Deborah Ann Davis (00:03): You have to choose to say, I am lucky that this kid's blowing up right now, because otherwise I may not have recognize the magnitude of what this conversation or situation is to them. Choose to look at it that way. And once you do their explosions and their moods and all that becomes diagnostic tools for the moms.

Penny Williams (00:28): Welcome to the Parenting ADHD Podcast, where I share insights and strategies on raising kids with ADHD, straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, ADHD-aholic and Mindset Mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

New Speaker (00:57): Welcome back to the parenting ADHD podcast. I'm really excited in this episode, we'll be talking to Deborah Ann Davis, and we're going to talk about the superpower of choice, and she is the author of how to keep your daughter from slamming the door. I love that book title. It's amazing. Why don't you start by introducing yourself? Let everyone know who you are and what you do.

Deborah Ann Davis (01:24): Hi, my name's Deborah Ann Davis. I go by Deborah and I am a parenting coach and a life coach. I have been a career teacher of 27 years for students who are in high school and middle school. And I'm a bonafide science geek. And I started writing towards the end of my teaching career when I had a temporarily stopped cause I had contracted Lyme disease and I had to stop teaching and the Lyme disease affected my heart and my brain and everything else. But those two majorly, like my heart rate gets down to 37 beats a minute. And in my early forties, I wasn't able to go up a flight of stairs without stopping in the middle to rest. So that was very humbling. And then my brain, my attention was so shattered that I couldn't watch a half hour TV show cause I couldn't follow the plot, but I could listen to music.

Deborah Ann Davis (02:25): And I listened to the songs that were, you know, three to five minutes long and my mind would generate stories to go along with the music. Like it was the musical score of the story. Then when I got stronger, I started jotting down some of the ideas. And by the time I returned to teaching, I had started writing. I was never on the track for becoming a writer. It was not where I was going. So when I finally ended up here, I looked back on it and I was going, wow, it's a good thing I got that lyme disease diagnosis

Penny Williams (03:00): everything.

Deborah Ann Davis (03:01): Yes. And then I ended up with two YA novels. And when I had those two manuscripts, then I thought I'm going to become a writer. I've got two books here. So I stopped teaching and I jumped into this feet first. And then from there it just changed and changed and changed and answering the call to the fact that I missed teaching. So very much the first thing I did that first year was I held a or the, not that first year, but immediately I held a mother and daughter retreat for moms of teenage daughters. So they could work on their parenting skills and you know, get out of each other's way because let's face it. Their goal is to have a loving, close relationship, even though they may be bumping heads all the time, using some of the skills I had developed over the years of teaching, reading the book and then another book and then another book. So there you go.

Penny Williams (04:03): Nice. And I love how you've taken, what you experienced from teaching to help parents. You know, there's a lot of lessons there, I think in the way kids function and the way kids think that we don't often think about taking that from the classroom over to our parenting. That's a really neat bridge to make there.

Deborah Ann Davis (04:25): Exactly. And the other thing is I talked to people about taking what they call a learning style inventory. It's just basically a quiz of sorts where you go through and you answer these questions. And then the analysis tells you the type of learner that you are the most likely, you know, that with the queen is when you take that kind of a quiz, it says, this is what you do. Good. So if you happen to have a teacher who has the same kind of learning style that you have, then you're all set because we teachers teach in a way that makes sense to us, which is a reflection of the way we learn. If you were in a classroom with a teacher, has a different learning style than you, then you could be at odds with being successful because the things they're asking you to do are not in your wheelhouse. And do you feel inadequate in their eyes because you think that they see you not as smart or not as capable or not as good. So it creates a whole set of problems that don't really need to exist. If you understand that your style is different than their style and different isn't good or bad, it's just different.

Penny Williams (05:40): Yeah. I think that's something that we don't think about as parents. We often view our kids as smaller versions of ourselves and they're not, they're their own independent individual and they need to form what they think and feel about different things. They need to figure out who they are as an individual person, not as a reflection of us. And they don't really teach us that when we become parents, out of the manual.

Deborah Ann Davis (06:12): Yeah.

Penny Williams (06:14): And we try to sort of craft these little people who are a reflection of us and that's not, that's just not the way it shouldn't be. You know, it's just not,

Deborah Ann Davis (06:26): It works well for people when they have the same personality they've got the same night then yes. That does actually work out.

Penny Williams (06:33): Yeah. But that's so rare. I think we think that it should be the majority of the time, but I think it's really rare for our kids to be very, very similar to us. Genetically, maybe, but personality wise, I think there's a variety there. It's not kind of this norm that we think it is.

