Shawna Rosenzweig [00:00:03]: So in some ways, I think it has to do with goals. Right? Both asking ourselves as, you know, the adults and young people's lives. Like, what is our goal for this young person? But hopefully also, what is this young person's goal for themselves? Right? And then recognizing there are multiple pathways to get there.

Penny Williams [00:00:22]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:44]: Welcome back, everybody. I am so excited to be having a conversation today with Shawna Rosenzweig, who is the CEO of Campfire, which we are gonna learn all about in this conversation as well. And we're gonna talk about really prioritizing personhood over productivity, over performance, which in my opinion, is a cultural shift that we need to be making for everyone, but especially for our neurodivergent kids who struggle with finding where they fit, who struggle with recognizing their authenticity or feeling like they're safe to be their authentic selves. So we're gonna unpack some of these concepts and ideas with Shauna, and I'm really excited to get into it. But, Shauna, will you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:01:38]: Yeah. So thank you for having me today. So I'm Shauna Rosenzweig. I am the CEO of Campfire, and Campfire is an inclusive youth development organization that connects young people to the outdoors, to others, and to themselves. And, you know, I've really grown up in youth development. Right? Both as a young person who attended after school programs and day camps and overnight camps. And that was how I thought you worked with young people. Right? And I just enjoyed being with young people.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:02:09]: And so that was my high school job, my college job. And I didn't realize I could make a profession out of it, though. And so I saw a lot of ways I feel very fortunate that I have had the opportunity to work for a number of amazing organizations that really focus on supporting young people in the out of school time space. So that's really my area of of interest and passion. And I should add, I'm also a parent of two young people who are, eight and 10. So when I'm not, in my role as CEO, I am very much in my role as parent.

Penny Williams [00:02:42]: Awesome. Such needed work in the world, and I always love chatting with people who are really looking to help our youth find their place and find their purpose. It is more difficult, I think, now than ever. Would you agree?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:02:59]: Absolutely.

Penny Williams [00:03:00]: Yeah. You talk some about centering youth as whole people, not just looking at them like students or performers or a productive part of society. For people who are used to, though, focusing on that productivity, that process, like parents. Right? We're looking for milestones. We're looking for our kids to graduate and go to college and all these things that we've been taught are the only path, even though we know they're not. How can we help people start to shift that mindset from really thinking about the accomplishments to thinking about the person as a whole?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:03:42]: So the first thing that I always like to both remind myself, you know, and others is, you know, to put ourselves in the in the vantage point of young people. Right? And so I think it's very easy as adults to think about young people through one lens based on where they are. Right? If it has to do with school, we think of them solely as a student. If it has to do with, you know, young people at home, it has to do with them as our child. And for young people, their lives are a lot more fluid. Right?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:04:12]: They're moving wholly and holistically through those spaces, And I think it's really important for us to remember that as well. Right? So, you know, when I think about Campfire and, you know, many of our after school programs, young people are coming to us from the school day. They are not necessarily saying, oh, now I'm taking off my my hat as student and transitioning into my role as after school program participant. No. Right? They are experiencing their days and their lives fully and holistically, and I think that's really important for us to remember as well. Right? They are coming into whatever that space, that transition between spaces with the lived experience that they've had that day. Right? So, you know, I often think about, you know, as a parent, and it's so easy to fall into this. Right? Thinking about them in those contexts.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:05:00]: So you're such a hard worker or great job getting your homework done on time because those are the milestones, right, as you named, that we're working through in whatever that setting. And instead kind of thinking about, right, who is this young person, and who do we see them kind of remain consistently, or who are they trying on? Right? So much of youth development is them discovering who they are, right, and developing their interests, their passions, their identities. And so helping them recognize that, right, as they move through different spaces and places. You know? And, again, so often that is, I think, what's incredibly hard for us in with all the societal pressures around us, but it's space to just be. Right? That it's like those transition times are actually in some ways the most beautiful because they tend to be the least structured. Yeah. Right? So giving them the space, right, to just be in the car as they are transitioning or to, you know, be with their friends on the bus as they are, you know, coming to or from school, then in a lot of ways, those are where then developmental magic happens. They also can be, you know, also some of the riskier spaces, you know, in terms of teasing or bullying.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:06:08]: But recognizing that those are spaces really where young people can blossom and recognize kind of who they are and who they want to be among the peers and, you know, the other folks in their lives.

