and go through the whole thing again.

Penny Williams [00:25:40]: Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:25:41]: He it was just like and it was it was definitely a loop. And, in fact, when I told him, I said, this feels like 1 of your loops. He was like, it's a loop. That is a great word for this.

Penny Williams [00:25:51]: Got it. And I can't get out.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:25:52]: He can't. And he's he gets frustrated with himself, but here's the crazy thing about Bobby. He doesn't talk about Bobby anymore. So my mom passed, and for the next year this is crazy. He told me this story about how he had this dream that he was trying to solve a cryptographic puzzle. Right? So there was this string of characters, and he was supposed to solve the puzzle, and he would solve it, and then he'd just get another 1 that was a little bit longer, And then he would solve it, and then he'd get another 1 that was a little bit longer. It's a recurring dream that was happening over a year. So I went to visit him, and he's like, I have this recurring dream.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:26:34]: I can't get out of it, and every time I solve the problem, it just gets longer and longer and longer. And I was like, that is a metaphor for how you were, like, trying to help mom. Like, you were trying to help her, and everything you did, nothing worked. Like, you would figure something out, and something else would happen, and you'd figure that out and something else would happen. And so we just talked about it, and I went to visit him again a few months later. And he said, you know what? I'm not having that dream anymore. I'm not it it's it's done. I haven't I haven't had it in a very long time.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:27:12]: So something happened, and he was done with the dream, and that loop was gone from his life. And I've actually had clients, autistic adult clients, who tell me, like, they'll get stuck on something. Like, why did this happen, or why do people do this thing? They get very stuck on it, very stuck on it. And then some insight comes in or something happens, and they're like, okay. Letting it go.

Penny Williams [00:27:39]: Mhmm. Somehow it resolves.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:27:41]: Somehow it resolves. I don't and that 1, I wish I could tell you what's going on. I think with my dad, some of it was just him saying it to me and us talking through it and being able to really talk through it. So, anyway, those are all the kinds of loops I could think of when I was thinking about doing this.

Penny Williams [00:28:03]: There are so many loops.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:28:05]: Right? So many.

Penny Williams [00:28:06]: And I think too, like, visualizing

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:28:08]: a loop Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:28:10]: Like, I'm just visualizing, like, a ring of fire Yeah. And you're in the middle of it. Mhmm. Right? How do you get out? There's no break in it. Yeah. How do you get through that wall? Yeah. You have to create some sort of break. Right? Right.

Penny Williams [00:28:24]: So sometimes you might need somebody to bring some help, maybe to pour a bucket of water on a patch of it so you can get through. Right? Or maybe they can instruct you on how to kick the dirt on the fire and put it out so you can get through.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:28:38]: Or Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:28:39]: You know, whatever. There's such an interplay there between other people. Like, every loop that you've described either involved another person, or it only resolved when it involved another person.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:28:54]: Yes. Yes.

Penny Williams [00:28:56]: Yeah. There's some dynamic there that's interesting.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:28:58]: Like, at first, like, the stuff I was talking about at the beginning are, like, that's a little, like, not something I've maybe experienced in myself. But some of this other stuff I was talking about, I bet you can relate to it. Mhmm. Right? And so it's something that's part of all of us.

Penny Williams [00:29:15]: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:29:16]: Right? I I think that's important to remember too. I will share that, you know, when I was talking about Kim and her husband would gently touch her on the shoulder and say, hey. You need to go get a drink of water. Right? That that was very gentle.

Penny Williams [00:29:30]: Right.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:29:31]: And he wasn't commanding that she do it. It was a, hey. You might think about this. Right? So none of these these ideas that I was offering as ways of helping the person get out of the loop, involve saying, you are stuck in a loop, get off, you know, just get over it.

Penny Williams [00:29:50]: Restate the obvious. It's not helpful. Right.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:29:52]: Well, it isn't working. And I think it's important to remember that, usually, the person understands they're stuck in a loop.

Penny Williams [00:30:00]: Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:30:01]: And they want out of the loop. They just don't know how.

Penny Williams [00:30:04]: Right? Even younger kids can recognize when they just feel stuck. And, like, when you were saying that your son would get upset with him when he was halfway through repeating himself, like, that shows that it wasn't really within his control. He wasn't choosing to be repetitive, to annoy people. Exactly. He wasn't having any fun with it either. Right? He was clearly, like, physiologically stuck. Right. And I think it's important to make that distinction that Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:30:34]: This is biology and neurology that's at play here. It's never a choice if someone is truly stuck in a loop. Right? They're not choosing that.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:30:45]: Right. The stim situation is 1 that is a little murky on that front, because the stim feels good. Right? The stim feels regulating, but the fact that it can morph into a loop, like, that's tricky to navigate. So I I have found just talking afterwards about, you know, how to know and I will ask. I'll say, are you stimming? Are you in the loop? You know, I'll just ask. And my older son is definitely more prone to getting stuck in that than my younger son, getting stuck in a loop like that.