Deborah Ann Davis (06:54): Well, when you think that people married, people who are, who are dissimilar, people who are different than you are because they fill in your gaps and you fill in their gaps. So if you're going to have two parents with different personality types, then the kids are either going to be a like the mom or be like the dad or C like neither of them. When we get a parent that the child gets along better with one parent over the other, most likely they have a similar personality type. So they approach the world the same way. And they have the same kind of reactions in what the other person does is not surprising to them.

Penny Williams (07:37): Yeah. And that's really key for kids is to know what to expect, to not be surprised. I think a lot of that sort of unwanted behavior that we talk about a lot in the ADHD world as is born of that surprise of not knowing what to expect, if not, you know, then that leads to distrust between a parent and a child. When you're always sort of blindsided by your parents, then you don't feel safe and you don't feel like you can trust what is going to happen. And then they stopped communicating with you and you know, it's this whole spiral that we can get into. So we really need to be able to step back and say, wow, you know, my travel is different from me. And so they're going to go through this world in a different way. And that's okay. Different is totally okay.

Deborah Ann Davis (08:29): Yes. As you said, need to educate yourself on what their differences are and how to support them in their world.

Penny Williams (08:36): Yeah. And that's a lot of the work we do with families with ADHD is you really have to be a detective. You have to dig really deep and understand not only ADHD, you have to understand how that impacts your child. Because two kids with ADHD can be polar opposites. It doesn't look the same. And everyone, and even parents who have ADHD themselves often they'll say, well, this stuff worked for me when I was their age. And I struggled with similar things, but it doesn't work for my child. And that's because you're so different. You know, it's not a one size fits all thing. ADHD is different for everybody. And that distinction is really important for parents to really get who their child is, what their strengths are, what their struggles are and work from that. Not work from our own past experience, our own fears, our own, you know, version of success, all of those things we just have to put aside and really parent the child that we have

Deborah Ann Davis (09:40): Think of it like this. If in the first class, at first grade class, everybody gets chickenpox, right? The kids who are visual learners will handle chickenpox differently than the kids who are kinesthetic learners, who will handle chickenpox differently than the kids who are auditory learners. And the chicken pox has absolutely nothing to do with their learning style. It's just the way they react to things. It's the same thing with ADHD, kids, personality types, their learning styles, and all that business are independent of ADHD. I've seen plenty of things that say, Oh, kinesthetic learners, or have ADHD or that kind of thing. It's not the way it works. So you have to take it and reference it to who your child is. And to do that, clearly the personality quizzes, the learning style inventories, all those things are really helpful for the parents to say, okay, there we go. That's my child.

Penny Williams (10:44): Yeah. It's, it's really important to do all that work. You know, this parenting is a lot more work because we really have to be very mindful day in, day out, moment by moment, who are Ken is where they are. In that moment, what's true for them in that moment and then respond with that information in mind rather than reacting, which I think leads really well into this idea of the super power of choice. I had read something you said there volatile reaction as a red flag that they need help, which nothing could be truer about behavior behaviors, communication. So when we're having these battles with our kids, you talk a lot about the choices that we make as parents and how they affect those outcomes.

Deborah Ann Davis (11:37): So the thing is about that when you have a, a person who is reacting in a way that is what you would perceive negative or hurtful towards you, you can choose how you're going to receive that. If you've got a small person, like a three year old who say, I hate you, you can choose to believe that child hates you, or you can choose to believe that child is at the end of their rope and doesn't know how to cope, which is fairly easy to do when they're three years old. Yeah. But when they're 14 or even 11, and they say, I hate you, it becomes more personal. Like you feel like you're being hated, but it really is the same thing. The kids that just at the end of their rope, they don't have the coping skills. Their brain is not fully formed yet.

Deborah Ann Davis (12:28): So they are not able to reach for a tool in their belt so that they can handle the situation. You get two kinds of reactions. One is over it and one is turned inward. So when the child turns it inward and they inwardly seed, or they go someplace and they think nobody likes me, or they think I'm dumb, or any of those things you don't know about it. But when they blow up, I believe that you should be grateful for that because it lets you know where their boundary is and it lets you know, what they can handle, what they can't handle. And when you know what they can't handle, you have your work cut out for you because now you know what to address and how to help them. And my whole thing is that during this pandemic time where everybody is so worried about everything, our job as parents is to keep the kids calm because they watch us watching the news.

