Rebecca Rolland 0:03

If we can actually start with really getting specific with kids about, well, what is the challenge? Or what is the excitement or what is, you know the situation, we're really in a much better position to support them. And we're also which we don't always see is we're also modeling that for that. So they're able to start that reflective listening with others as well.

Penny Williams 0:24

Welcome to the beautifully complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started.

Welcome back to the beautifully complex Podcast. I'm really excited today to be joined by Rebecca Rolland, who is going to talk to us about the art of talking to children. And I'm really excited for the wisdom that she is going to share with us on this episode, I know it's going to be so helpful to all of you who are listening, both parents and educators and even professionals. Thank you for being here. Rebecca, do you want to start by letting us know who you are and what you do?

Rebecca Rolland 1:19

Sure. Thanks. So thanks for having me. So yes, I'm a speech pathologist, and also the mother of two children, ages five and 10. And I also teach educational assessment at Harvard, and I teach at Harvard Medical School as well. So I've been a clinician for many years working with kids all the way from toddlers, through young adults. And I really sort of toggle back and forth between my clinical life and my parenting life and my own work.

Penny Williams 1:45

It's interesting how it all sort of plays off of each other, right? And, we learned so much by doing by being the parent, and can really weave that into our work. I love the book that you have out now the art of talking with children, the subtitle, the simple keys to nurturing kindness, creativity, and confidence in kids, I find that those things are so important overall, to the success of our kids. That confidence piece especially helps them to be able to take risks and to feel good about themselves so that they can too well.

Rebecca Rolland 2:25

For sure, definitely. And I actually, in writing this book, it was really a journey to think about, not only what was so important and children's thriving, and I think confidence is so important, but even kind of what can we do as parents and educators to support kids with those.

Penny Williams 2:40

And looking at that creativity piece, I think is super valuable for neurodivergent kids, because they often are more creative thinkers, they do things in a different way that isn't always linear, right? And so nurturing that creativity is really important.

Rebecca Rolland 3:00

Definitely, yes. And I think even nurturing it for one is so important. I think every day and especially for neurodivergent. Kids, I think helping them recognize their own creativity and their own gifts kind of on a daily basis is so important when they don't always get that feedback.

Penny Williams 3:15

Should we start with talking about maybe foundational principles of talking with children?

Rebecca Rolland 3:22

Sure, definitely. So I really, in my book, lay out a few major principles with talking to children, I use the term rich talk, which is really about how do we jumpstart conversations with kids that are meaningful, but also fun and exciting for us. And one thing I've really focused on, especially recently, is the importance of reflective and active listening. Because I think so often we think so much about what we say what words we use, but we don't always do so much with the back and forth of actually, how does listening sound both from ourselves as parents, but then also, how do we help kids listen actively? And I think that's so important as well.

Penny Williams 4:03

And the language that we use really matters too when we're talking to our kids in that reflection of teaching them kindness, creativity and confidence. Right? Yeah. What we say to them is often the little voice in their head, and it's so super important. So do you want to tell us a little bit about what is reflective listening and what is active listening?

Rebecca Rolland 4:25

So reflective listening is really that sense of kind of being a mirror for kids. So you're actually helping them kind of hear the way they're processing things, making sure that they feel actually heard. So I go back a little bit to this rich talk idea. And I lay out kind of the ABCs I call it a rich talk. And I think that is equally true in terms of the listening and the first is just is a stands for adaptive, meaning that we really are adapting to the situation with our child so on a daily basis with their mood, the current situation or context, but also longer term, with their temperament with what has been working for them in the past, but really always thinking about adjusting to kind of move with the flow as they evolve. So that's the first the A, and then B is a back and forth. So I think being reflective listening or active listeners, we really want to think about balancing talk and silence for both of us. So making sure that kids have kind of an equal or even sometimes greater chance to speak, rather than having us be the ones who are coming, with a lecturer with a point to make, and seems really being child driven. So standing for this idea that we want to start with where our kids are coming from, that doesn't mean being permissive parents or you know, letting kids do whatever. But really starting with what's either exciting to them or worrisome to them are on their minds, and recognizing that by doing so, we really are promoting their abilities to learn better, because they'll be more motivated. They're more interested, because they already kind of were starting with their own starting points.