Penny Williams [00:31:20]: It's tricky. It's tricky for parents to navigate.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:31:23]: You know, Penny, I just thought of something as we were talking. That story you tell about your son, Ricochet, when he was really, really little and he went into the,

Penny Williams [00:31:36]: The Goodwill store? The Goodwill store? Yes. The epic meltdown.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:31:40]: Yeah. And at the end, remember, he was, like, repeating. Remember? He he was in a loop.

Penny Williams [00:31:45]: Yeah. I described it as, like, his he was like a record stuck in a scratch. He just kept repeating the same thing, and he was calmer at that point. Like, physically, he was calmer. He was quieter. Yeah. But he was in that point of meltdown where there's nothing you can do but recover. Yep.

Penny Williams [00:32:02]: It's interesting. I hadn't thought about it in that way. And where Yeah. He ended that loop. So quickly, I'll tell the story because people probably are not following our conversation here. But he he was, I would say, 7 or 8. We had an epic snowstorm, 12 inches, twice in 1 week, which does not happen here. Nobody can function here with that kind of snow.

Penny Williams [00:32:26]: We were snowed in because we lived at the top of a mountain. We had no water. We had no heat. We had a gas fireplace. That was it. And no electricity, and we were stuck there for a week. So we finally got out. We actually went to a birthday party at Chuck E.

Penny Williams [00:32:41]: Cheese because another kid had had an invitation go out, like, 2 weeks before, and I was like, oh, yes. Let him do something. Because it's pretty boring in the house when you have no electricity for a week. Right? Like, it's not fun. It gets old.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:32:54]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:32:54]: And so we did that, and everything was great. He had a great time. He was able to participate. You know? He just wasn't struggling with that, and then we decided that we wanted to go out to dinner, but we still had about a it was, like, 4 o'clock in the afternoon. It wasn't dinner time. But we had literally been boiling snow to cook on our on our gas cooktop for this week and whatever we could find that we had around in the house. And so I was like, somebody else needs to cook a meal, and it needs to be tasty. And that's what I wanted to do.

Penny Williams [00:33:27]: So I was like, well, let's just pop it in the Goodwill store in between into the thrift store because I wanted to find some picture frames to paint. Thinking this would be totally innocuous. We had done Chuck E. Cheese. He got fun stuff there. We had gone to Target. He spent his allowance. He got a LEGO set.

Penny Williams [00:33:42]: Like, he had gotten a lot of stuff, so I did not see this issue coming. And on the way into the store as we're walking in, I said, you already got a toy. You've already had lots of candy. If you wanna get a book here, you can each get a book. And they were excited about that. He went and he got a book. And I was just, like, standing in an aisle waiting for everyone to, like, come so we could leave, just randomly in a spot, and there happened to

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:34:07]: be a

Penny Williams [00:34:08]: broken remote control car on the shelf next to where I was standing. And he decided he would want that book. He wanted this remote control car, and he was fixated on the remote control car. It's only a dollar. I'm like, but it doesn't work. Right? Because I just wanna be rational and practical. And I'd already said, you get a book, you don't get a toy, but it's only a dollar. And, look, I can make it roll, and he's in the floor, you know, rolling the car, and it's wobbling.

Penny Williams [00:34:34]: I'm like, no. We have to stick to what I said. I made a lot of mistakes. This was early on. We gotta stick to what I said. You can have a book or nothing. And he starts having a meltdown because all he can think about now is that stinking toy car that doesn't even work. And all I can think about is, I'm not gonna give in, because if I do, it's gonna keep happening.

Penny Williams [00:34:55]: And it was full meltdown in the floor, hanging from my coattails, trying to prevent me from walking out, finally got out the door. He kept pushing and shoving and punching me, and I was trying to just get to the car. And my husband and my daughter were already in the car because they were like, oh, no. Public display of madness. We're out of here, and mom can deal with it. And so it took a long time to get him in the car, and we finally get him in the car. And he's sort of screaming and kicking and screaming and kicking, and then it just, like the temperature goes way down, and he just keeps repeating, I want the book. I want the book.