Deborah Ann Davis (13:28): They watch our reactions to it, or they may be watching the news themselves or worse. They may be getting their information from another friend who, you know, converts it to their youthful understanding. So they get themselves anxious about it. And our message to our kids needs to be, look, I'm going to take care of this. I don't know everything that needs to be done right now, but I'm going to find out. So all you have to worry about is what you're doing next. You don't have to worry about what's coming down the pike. And when we make a plan, if they change it, then don't worry because I got your back. I will make sure that what you need will be there for you. And if I don't how to get it, I will find somebody who does. So you don't need to worry. Let it go.

Penny Williams (14:22): Yeah. Letting go is so important for parents and kids. So many times we really get wrapped up and tangled up and things that don't matter as much as we've told ourselves that they do. And that can be really, really helpful. Again, like, you know, taking things personally, as you were talking about, when we can let go of that, it's really freeing. You know, then we can stay calm, then we can address what's happening and, and really help our kids. I read this phrase a few years ago and I use it as my parenting mantra when things get tough, I just start chanting it in my head. But your child isn't giving you a hard time. Your child is having a hard time.

Deborah Ann Davis (15:06): Yes. Yes. I love that sentence. I love that sentence.

Penny Williams (15:10): It's a really good way. If you just take a breath when something is explosive or intense emotionally with your child, if you just take a breath and let that run through your mind, it really helps to focus on responding. Again. We're talking about the difference between reacting and responding.

Deborah Ann Davis (15:31): And we're talking about choice. You choose to respond instead of reacting, you have to choose that path, which means that you have to prepare for it before the explosion, the day before the week before the month, before you have to say, all right, I know that I reacted, my kid does this next time. That happens. I'm going to have this plan in place and this is what I'm going to do. And then you need to tell your kid that that's what you're going to do. Because if you change past midstream like that, they will think that it's something wrong with you.

Penny Williams (16:08): Yeah. So they will call you out.

Deborah Ann Davis (16:11): They will say, Oh no, mom's, mom's gone off the deep end. So you need to tell them, this is how things are going to be, and I'm doing this because it will make things better for you. And it'll make things better for me. And it'll make us happier and this as long as doing it and I'm going to try it. And if it doesn't work out, I'll pick something else. But I would like to improve the way things are.

Penny Williams (16:34): Yeah. I talked to parents so much about that. Have those conversations. It's so important for your child to know that you want to improve things too, that everybody being intense and angry and maybe avoiding each other and not having pleasant conversations, nobody wants that. No one in the house. Once that we don't set out as parents to, to feel like we need to control our kids, we get a lot of messages from society. That that's what parenting is. But you know, all we really want is a great relationship with them. And we want to help them to find their path to success and happiness,

Deborah Ann Davis (17:18): Be strong in the world so that they don't compromise who they are and they can do it without making everybody around them uncomfortable.

Penny Williams (17:28): Yeah. Yeah. And, and again, that choice. And I think, you know, when we, as parents decide to mindfully, choose how we respond. We are modeling that for our kids, we are teaching them to mindfully, choose how they deal with a situation or an emotion. And kids with ADHD really struggle more with that. They struggle more with recognizing kind of the nuance of emotion, all of those different variances of angry or variances of sad or happy. And they really need that extra sort of guidance on what those feelings translate to your what's an appropriate way to communicate to someone that you're really frustrated with them or that they're really not hearing you. You know? And, and a lot of times it's this primal reaction of anger or aggression. And then as parents, we're like, Whoa, you know, this is unacceptable. And just like you said, that's your red flag, right? That's the red flag that says, okay, something is going on here. And it's not my kid trying to make my life miserable. What is it? You know, you're making that

Deborah Ann Davis (18:50): Right. You have to choose to say, I am lucky that this kid's blowing up right now because otherwise I may not have recognized the magnitude of what this conversation or situation is to them, choose to look at it that way. And once you do their explosions and their moods and all that become diagnostic tools for the moms.