Penny Williams 6:09

We talk a lot about child driven on this podcast and the work that I do, it's so important, because I think that goes back to your former point that it makes kids feel seen and heard and valued, right. And that buy in that you're talking about is so crucial, but also, the interest, especially kids with ADHD, where their brain really fires with interest, right, that makes things more doable. And so it's really, really valuable. I think a lot of parents get sort of tied up in knots at the thought of letting your kid guide. But like you said, we're providing boundaries. And we're there to facilitate and to lead in some ways, but it's really important that we honor who they are and what they need.

Rebecca Rolland 6:54

And I think that that is so important to sort of see kids authentically. And that does start with being child driven in the sense of starting with their interest with even what's on their mind and recognizing Yeah, some people have said, Well, does that mean, letting kids do whatever they want? Or have whatever they want? You know, and it really has very little to do with that, you can still have the child not getting what they want. But just starting from like, well, what is it that they want to actually understanding that I think is so important, and we often kind of move past that in the interest of, moving forward with the conversation.

Penny Williams 7:26

What else do we need to know about adaptive and reflective listening?

Rebecca Rolland 7:32

So I would say one thing is really to think about, Are we understanding what kids are really trying to tell us? And if not, what kind of questions or comments can we make in order to understand and recognizing that this kind of ability to like, let's see if we can understand what this person really wants, who's in front of us, whatever the child wants in front of us, it really is a form of being able to empathize with that. So if we can actually understand well, what is it that you, that's really hard for you at this moment, if your child is struggling with a learning situation, what is it about reading? That makes it feel terrible? You know, what is it about, this social situation, that's really hard for you, if we can actually start with really getting specific with kids about what is the challenge? Or what is the excitement? Or what is, the situation, we're really in a much better position to support them? Yeah, we're also which we don't always see is we're also modeling that for that. So they're able to start that reflective listening with others as well.

Penny Williams 8:35

Which makes I think their interactions with others are much more effective. Exactly. And, kids who are developmentally delayed in skills like these, it's really important that we are modeling that and that we're helping them to build those skills.

Rebecca Rolland 8:49

I think especially so the skills obviously build as children grow. But I think recognizing that we're all on a spectrum in terms of, our own strengths, and our challenges, even as adults. And so being reflective even about that, times when we thought one thing about a person, and we weren't exactly correct, anything like that can really support kids in realizing that, yes, we're all growing in these areas. And so nobody's perfect, which I think is really important to hear.

Penny Williams 9:17

It's so important. I think even more so for kids who have challenges. But yeah, I think we have to be imperfect for our kids. So they're okay with being imperfect too, so they don't think that they're bad or broken.

Rebecca Rolland 9:30

I think so often, we just hear that, kids think, well, my parents or my teacher or whatever, they have all the answers. And sometimes it can be scary. I think especially talking with other parents, to say to a child, oh, I don't have all the answers or Oh, I did this thing that I realized I shouldn't have done but I think to be able to be open about that and vulnerable about that is just so important, especially for kids with challenges because they can otherwise kind of beat themselves up against this impossible standard. If They feel like, well, all these people around me have it together. And I don't, can miss the fact that lots of other people and everyone is struggling with something. So I do think that modeling is really critical.

Penny Williams 10:11

Absolutely. You talk to them about building resilience as well, in the way that we talk to children. Do you want to talk a little bit about how that works, how we're helping them to become more resilient in the way that we interact and speak with them?

Rebecca Rolland 10:27

Definitely. And I think that similarly, I want to start with this idea of modeling as well, because I think no matter how much we talk, if our actions suggest that, we, in our own lives don't want to approach challenges, or really struggle with failing, they're going to see that as well. So I think, before we even sort of give lectures about why it's important to bounce back from challenges or anything like that, it's really critical that they see us working through our own challenges. That doesn't mean always succeeding at them. It really does also mean setting up things for ourselves and talking through times when, this was hard, but I pushed through or, or even times, when, I realized this wasn't a goal that I necessarily wanted to have. And so I think for children as well to help them realize the boundary between, this is a goal that I want, and I'm going to keep trying versus when is this starting to become counterproductive for me?

