T

iffany Burns [00:00:03]: They're not thinking, oh, gosh. She keeps telling me to sit up and engage in class and get my paper turned in, and she's just saying all those things because she just loves me so much, and she really cares about me. No. That kid thinks we're a nag. That kid thinks that we're on their case and that we're really kinda after them, and they might even think we don't like them. And that is really, really problematic.

Penny Williams [00:00:30]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast

Tiffany Burns [00:00:32]: where

Penny Williams [00:00:33]: I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:52]: Welcome back, everybody, to Beautifully Complex. I am thrilled today to have with me both Tiffany Burns and Erica Baer to talk about their book and connecting with students at school through conversation, which I know as parents, we're gonna be able to pull a lot of good strategies from as well. But we can also share these strategies with the educators that work with our neurodivergent kids. So will you all start by introducing yourself? Let everybody listening know who you are and what you do, and then we're gonna get into the good stuff.

Erica Bare [00:01:26]: Sure. I'm Erica Baer, and I've been an educator for just well, a few years past twenty years. And, I started out as a special education teacher, and I had the opportunity to work with students, in early intervention all the way through transition age and absolutely loved that work. Transitioned into administration school administration about thirteen, fourteen years ago and was a high school principal and assistant principal, elementary principal, student services director, and assistant superintendent, and now serve as the superintendent in a lovely district here in Southern Oregon. And on top of that, I have two amazing kids, 20 and 17, and a fabulous husband who makes it all possible for me.

Penny Williams [00:02:14]: And I'm

Erica Bare [00:02:14]: here with my lovely colleague, Tiffany.

Tiffany Burns [00:02:17]: Hi. Thanks for having us.

Penny Williams [00:02:19]: Yeah. So,

Tiffany Burns [00:02:19]: I've also been in education for over twenty years. I've taught elementary, middle, high school. I'm now teaching university. I've been a school administrator since 02/2012. Erica and I actually met in our, admin, program together, which is and then we were hired in the same district, which has been kinda lovely has been rather lovely to get to spend so much time with her. I also have two fabulous children and a wonderful husband and a very weird dog. And this year, I decided to take a professional sabbatical. Erica and I wrote this book, and, we've been traveling all over the country doing professional development.

Tiffany Burns [00:02:58]: I've been coaching principals and working with schools and districts, and it's kinda hard to do that as a full time principal. So this year, I'm I'm working at a university and then doing that same work, and it has just been really fun. Really, really fun.

Penny Williams [00:03:12]: Yeah. It's so amazing to be able to be a helper in the world and to be able to share what we're so passionate about, and I know that it's helping so many people, so many schools and administrators, but also the kids. Because when we understand behavior and when we're able to connect, it really makes a difference for students. Where do you wanna start this conversation? I feel like there are probably some strategies around how we have conversations with kids and, you know, strategies around how do we handle challenging behavior in a way that works for neurodivergent kids. Because so often, those traditional models just don't work for kids who have a hard time already in that school environment and fitting and meeting expectations.

Erica Bare [00:04:03]: Yeah. I think a primary strategy that we would start with, really, with all kids is the idea that we need to care out loud with all of our students.

Penny Williams [00:04:12]: Mhmm.

Erica Bare [00:04:13]: I love kids. That's why I got into education. I know that you love kids. I think all of the educators out there love kids, or at least we really hope so, and they know that, and their colleagues know that. But oftentimes, the students don't know that, and that really is where we have to start. And Tiffany does a great job kind of explaining how that goes.

Tiffany Burns [00:04:35]: Thanks, Erica. I do. I think that's one of the absolute most important things is making sure that kids know that we really, really do care about them, and that's why we went into education. You know, they don't come into school just knowing that. They don't come into school thinking, oh my goodness, every single adult that works here loves me, they care about me. They got into education because they just wanted to see me be successful. And especially with our kids that are neurodiverse and that are not neurotypical, they're getting lots of redirection frequently. They're getting lots of reminders, lots of intervention, lots of, we need to do it this way, let's not do it that way.

Tiffany Burns [00:05:14]: I know it's important for all kids, but it's especially important for our kids that are needing extra direction or more intervention because they're not thinking, oh, gosh. She keeps telling me to sit up and engage in class and get my paper turned in, and she just saying all those things because she just loves me so much and she really cares about me. No. That kid thinks we're a nag. Yeah. That kid thinks that we're on their case and that we're really kinda after them, and they might even think we don't like them. And that is really, really problematic. We know you know, Erica likes to say, if you've been in education for five minutes, you know that relationships are important.