Penny Williams (19:13): Yeah. I liked that. I hadn't thought about it that way, but it's true. It's like, it's, it's clues, it's leaving clues for you to figure out a better way. You know, you may not know a better way to deal with something in that moment. You know, you should stay calm. You know, you want to try to help your child calm, but you may not know what to do, but all of these things are clues as to what to do. You know, if you were like for my own son, if I push him to talk to me about something that I, you know, I know something's wrong, I know something's eating at him. And he is not a talker about things. He's, I'm one to stuff them down and not want to deal with them, which we're working on. But you know, for me, I just want to help him right then to feel better. And for him, it's too much pressure and he needs time and space. And so when he explodes at me, because I'm asking him again, just to tell me what's going on, that's a clue. You know, I need to be looking at that as a clue. I need to choose to look at it as

Deborah Ann Davis (20:25): Well. If I may, you already know that he doesn't handle those questions. Well, so part of what it is that I'm hearing you say is manifestation of your feeling helpless about helping him, how to approach it. And so you get your, you increase your intensity with it, trying to make yourself feel better. And that's something to let go. People come and talk to you when he needs to. And the thing you can choose to say is, you know what? I understand that you don't want to discuss this. I also understand that there's something going on right now. I want you to know that I am here for you. And if you want to share this with me, I will help you because we're on the same team. We're on the same side. And I love you. I'm big on me. I love you so easy.

Deborah Ann Davis (21:24): Other thing, I just want to remind people who are listening to this and saying, I did try that once. You know, that kind of stuff there, the way we react to things comes from years and years and years and years of history. So you can think of that as the habit that you've established, you know, over time, if you want to change the way you're doing that, you basically have to create a new habit. And when I was a kid, they said, Oh, you can create a new habit in seven days. That's not true. And then as a young adult, they said, Oh, create a new habit in 21 days. That's not true. And new habit takes however long a new habit is going to take. So it may take you six months. It may take you a year, but the point is, if you're going to be successful at it, that it has to be in the forefront.

Deborah Ann Davis (22:18): So I do things like for me, I post sticky notes around the house, like on the mirror, in the bathroom and on their refrigerator to remind me of what it is that I want to do. So if like when I decided that I was going to calm my life a little bit, I was so used to running on high octane that I didn't know how to do that. You know, I, I sat down and thought, okay, let's make calm thoughts for a little while, which was fine because I was interrupting my usual flow that I didn't know what I was doing. And I thought, okay, I did that. And then I, I left that. I didn't do it again for like a year. So when I decided I was going to do that again, I put some reminders up there. So I would see it.

Deborah Ann Davis (23:06): And it say to me, remember that you were going to sit quietly for five minutes and let your mind go wherever it wants to go. And don't chase it down until you can get yourself relaxed. I had to remind myself to do it because it wasn't part of my norm. So if you, if you're trying to change the way you're interacting with your kids, put a little posted up a little reminder that says something generic. Like I love my child no matter what comes or, Oh, here's one that I like, not only would I die for my child, but I would change for my child. I love that. So you can put that up on the frigerator and you can put it up on the bedroom door. You can put it on your bathroom mirror. And when you find yourself in an argument with your child, when you leave out that room, you'll encounter that sticky note.

Deborah Ann Davis (24:07): And I'll remind you that, of all the stuff we're talking about here, that this is a flag that your child is not handling something. And you want to be in your child's corner. And it'll prompt you to turn around and go back and say to your child, I want to be in your corner. And when you can talk to me, I'm here for you. That kind of thing. Yeah. So important. You just got to understand that this is not an overnight decision. This is something that you tell the child that you're going to be working on. And then you work on it. You say, and here's a big suggestion. I have, especially for people who have kids who explode emotionally. And that is to say, look, when you're upset, I can't hear your message. I get too distracted by your tone of voice and your gesturing and, and your basically your anger.

Deborah Ann Davis (24:59): So this is what I'm going to do. When you're upset, I'm going to step away. I am stepping away in love and I will be back there. The second you want to talk about it, or the second that you've calmed down and you can tell me that you don't want to talk about it. I will be right back there. So I'm stepping away. Now I will be checking back on you in a couple of minutes. I love you and then step away. And then that distance will interrupt that escalation that was going on. Or if you don't get to that point yet, and there's mutual storming out of the room, you see the little sticky note that reminds you that that was what your goal is. And here is something that is so important. You can not chastise yourself for not getting it right that time.