And when can I actually switch to another topic to another goal, or just think that, this goal doesn't have to be set in stone. So I've seen a lot of kids to kind of get hung up on, this idea of grit and, feeling like, well, I set this goal for myself, and I have to do it no matter what, even if it becomes clear, even to them that this isn't really a goal, that they're ready for something that is kind of out of bounds for them for whatever reason. So I do think actually talking with them about noticing signs when you know, they're doing something that's still pleasurable, even if they're not succeeding, versus is this something that has started to feel like a slog or starting to feel like something that's, often too challenging for them. And that really, is different for every child and different at every stage. So keeping it open and kind of saying, well, maybe this is too challenging right now. But we can revisit it, in a month or two months or something like that, that it may not feel the same way. So I think having that kind of evolving back and forth can really help kids with that.

Penny Williams 12:24

You say that rich talk recognizes that kids are more resilient, healthier, and more successful, when they have at least one adult they're deeply connected to. I love that I love that you call attention to that, because connection with others, is how our bodies feel settled and calm.

Rebecca Rolland 12:45

Exactly. And I think especially when kids are struggling to bounce back from something if they have someone they can speak their worries to or just talk it out with, they are so much more likely to feel like okay, I'm still okay, fundamentally, there's nothing wrong with me, it's just, I might be struggling in this moment have been really helped put things in perspective.

Penny Williams 13:05

And you say that rich talk helps kids, parents, teachers have stronger relationships. Do you want to tell us a little more about that? How is that connection made?

Rebecca Rolland 13:18

So I think this idea of rich talk, so when you're adaptive, and you're having this back and forth, and when your child driven, This really creates what I call a double promise. So meaning that there kind of two things going on. And the first thing is that in the moment, you really are strengthening your relationships, because you are being more responsive to kids, you are actually supporting this very intimate kind of back and forth where they feel heard you feel more heard. And that really lets you enjoy yourselves and enjoy the children more in the moment. So rather than feeling as if you're missing each other, you're arguing and you're not even on the same page, you're even able to get on the more, is more same page being more in sync with a child. So that's kind of the first promise about in the moment. And then the second promise is really over time, the fact that these kind of interactions really do accumulate, so it might you know, you're not going to build resiliency or confidence or anything like that in a moment or a conversation, obviously not. But um, the idea is that over time as you build this foundation, and it's really a trusting, secure foundation, children are going to be developing these skills through that kind of back and forth. So you don't necessarily see that happening. But I think as you go through the process, there's so much research and so much kind of evidence out there that these kinds of interactions over time do build those skills to0.

Penny Williams 14:50

And how does a stronger relationship with our child translate into other things day to day activities, their confidence or reillience? You know, it impacts a lot, right?

Rebecca Rolland 15:02

So yes, having that kind of stronger foundation really does allow kids to do so much more. So you can think about it almost as if they have this solid base, really thinking about attachments, and so on, so that they're able to go out, for example, and take more risks than they might have otherwise, because they know that, well, when I come back, even if it didn't work out, I have this person who loves me unconditionally, who understands me, who was able to process this with me. And so it doesn't have to feel so scary. So they can start to take these kinds of challenges on that they might not have done before, and even be encouraged to try things they haven't thought of, in part because they know they have the solid base. Same goes for a lot of these other relationships. So if you can establish a really empathetic relationship with a child, show that you understand, for example, learning differences, when they're going through how something might be impacting them, they're able to translate that not only to their own self talk in terms of how they're thinking about themselves, but even to the talk they're having with peers, with other friends who might be having other challenges, they're able to bring a more empathetic perspective to them. So it's almost as if you're teaching these skills in the moment on a one on one relationship, but then they're actually able to bring them out into the world. And I think that's what's so powerful about rich talk.