Penny Williams [00:06:19]: We tend to overschedule our kids. And I think, again, it's that mindset of giving them all the opportunities and making sure they do all the things, and they're good at all the things, which I think is sometimes detrimental, not just for them, but for us too. Like, if we are over scheduled as the parent, it's also really difficult to connect with our kids, to have that time and space to really get to know them. And I think that's so important in helping to guide them sort of I always think about like guiding them from afar almost because we really want them to lead. Do you agree with that? That that it's really important to give them that space, but also to follow where they're going in those times?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:07:09]: Absolutely. So I think the both the voice and choice are kind of the language we tend to use in our programs in terms of letting young people guide their experience. And I'll and I'll give you a real world example where, you know, I found myself kind of caught in that moment. Right? And so, you know, this weekend, you know, my son had a sports game, and he was, you know, standing on the sideline, staring up towards the sky. You know? And as a parent, I'm like, why isn't he engaged? Like, come on. How is he gonna get playing time? And and I could feel, right, like, within me, the stress and the tension building. And it was an interesting moment to pause and say, okay. Like, how would I advise this in our programs? And one of the things we often talk about, especially in outdoor settings, the opportunity to look up, right, really helps you reregulate yourself.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:07:58]: And so maybe he needed in that moment that reregulation, right, to be able to kind of rebalance, reset himself, and that was actually very soothing and centering for him. He may not have been stressed thinking, why am I not playing? Whatever. He may actually have been having a really nice moment to kind of reestablish himself in that setting or to be present in that setting, you know, and I'm the I'm the parent on the sideline who's who's having the opposite experience. Right? And so, again, I think an opportunity to think about, okay. How do how can I observe the young people in my lives to let them lead as opposed to when am I trying to steer? Right? As opposed to how can I think about keeping them on the road, you know, but some bearing is okay? Right? And responding to what they need in those various moments, I think, can be really important. And a lot of times, it is that that space to simply be. Right? Whether it's downtime or to decide how they're using their free time or, yeah, to resist the urge to fill every possible moment. Again, looking for, I think, the breaks and the transitions, even within the structured activities can be incredibly important as well.

Penny Williams [00:09:09]: Yeah. And how do we sort of strike that balance? You know, as parents, we are we're driven by those outside voices coming in that say, this is the path to achievement. This is the path to, you know, whatever, health and happiness. And then on the other side, we have a neurodivergent kid who, you know, doesn't necessarily not fit. I'm not gonna use the word fit. But, you know, they they need a different path often. Right? They need a different journey. And it's really tough to separate ourselves from those outside voices and really listen to what we know about our kids.

Penny Williams [00:09:50]: And asking those questions, like, noticing, like you were just saying. Maybe it's something else entirely right now in this moment. He's actually regulating himself so he can be more invested in the game when he's back in the game. Right? How do we get to a mindset where we can start to notice those things and ask those questions to really be able to steer away from this productivity sort of attitude and perspective?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:10:18]: So in some ways, I think it has to do with goals. Right? Both asking ourselves as, you know, the adults and young people's lives. Like, what is our goal for this young person? But hopefully, also, what is this young person's goal for themselves. Right? And then recognizing there are multiple pathways to get there. Right? So in many of our overnight camp settings, one of the changes we made to the environment, to the space. Right? Dining halls can be very overwhelming. Right? They are sensory overload for a number of reasons. You know, I think top of the list being the volume in there can be incredibly overwhelming.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:10:54]: And part of what we had to ask ourselves, you know, as a summer camp provider is what's the goal. Right? What's the goal of meal time? And ultimately, right, like, if you were to ask me, it's about connection. Right? It's about young people building connection with each other. And then what are the pathways to get there? That is not everyone having to eat in a noisy dining hall together to build connection, that actually there are multiple pathways. And so one of the changes that we've made is making sure that there are alternative eating spaces outside the dining hall that are quieter.

Penny Williams [00:11:29]: Mhmm. Love that.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:11:30]: And, again, there's still opportunities to build connection, but there's a different path to it. Right? Or, again, we often see, you know, water used for team building activities. Right? Some weeks where, you know, water is much more prevalent, again, can be, from a sensory perspective, very overwhelming, very overloading. Are there ways to communicate and to create alternative pathways towards the same goal that all young people have? So, like, what what's the dry version of this activity? Right? And, ultimately, still leads folks to feeling the same accomplishments, the same connections. And, again, I think that has really changed how we think about what an enriching activity looks like or what the goal is, and also naming for young people. What it what is it that they are looking to get out of this experience? Right? And oftentimes right? We hear it is maybe it is the chance to just be with my friends or to be in nature. Right? Oftentimes, for our older young people, it's the chance to get off their phones. Right?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:12:32]: And that in and of itself feels very calming and recharging. And so thinking about, again, like, both as the adults creating that space, what's our goal for this young person and for the young person? How can we be having that same conversation and processing through? What is their goal? Because I think oftentimes when people surprise us in terms of what we think their goal is and what their actual goal is is not always the same.