Penny Williams [00:35:33]: I want the book. I swear it was, like, a 100 times the same rhythmic pace, which I now know the rhythm is regulating. Mhmm. And we ended up finally being able to, like, communicate with him and say, hey. Do you want a snack? And he did, and we got him something to drink and a snack. And we just kinda sat at the parking lot for a bit until he recovered. But, like, it's interesting that the loop that he started fixating on was the toy. But in the end, when he was clearly in a verbal loop, it was about the book.

Penny Williams [00:36:04]: Yeah. And I don't know what to make of that, but that's the whole story. I tell that story a lot because it was the turning point in me understanding that not all behavior is willful and chosen.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:36:18]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:36:18]: And I didn't know that before that moment. But, clearly, when he was just repeating that phrase, it was so clear that he wasn't in control. Like, my husband and I grabbed each other's hands, and we both cried. My husband never cries. Like, it was just clear that, like, all of the struggles this kid is having, he can't help. Yeah. And we don't know how to help yet either. So that is our loop.

Penny Williams [00:36:45]: I never thought about it that way. Yeah. Hard stuff, man. Hard stuff.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:36:49]: But I think it's important what you said. Mhmm. Like, he couldn't help it. Also, it was regulating for him.

Penny Williams [00:36:58]: That piece of it. Yeah.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:36:59]: Right? Because it's rhythmic.

Penny Williams [00:37:00]: Mhmm.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:37:00]: Right? It's rhythmic. And so, yeah, it's it's such a complicated people are so complex.

Penny Williams [00:37:08]: Goodness. So complex. So complicated. I know. And, like, it's the hand you're dealt, and you have to accept it. And that helped with that piece too. I think that experience, we learned a lot in that 30 minutes. It was literally a turning point.

Penny Williams [00:37:26]: There's still a lot to learn, and lots of different things were gonna come out of the woodwork and other struggles and stuff, but, like, that was the point at which we could let go of that sort of societal understanding of ADHD and behavior. Yeah. Even though I didn't know nearly what I know about behavior now, it was the point at which I was like, okay. My kid cannot control what just happened.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:37:50]: Yep.

Penny Williams [00:37:50]: And then after he's completely calm, there's a long period of kind of silence where he's just numb, and then he starts apologizing

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:38:00]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:38:00]: And crying. Right? And then you're for sure you know that it wasn't intentional. Oh. It wasn't a chosen behavior.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:38:09]: None of it.

Penny Williams [00:38:09]: Yeah. None of it. He didn't have the skills yet. Yeah. His nervous system was triggered, you know, all of the things. I was very inflexible even though I wanted him to be flexible. Right? Like, you you know, there were certain I don't wanna say mistakes because I know better, and I don't want other parents listening to call them mistakes for themselves, but there were things that, in hindsight, I could have done differently that probably would have been more helpful. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:38:36]: And they're not necessarily just giving in and saying, okay, and buying the toy. Clearly, that would have been the easiest thing. And now every time I tell this story, I'm like,

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:38:45]: it's only a freaking dollar. Like, why didn't you just pay the dollar and let him have it?

Penny Williams [00:38:51]: Let him win that 1. Right? But had to learn those lessons.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:38:56]: My friend Monica Werner always says, show me a kid who's stuck, and I'll show you an adult who's equally stuck.

Penny Williams [00:39:02]: Yeah. It's on the same sort of lines as Ross Greene's, which is you show me an inflexible kid, I'll show you an equally inflexible adult.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:39:09]: Right? Exactly.

Penny Williams [00:39:10]: Exactly. A lot about how we expect flexibility in kids, but we do it very rigidly. We're completely inflexible about asking for flexibility. Makes so much sense. Right? No. He's

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:39:23]: spot on. He is spot on.

Penny Williams [00:39:25]: Yes. Well, we are out of time. We are. But I really appreciate this conversation because I did not know about getting stuck in a loop. We had actually had a question from 1 of the members in our membership about a certain situation, and Sarah replies and says, oh, stuck in a loop, and explains it. I'm like, wait a minute. That's brand new information for me. We should talk about this on a podcast, and that's why we're here.

Penny Williams [00:39:51]: But, yeah, like, we always are learning more things, and I think this is really valuable stuff for the parents or even educators who are listening. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for sharing your wisdom with us again. Mostly. I do want everyone listening to know too. Go to parentingadhdandautism.com/273 for episode 273. I will have links there to Sarah's website and social media and all that good stuff so that you can learn more from her as you go forward with your kiddo.

Penny Williams [00:40:23]: Thank you.

Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. [00:40:24]: Yeah. Thanks for the conversation.

Penny Williams [00:40:26]: Always fun. I will see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:40:32]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandaustism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.