Penny Williams 16:24

Can you give us an example of how a parent can show empathy to a child? What would they say?

Rebecca Rolland 16:31

Yeah, for example, I would say, let's say a child is feeling like they're having trouble reading, for example. And so they're saying, I hate reading, it's so boring, I'm not smart. Nobody likes me this kind of like catastrophizing language. And so I think what I would want to be able to do is to really First sit and be specific. So actually, a lot of times we want to push those feelings away, when we say kind of the opposite, like, oh, no, you're very smart, or Oh, you're reading it's fine, or something like that. But in doing so, we often do kind of invalidate that feeling, which may be for them a really real feeling, that this is not going well, or I'm having a lot of trouble. So to be able to actually validate the fact that okay, this does feel really hard for you, and then let's see, let's sit together and understand why, and then what we can do about it. So we think about empathy, not just as feeling what another person's feeling, but there's actually another kind of empathy called compassionate empathy and taking Compassion Action, meaning that once we feel what another person's feeling, we can help work with them to think about, well, what action can we take as a result? And so actually thinking with a child, okay, this part is hard for you, let's actually get a handle on this, rather specific, it doesn't mean, you're stupid, it doesn't mean you can't do this.

But let's just actually see kind of in an objective way, what, let's explore together, what is it? That's difficult? And then let's see, well, what is also true? So for example, okay, this may be really hard for you to read these words, but what about reading is still going well, for you, and to recognize that there's always a spectrum, even within things that are hard. So for example, like, Well, maybe you really love storytelling. So if someone tells you the story, you can really understand well, what's happening, or you love to write about, what you read, so you'd like to explore it, in a different way. And then to think about, well, what action can you take as a result, like, this is difficult. So rather than just sit and say, well, it's difficult, I feel bad about myself, how can we think together or even work with a teacher about strategies to actually improve what's difficult for you? So I think that the child then sees you're on the journey with them. So you recognize it, okay, this does feel hard, even whether you're good or bad about you know, at it, it still feels difficult. So what can we do to help you feel better about it, and for it to go better?

Penny Williams 19:03

That really sets up a collaborative relationship, that feeling that sense of value again, and you know, a lot of these things just make kids feel better about themselves and valued, which is really powerful stuff.

Rebecca Rolland 19:17

Definitely. And I think to to recognize that my parent, or my caregiver, whoever, they understand that I feel this is hard. I think that is so powerful, because oftentimes kids do feel as though Well, I'm all alone in this, I'm struggling, and no one really sees how hard it is. And I think to be able to sit and see that with a child is just so powerful in itself.

Penny Williams 19:39

And we can be so dismissive as parents, we can really take our own feelings about what's happening, and put that into the mix in a way that makes our kids feel misunderstood. And like we don't get it and I think that's really crucial when we're talking about it. neurodiverse Don't population, these kids get those messages so often. And we have to work so hard to really counteract that to balance that and say, okay, you're not acting like a baby, which I think is what would be a really instinctual, maybe response if a child seems to be, having bigger emotions than maybe their age would call for. But we have to remember that we're talking about developmentally delayed kids. And so, if we say, Oh, you're acting like a baby, you just need to get over it. Versus wow, I see how hard this is for you. What can we do? You know, two totally different tones, two totally different ways. One's gonna make a kid feel worse, and one's gonna make a kid feel better, right?

Rebecca Rolland 20:51

Definitely. So I think sometimes it can really be helpful to just to put ourselves in their mindset to say, for example, we'll school to them. It's like their world. It's like, if we were at work, and someone said to us, like, why can't you do this thing? You know, and they kept saying to us, why can't you do this thing? You know, we would feel really bad. Or we could feel really bad about that. And, and so to recognize that for them, this could feel like a really big deal, even if for us, oh, why does it matter? You know, oh, we'll just get over it or something like that. So I do think that's so important to kind of really think through how this is feeling to them.