Penny Williams [00:12:57]: Yeah we need to ask. We need to not just make assumptions but we need to also ask our kids what is your goal what do you want to get out of this and I kind of I saw in what you're saying sort of this three step process that I think adults can use in questioning, first, what's the goal of this? And, you know, I learned to do that as a parent of a neurodivergent kid with school, especially, and homework, and things that were so challenging. What is the actual goal here? And can we even accomplish it in the traditional way? You know? The goal at school oftentimes is to have butts in seats. Right? And they need to be present so that they can learn. But if you have a kid who's super dysregulated in that environment and needs more breaks or needs something else to help, they're not even learning when their butt is in the seat. It doesn't even matter that they're there. Right? So I learned early on, like, really ask what is that high level goal and back up from there.

Penny Williams [00:13:58]: But then parents can also ask what's the pathway to get there. Like, what you're outlining to me is really intentional. Being very purposeful, right, about what we are steering our kids toward and how much we're letting them sort of guide the ship as well. And then the third is, are there multiple pathways? So is there another way to do this? We get stuck in the way everybody else is doing it, or what's, you know, the neurotypical path, or what our culture says we should be doing. But there's multiple pathways to everything, I think. And that's a really key question. Right?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:14:37]: Absolutely. And I think, you know, whether as a parent or, you know, as an educator or whatever role, again, you're playing in a young person's life, Not always needing to have all the answers, but, you know, those questions you're naming, I think, can be really helpful advocacy tools as well. Right? You know, I think about, you know, a lot of what we've been exploring at Campfire right now is, you know, there's so much conversation around chronic absenteeism. And we know, right, the two top reasons that young people are missing school, and this often is different from adults' perception of it, is either illness or appointments. Right? A young person has a medical appointment. They have counseling. Right? That they're all scheduled during the same, you know, six to eight hours of the day. And, you know, a lot of, I think, the way attendance systems are structured and, you know, the conversation around chronic absenteeism is putting the blame on the young people.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:15:33]: Right? You did not get invited into the, you know, perfect attendance party because you had to miss. Something's wrong with you. You were sick. You, you know, needed to meet with a therapist. And, again, there is, I think, a complete reframe around that to say, okay, wait. How can what are the alternate pathways? What's the goal for the school? Is it that young people are learning and growing and that they're, you know, growing academically, emotionally, socially, you know, mentally? Then if that's true, and I want to believe that the vast majority of educators would say, yes, absolutely, we agree with that, Then what are the other ways to not punish the young people, but build a supportive system around them instead to support them? And so, again, I think even keeping those questions in mind, you know, in the moments where you don't have the answers, but how can you use those to advocate, you know, with and on behalf of the young people in your life can be a very powerful tool as well.