Deborah Ann Davis (25:51): Yes. Every reminder, every time you think about it is a, another notch on the, on, on your belt, towards your goal. The studies that they've done on forming new habits, show that if you try today and you try tomorrow and you forget the next day, and you forget the day after that. And the day after that, the day after that, and then you try again, you are still building towards that habit. It's not like, Oh, I didn't do it. And I'm giving up. It counts my starting last year and starting this year, all counts because in the back of your mind and your brain, you're working through all this concept that you want to create this new habit, which of course is code for new lifestyle. Yeah. And that stuff takes permanent work. I think,

Penny Williams (26:44): You know, when you're working on being mindful of the situation, mindful of where your child is coming from, mindful of responding, instead of reacting and kind all of these things, you really have to work at being able to do that in those really intense emotions, because every one of our brains gets overwhelmed with emotion and stops working cognitively at a certain point. And so that's true, not only for our kids, but for parents, that's like a muscle, you know, if you're working out at the gym, when you stop, it's going to stop making progress really.

Deborah Ann Davis (27:25): But when you go back to the gym, it builds on your prior experience,

Penny Williams (27:29): Right? Yeah. And I talk a lot to parents about not giving up on, on changing behavior, on different strategies there, because it takes a really long time. And we so often, if we don't see results in a few days or a couple of weeks, well, that's not working. I'm going to wash my hands of it. I'm going to try something else. And for kids with ADHD, especially, it takes a lot of consistency, frequency, and time.

Deborah Ann Davis (28:00): And unfortunately it also, with all those words, it also takes variety. Yes. Right?

Penny Williams (28:07): Yeah. Because eventually they don't hear us anymore. If we sound exactly the same every time. So we do have to find new ways to kind of give the same message, especially I think for teens then even tweens, you know, at that point they start bristling against anything that we recommend. And so we really have to start getting creative and finding new ways and finding ways of making it, their idea, which can be really challenging with something.

Deborah Ann Davis (28:35): Well, one of the things that I do for that is I suggest that you don't talk to them about them. You get something like a magazine article or something you see online or whatever, and you show it to them and you say, how do you think your best friend would react to that?

Penny Williams (28:52): Yeah. Yeah. And we use that kind of thing to you to help with social skills and emotional recognition and regulation, you know, look at this character in this book that you really like, they just had something really hard happen to them. What kind of emotions do you think they felt, or do you think the way they reacted was a, was a good choice or,

Deborah Ann Davis (29:15): Or how about also you could add into that, you know, that problem that we had last week, how do you think they would handle it?

Penny Williams (29:23): Mm, yeah. Yeah. There's so much opportunity. And you know, we, we rally against our kids spending so much time in screens, but there's a lot that can be learned from that. And a lot of skills that can be taken from a lot of that, that if we have conversations it, instead of saying, Oh, it's all bad for you. You know, we really can get a lot of positive out of, you know, they're, they're giving us the lead there. They're saying, this is what really interests me. This is the world that I live in. And we can use that. Some kids are into movies. Some kids are, you know, what, what are they into? What can we be relatable through that's of interest to them? And you know, when we talk again, when we go back to this idea of making a choice, that is something that we want to build in our kids as well. So when we talk out loud about that, you know, I'm choosing right now to stay calm. I'm choosing right now to give you your space, because I know that's what you want and what you need. Then we're showing them that you can make a choice, you know, with ADHD, impulsivity. So often they, and especially when they're younger, they just don't have that skill. And even that capability at times to stop and think, and to make a choice, it just happens. It just, you know, things just happen. And then you look back,

Deborah Ann Davis (30:58): You don't even have to say, I'm, I'm choosing to each time because you could just model it. You could say, I don't like the way things are going right now. I'm putting the brakes on right this minute in gears. I don't like this way. I'm changing the way it's going. Cause if I'm big on variety. So if you keep saying, I'm choosing to do this, I'm choosing to do that. Then they rely on that as the skill it needs to be. You can apply it here and you can do it there and you can do it over there. You know, like green eggs and ham.

Penny Williams (31:32): Yeah. Kind of talking out loud about what we're doing. That's really big, a skill builder for kids with executive functioning deficits and other, you know, emotional regulation stuff. I always tell parents, you know, you really have to this process that you're doing in your head, vocalize it, you know, make it very apparent to your child because that's how they'll learn to then, you know, do that themselves.

Deborah Ann Davis (31:57): I don't like the way I'm feeling right now. I, I need to do something to make myself feel better. So I'm, I'm interrupting this angry thing. I can just add one more thing to this. My daughter and I handle anger completely differently. And when my daughter is angry, it's like this beacon of angry energy issuing forth from her, knocking down everything in her path, just the energy itself is so intense. And I learned to not stand in that path. Literally physically she's angry. I get next to her. I do not face her because her energy affects my energy. And when I'm next to her, I just get the little ripples that come off the side. I don't get the full brunt of her anger. And I told her that's what I was doing. And so she understands when I moved to the side, when I'm doing, like, if we're, if we were say in the living room and I'm in a chair across from her, I'll move to a chair next to her or, or on the couch next to her, or I'll just stand over by the door.