Penny Williams 21:25

The other piece of this, too, that we should talk about is the fact that you can't have these really meaningful conversations, the act of listening to reflective listening, back and forth, when kids are already triggered. And they're feeling really out of whack. So if they're really dysregulated, it's not the time because their thinking brain is offline, and we can't problem solve. And it's a conversation that I've had with my own son, when he was younger, pretty frequently, your thinking brain is offline, I want to help you solve this problem. But we just can't do it right now until we're calmer. So I just sort of bring that to the forefront to that, what you're talking about in these conversations, and especially having any back and forth is really, when kids haven't sort of gone to this place where they're flooded by their emotional brain survival brain in their thinking brain is awful. And we have to wait. If we've gotten to that point.

Rebecca Rolland 22:26

Definitely. I think it's that's such a great point. And I've seen that also, because so many parents and educators have asked me, well, how can you have these conversations when a child is having a tantrum, how can and I was like, Well, you just, you can't, like, that's you can do other things to support them from, having a tantrum or to help them in a tantrum, but rich talk and really reflective thinking like, this is not going to happen in the moment of a tantrum. And I think we can get so frustrated whether our child is having an actual tantrum, or just, really emotionally dysregulated. If we do think, well, why can't I make this conversation happen? Why can't they talk it out? Because they really can't talk it out in that moment. I think it's also same goes for, if they are dysregulated, for other reasons, I know, when my son gets really exhausted and overexcited, or something like that, it's similar in the sense that it's really hard to then say, Okay, well, let's sit and have a very reflective conversation, it's often that something else needs to happen first.

Penny Williams 23:22

I was the great rationalizer with my own son, and I never could understand for the longest time until I understood the way his brain was working, why it never worked. Why couldn't I just talk him out of it? Why can I just, calm him down and make him see my way, right, which is really what that's doing. The so really understanding that their biology is playing a role in their availability to really have these type of conversations and rich talk is valuable, especially I think, for parents of neurodivergent kids, because a lot of times our kids are more triggered, they're more sensitive, their nervous systems are activated more easily. So it's really important to remember that I have so many parents who say, Well, I tried empathy, it doesn't work. I tried giving him a regulation strategy. I tried telling him to breathe. And it's always it was at the wrong time. Right. Like it's a good strategy, but it also has to be at the right time, or it's not effective.

Rebecca Rolland 24:26

It's funny, because I've often worked with parents where we can do some of the teaching of strategies, and then we'll call more times and then hoping that in the times that are less calm, there's some ability maybe to apply them but there's definitely not Yeah, not the same sense of we can't start teaching new things. When a child is at that point, for sure.

Penny Williams 24:45

And they just can't process it. Like even when I would try to rationalize he wasn't hearing me. All I was doing is making more and more and more overwhelmed.

Rebecca Rolland 24:54

It's funny because you think about kids. Hearing you talk when they're dysregulated. It really does often seem kind of like, it's just noise to them. So it's almost like the more we're seeing, like more noise. So, yeah, I think that's why it's so important to kind of slow things down when kids are in that point.

Penny Williams 25:09

For sure. I want to make sure that we talk just a little bit about nurturing kindness as well. This is something that I find super important in the world today. And I want to talk a little bit about your insights or strategies on helping to build that within our kids.

Rebecca Rolland 25:26

So I do think that is so critical today, and that we don't always think about it as in development. So we often talk about kids and kind of labeling them as like, Oh, my child is so you know, has such an easy time being kind to others, or vice versa. My child, is really struggles to be kind. But we don't always think about it in terms of our conversations, and actually, the back and forth of really helping kids reflect on concrete times. So rather than lecturing them really starting with things, whether or not we noticed something that they did kind of without being asked that was really kind and commenting on that, or really talking through times when they're struggling with a friend situation with, a teacher situation, or something in sports, where someone is being unkind and talk through, what actually is going on? And what can be done in that situation.