Penny Williams [00:16:31]: I hear you saying that in those environments, even those really outcome driven environments like school, that there's so many other factors to be focused on other than, say, for instance, in school, learning and grades and college preparedness or test scores. Right? There's so many other aspects of development that I think we ignore sometimes in those really outcome driven environments that we just need again, it's that it's that mindset shift, right, that we started talking about in the very beginning here of looking at that whole personhood instead of just the performance in each environment. Can we talk a little bit I wanna shift a little bit to belonging and identity because this is such, I think, a real struggle right now for all of our youth, but it impacts neurodivergent kids often even more so or more intensely. And, you know, I've come to believe or to recognize that when kids feel seen, heard, and understood, capable, and they start showing up in different ways. They connect in different ways. It just really, to me, opens a lot of doors and windows and sets a really strong foundation for success. But how do we help our youth come to feel seen and heard and understood and valued?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:18:14]: Yeah. So I think the first piece is checking in with them. Right? Like, asking them not only how they are, but who they are. Right? What what is you know? And then, again, it's it's that paying attention piece. Right? Like, what is it that is lighting them up inside? Right? What are they interested in? And, you know, again, I think often with, you know, neurodivergent young people, those can show up more intensely. Right? Whether it becomes, you know, more of an obsessive focus, but sometimes it it's embracing that. Right? And Yeah. You know, so I think about, you know, one of my own kids.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:18:50]: Right? It's The Beatles. Right? It's music. And thinking about how to utilize that interest and that passion to help him understand who he is in the world, right, and how that can be his gift, his passion, right, and help him think about, again, not just his contribution, but see value in himself because of that. Right? And so, again, it's it often, I think, especially, you know, in campfire programs comes back to, again, like, the voice and choice, not deciding for young people what it is they're doing, but also the opportunity to explore and try new things, right, and both pursue the things they are passionate about already. And I often like to say to the young people that I work with and my own kids, like, you can't care about something if you don't know about it. So I think it's also really important to have the opportunities to be trying new things. And, again, this is where kind of being very mindful of the praise and how we're recognizing or slipping into the lens of productivity. Because no one, including ourselves, right, is going to be proficient in something the first time they try it.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:20:01]: And so really looking for the opportunity in that to make failure fun, right, and to, you know, find ways to try something new. So I I coach basketball as my my side my side gig. Right? As a hobby. And, you know, fourth grade girls are incredibly aware of what others are thinking of them, right, and their place in their blossoming social dynamics. And, you know, I found myself, and actually my daughter was the one to remind me of this, you know, she was like, you're pointing out what everyone else is doing well, but not me. And it was a, you know, a moment to recognize that. Right? Often those closest to you that you are interacting with the most, you aren't necessarily as intentional or as aware of how they're showing up in spaces. And, again, it was a moment also to think about, okay, what is it that I'm praising or recognizing as a coach for all the young people on this team? And, actually, what I found, like, an intentional shift that I made our last practice, and it was during those downtime.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:21:13]: So, again, that water break being that real moment for connection for this team, it was finding silly things to recognize. Right? Like, oh, so and so is the queen of the water fountain. Right? Or, like, oh, the way you, you know, like, you failed beautifully in that moment, you know, and making that safe and fun and okay. And everyone suddenly wanted something that they didn't do perfectly. You know? It was like, help us recognize where we weren't perfect or didn't feel the pressure to be perfect. And that totally shifted the dynamic, right, among the group. And, again, I feel like we're in this society. Young people are constantly trying to be in the spotlight or, you know, for in some cases, avoid the spotlight.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:21:55]: Right? But because trying to be perfectly productive in those spaces, giving them the space to not only what we would probably label as failing, but really to just try. Right? To try things and not have to be perfect at it, but to just experience what can come the emotions that can come of that experience being the priority.

Penny Williams [00:22:20]: You mentioned perfection, and I think this is such a tough driver. It shouldn't be a driver. But somehow, culturally, I think we have landed there, and perfection doesn't even exist. And so, you know, I'm always thinking, like, we are pushing our kids to achieve something that's impossible. It doesn't exist. They're always going to feel less than if we're giving them goals that aren't even achievable.

Penny Williams [00:22:51]: And I think, you know, online media and social media and all these things because everybody only shares their highlight reel, it's really pushing that dynamic, unfortunately. But how do we help kids to shift that belief that they need to be perfect into the belief that really they just need to be themselves and that's enough, and that's great. Not even enough. It's more than enough. Where do we start with that?

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:23:21]: Yeah. So in a lot of ways, I think it's it's helping young people recognize their emotions. Right? And record or recognizing how they feel in their body. What do you need in this moment? Right? So, yeah, as you're you know, if or some of our, you know, older youth, as you're, you know, scrolling through social media, what do you feel right now? Like, what is what is the feeling in your body that you feel in this moment? Right? And and I feel like they often are the first to tell us, like, this doesn't feel good. Right? Like, I can feel the pressure building, and, really, I would love someone to process through these feelings with. Right? So, again, I think asking the open ended questions, how do you feel? Right? What what do you need from me in this moment? What would, you know, help you to feel safe and supported? That's a great place to start because so often I what, you know, I found that comes out of those conversations with so many of the teens in our programs, it's things like, this isn't real. And I know it's not real, but I also need someone to validate that feeling that this isn't real for me.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:24:27]: Hey. I need a break from the screen. Can you please validate that that is a normal feeling? And, you know, another place to start in addition to just those open ended questions is also, I think, in modeling it in ourselves. Right? Are we as we're playing with young people, are our phones away, or are we also checking at the same time, right, as we're working on homework, you know, or or encouraging the person to finish their homework. It's like, come on. We gotta go. We gotta go.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:24:55]: Like, get this done so we can move on. Or how are we showing up in that moment? You know? And so I think also not only asking those open ended questions of the young people in our lives, but also asking those questions of ourselves. Like, how am I feeling. In my body right now? Like, what emotions are rising to the top for me? Okay. What do I need to reset that? Right? And, again, oftentimes, those tools to reset that we do have can be a really enjoyable experience. Right? So one of my kiddos has one of those little, you know, breathing meditation lights. So when it, you know, is one color, you breathe in, and then it's another color. You know, it's a little it's a little box breathing.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:25:32]: Right? And that's a really enjoyable activity for both of us to do together. Right? We both recognize how it's changing the feelings with inside our bodies, and it's a really nice little bonding experience for us as well. And so, again, thinking about those opportunities to both be checking in with young people, but also checking in with ourselves and how we're modeling the overload and overstimulation that can come from feeling pressured to be perfect.