Deborah Ann Davis (33:15): I get out of the way of that anger. And the other thing is I go back to approach her and you can't do this with, if you have a son, but you could find something comparable. I would go in with a Bible and nail Polish and we'd sit shoulder to shoulder, polishing our toenails. So we're not even looking at each other and it's, we might talk, we might not talk, we might talk about something completely unrelated, but it's to reestablish that there was no damage done. Because one thing that they wrestle with that we don't necessarily wrestle with is whether or not that last thing they said, or that last action they took is permanently going to drive you away. Will you come back? So we need to make them know that I'm walking away right now, but I love you. And I'm right on the other side of that door. So when you want me, I'm here for you. I love you. And I continue this negative way. Yeah.

Penny Williams (34:21): Oh, I never thought about standing next to them instead of facing. And I mean, I got shows when you talked about it, because what a difference that can make a difference that can make that's amazing. And you know, the idea of always coming back. I love that too. So many good nuggets that, you know, even other parenting coaches have not thought about that you've shared. It's amazing. We're coming toward the end of the episode. What else do you want to make sure that you share with the audience?

Deborah Ann Davis (34:55): I would also little shameless self promotion here. There's a book how to keep your daughter from slamming the door, which has tons and tons of many of these activities and strategies in, and tips and techniques that you can use with your kids. But there's a lot of there in a lot of it in there about taking care of yourself as a mom. Like what I said about stepping out of the way of my daughter's anger, you don't stand there. Like you're struggling in a storm, you protect yourself and get yourself out of the way. And you don't blame yourself. You don't self chastise. And if it doesn't work, you don't think, ah, bad me, you know, theme throughout the book about taking care of you first. So it would be helpful for moms of sons also. And I am opening up my offices for taking on new clients in October. So if people are interested in having some coaching sessions, I can also be available next month for that.

Penny Williams (35:59): Awesome. Yes. And, and all of the links to connect with you, your website will all be in the show notes for this episode. For everyone listening, you can go to your parenting, ADHD and autism.com/one zero six for episode 106. And I do absolutely encourage you to go and check out Deborah's website and book and connect and learn more from her. I know there's, there's more nuggets of wisdom than we've been able to share in the short amount of time that are available to everyone. Thanks so much.

Deborah Ann Davis (36:39): I could just add one quick sentence. Most parents have good relationships with their kids when their kids are adults. The whole thing is not about whether you're going to lose this relationship. The whole thing is about making this relationship easier now, but well, it will work out.

Penny Williams (36:58): Yes. I love that you brought it, brought that back around to that because it's true. You know, and I share all the time, my son is almost 18. Now we've been on this journey for 12 years since his first diagnosis and things do get better. You learn more, you get more and more mindful of the way that you interact and respond and you know, it does get better. And it definitely gets better that parent child relationship as an adult, this specially for teens who really kind of push parents away, don't want to have anything to do with their parents. It, it really does come back around. And I think too, you know, we have more influence on our kids than we realize in those moments, you know, when things are hard and it feels like they're not listening, they heard us and they'll come back around.

Deborah Ann Davis (37:53): Yeah. Tell you that they heard you a year later, two years later, they will tell you that they heard you

Penny Williams (38:00): Or when they're in their forties. And they sound just like me and my parents.

Deborah Ann Davis (38:08): Yeah,

Penny Williams (38:08): Yeah. You'll recognize that. Wow. They really did. I mean, even my daughter now who's 21. I hear her giving me the same advice. Sometimes that I've given her about anxiety and especially lately. And I'm like, okay, so you did hear me. You just didn't use it for yourself, but okay. It got through it. It's a journey. It's a journey. And it's always going to have ups and downs. That's life. That's being human. And it's the nature of the beast, but justing and recuperating. Yeah. I mean, we can really drive how that goes for us through self care and through mindfulness and really purposeful parenting, I think is the way that we have control over some of that. Well, thank you again. I so appreciate everyone who share some of their time to come on the podcast and share some really valuable insights and strategies for our parents. So again, the show notes for this episode are at parentingadhdandautism.com/107. And with that, we'll end the episode. I'll see everyone next time.

Penny Williams (39:26): Thanks for joining me on the Parenting ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses, parent coaching and mama retreats at parentingadhdandautism.com.