And I talked about what I call storytelling conversations, which is kind of a way of thinking through an empathizing when someone hasn't been kind. And really, the way it works is just actually thinking through with kids say, you see someone at the grocery store who was really snide, or kind of made some negative comments, you didn't even know them really kind of thinking through with kids. Well, what are all the reasons that this person could have said that unkind thing or could have been unkind? And helping kids actually expand their reasoning behind just Oh, their quote unquote, mean person? You know, what, what could have happened in their life today? Or in general? What could they be going through, to have said something like that? And, to really feel as though we can expand our stories of people beyond just labeling them from one incident, to thinking through kind of empathetically, what their situations might be, can be so important in helping kids get away from kind of black and white thinking of like, nice people are nice kids and the mean kids.

Penny Williams 27:18

And that's such a common thing. And our neurodivergent population is black and white thinking, Yes, seem very, very literal, right. And that can be so tough. Sometimes. I love that you come at it in that way to help really break that sort of barrier down, which is really amazing. The last thing that we wanted to be sure that we touch on is strategies to help kids embrace learning differences.

Rebecca Rolland 27:46

So yes, I think, for me, that's one of the critical things. And I think it there's a whole chapter in my book about openness to difference. And I really emphasize this idea that it goes far beyond saying, I'm going to tolerate people who are different from me, and really goes to the sense of well, how can we actually see difference as a celebration as something we can learn from and as a positive? So something where we actually take children through that process of, let's not just say, Okay, well, I'm okay with the fact that these people are different from me. And you know, that's better than being hateful. But it's far better if we can actually say, Well, this is actually a positive thing in our family, in our classroom, in our society, that we have these differences. So starting from that point, I think is so important to help kids see that, we don't want everyone to be the same. So it's actually a good thing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the starting point, I think. And I really talked about actually seeing that we're all different from everyone else, in some ways. So it's a much better, to recognize kind of our own differences, rather than to say, Okay, well, he is like this, and I'm typical. And she or he is not typical, there's, we're all on the spectrum of something somewhere. So I think to recognize that as well. It's really important.

Penny Williams 29:06

It's so important. And it makes our kids feel like they have a place, you know that they belong, because everybody has something different and we should embrace it and celebrate it. I love that. So I think that we are at a point at the end, where it's time to talk about taking action, what action can parents take to start out on this path of adopting rich talk with their children's something that they can go from listening to this episode, and then taking some quick action?

Rebecca Rolland 29:42

Yes. So I think the first thing I would suggest starting with is to recognize this doesn't have to be any kind of major shift in your communication. So you can start with something like just taking five or 10 minutes a couple of times a day to really sit with your child or children. And, and check in with that. So start by just I sometimes I even suggest starting with just some silence when you're doing something kind of meditative or quiet like cooking or, you know mowing the lawn together or taking a walk and seeing what comes up from your child. So rather than starting with, lots of probing questions or things like that, just allowing there to be a bit of silence while you're doing that, and seeing what your child has to say.

And then actually following the train of that thought, so actually putting aside for just five or 10 minutes, an agenda or some kind of point you want to make or somewhere you want to get, and just really following whatever it is, that's on their mind and thinking about that balance of talk in silence. So actually contributing something but then waiting and seeing well, what are they going to say to that? And what are you going to say to that, and just trying that process for a few minutes, you might find that your child is pretty quiet, which is totally fine. Or you might find that your child talks a lot. And whichever way it is starting that as a practice is something that can really help kids feel heard, even if it's just for small portions of the day. And that can be really a great foundation for this more generally.

Penny Williams 31:11

And it's very doable. You know, this is stuff that you can integrate into your day to day life. We're not asking you to take a bunch of timeout and find time to do this. And, it's something that really can just be part of what you're already doing. Exactly. Yeah. So we're at the end of our time together, I want to let everyone know who's listening, that they can find the show notes for this episode at parentingADHDandautism.com/185 for episode 185. There we will have a link to Rebecca's book, The Art of talking to children, as well as her website and social media. And I definitely encourage you to check those things out and to learn more from her expertise. And I know it'll benefit you and your child. Thanks again, Rebecca, so much for being here and sharing some of your wisdom and helping the parents out there who are listening.

Rebecca Rolland 32:12

Thanks so much for having me,

Penny Williams 32:13

And I will see everyone next time. Thanks for joining me on the beautifully complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com

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