Penny Williams [00:26:00]: Yeah. Yeah. The way we show up sets the tone for everything. And I think, you know, we get so on autopilot, and we're just going through their motions, and our kid doesn't wanna do homework. And so we're also grumpy during that time, and and we're feeding each other. Right? We really have to think about how we show up with kids and how much that really impacts the ways that they show up. When they show up and they don't wanna be there, they're grumpy or this or that. You know? We have to recognize that maybe we had a part to play in that.

Penny Williams [00:26:36]: And maybe if we show up differently, we can help them show up differently. It's really a monumental shift that is such common sense, but we don't think about it unless we think about it. Right? It's not something that really comes to the forefront of our mind unless we're taught to do that. I think we're teaching kids to do that more now. Like, as you're saying, there's this light that helps them do a breathing exercise. I'm thinking, gosh, I wish there was that when my kids were young. You know, my kids are young adults now. I wish we knew to teach them breathing exercises much younger than when I learned it because it is really powerful.

Penny Williams [00:27:11]: So we are shifting that way, but we need a whole lot more of it, I think. I wanna give you some time to tell us more about Campfire and the programs that your organization offers and to be able to address maybe you know, is this open for neurodivergent kids? What age groups? What do you do? What are the programs? All these things before we close because I think that there are a lot of parents listening who could really benefit and their kids could benefit from what you're doing there.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:27:42]: Absolutely. Yeah. So Campfire is a 15 years old. So we, been in the lives of young people, for for many, many years. And we were founded in the early nineteen hundreds with the philosophy that at the time, young women were not having the opportunity to experience the outdoors the same as young men were. Right? At that point, boy scouts was a a very popular organization for young boys. Girl scouts had not yet come over from England, and young women didn't have the opportunity to get outdoors. And so that orientation, I think, really established Campfire as an organization that was always going to look for who historically has been excluded from outdoor opportunities.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:28:26]: And, you know, we've now since evolved that to our programs are both in for or about the outdoors. So, not every program is is an overnight camp, right, where you are, experiencing the outdoors. Sometimes it's an after school program in your school building. But, again, really thinking about who historically has not felt welcomed or that they belonged in, again, whether it be after school programs, day camps, overnight camp spaces, and that includes neurodivergent young people as well. And so Campfire today, has, 44, different affiliates that we call them, in 25 states plus the DC area, serving over a hundred thousand young people and their families each year. And so during the school year, yeah, you can find us in classrooms or on the playground. We have a partnership with Playworks where we work to create a safe and inclusive play during the recess time at schools as well. You can find us in many after school program settings, again, both in the school building and outside of.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:29:28]: We also offer a wide range of outdoor and environmental education programs. So, again, where a school or school district may bring their fourth or fifth graders out to one of our camp properties to experience the outdoors for the first time. And then during school breaks in the summer, a wide range of of day camps, summer learning programs, overnight programs as well. We also offer family camp programs where it's an opportunity to, as a family, come and experience some camp programming, you know, to be in the outdoors together. So I encourage folks to, explore those as well. Those can be a great way to, start to build some of the comfort, right, for, young people in our program. So if, if you check out our website, campfire.org, that will, be a great starting place to, discover where we have locations and explore the different types of programs that Campfire offers. But if there's one thing that I think of when I think of Campfire, yeah, it's a space for young people to show up fully and wholly as themselves, and you will find that, yeah, our programs are staffed with young adults and adults that are trained professionals to prioritize exactly that, to prioritize building connection with young people, and that's something we take, a lot of pride in.

Penny Williams [00:30:49]: Love it. Yeah. I will link that up in the show notes for everybody too. So you can go to parentingADHDandautism.com/307 for episode 307, and I will make sure that Campfire is linked up for everyone there so that they can connect, and your social media will be linked up there as well. And we encourage everyone to please check it out. I was so disappointed that I didn't even know Campfire existed when I found out recently to have you on. And I'm just so thankful that programs like that exist that are really focused on helping kids discover themselves and be themselves. It's so so important today.

Penny Williams [00:31:32]: Thank you, Shauna, for not only the work you're doing in the world, but for coming here and giving us some of your time and your wisdom and your energy and your passion for helping kids. I really appreciate it.

Shawna Rosenzweig [00:31:43]: Well, likewise, thank you for all you do. I know I'm a better parent because of it.

Penny Williams [00:31:47]: Oh, thank you. I'll see everybody in the next episode. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:31:52]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.