Tiffany Burns [00:05:54]: And so with that, it's just really necessary that we say to kids frequently and explicitly and intentionally, I care about you. I'm so glad you're here. This class is so much better because you're in it. Oh, it's so fantastic that you participated today. You know, whatever it is, but really building those sentence stems in or those phrases into our everyday conversation. Because if if we don't, kids are gonna assume that we don't.

Penny Williams [00:06:22]: Mhmm. For sure. Yeah. And I'm thinking, you know, how do we not even communicate that we care, but how do we make them feel like they're cared for in that environment? And teachers are so overtaxed. Right? There's so much to think about and be responsible for. You have so many kids, and they all have different needs. What are some strategies that teachers can use kind of with all kids, really, to make them feel like we care?

Erica Bare [00:06:52]: So we really suggest we we have to tell them. We have to use our words. But then, also, we have to build into our routine some specific pieces that are gonna show care on a regular basis. So, you know, there's a number of them, and we we talk about this in our book, and it's also on our website. But a few routines that I think are really powerful that we sometimes skip over, how we greet our students and how we say goodbye to our students is really critical. Students remember most clearly the first and last thing is a part of any interaction. And so being really intentional when when a student is entering the space to make sure that they feel welcome and loved and that we're excited for them to be there, and that can range from a whole number of things. It can be as simple as like, oh my gosh, Johnny.

Erica Bare [00:07:37]: I'm so excited to see you today. We're gonna have such a good time. I'm thrilled that you're here to you know, you see those YouTube videos with all the fancy greetings and that sort of thing. If that's if that's for you, you can do that too. But then also as closure, kind of bringing a celebration to the end of the day, we wanna use a student's name as often as possible, and then just say how excited we are to see them next time and let them know that they're gonna be missed. And so really focusing on the beginning and end is really critical. We also a very practical thing to really help us get to know our students and then celebrate them is to take inventory of their favorite things. Find out what their favorite superhero is.

Erica Bare [00:08:19]: What's their favorite song? What's their favorite whatever the you know, depending on the age is gonna really focus that. But then finding those things out, but then using them throughout the year. So if you get every student's favorite song, you can build a playlist. And when it's appropriate to play music in class, you can play a playlist of their favorite songs. When their birthday comes up, you can celebrate with something that is specific to them. You know, if their favorite superhero is Batman, we have a Batman sticker. Right? It doesn't have to be huge, but it just shows that we're paying attention to them individually and as a person. And so just building some of those routines into our daily practice is gonna show care on a regular basis.

Penny Williams [00:09:01]: Mhmm.

Tiffany Burns [00:09:02]: You know, I have I have two teenagers, and both of my kids are, neurodiverse. And my son, I can ask him how he's in high school. I can ask him how his day is, and, oh my goodness, I get, like,

Penny Williams [00:09:13]: cool, fine,

Tiffany Burns [00:09:14]: you know, I mean, like, one word answers. Yep. My daughter, I ask her how her day was, and, I mean, I get the full rundown of every like, I know what people ate for lunch that day, which is just great. My kids are just really different. But so, you know, at dinner, we try to have dinner together as many times a week as we can. Sometimes that's hard when they play sports and have different activities. But one of the things we do every night at dinner that we have it is we say, what's an orchid and onion? What's a highlight of your day and a low point in your day? My kids for a while got into telling me something they were looking forward to, so they named that a carrot, which is cute. But it's it's a really you know, we can do that in classrooms, but we can also do that at home.

Tiffany Burns [00:09:54]: Sometimes the pressure of, tell me about your day, that's too much. But if I say, what what is a good thing that happened today, and what was a not so good thing that happened today? And then also, you know, I have to be willing to share as well. I need to show that vulnerability too with my kids and say, here are the parts, you know, about my day. I don't go into detail with them, but I do share with them those pieces. And it's just really helpful to let them know that we're paying attention, and we do care about what's going on for them.

Penny Williams [00:10:23]: Yeah. And my son was the same way in high school. When I would pick him up, I'd be like, how was your day? Right? You know, doing that mom thing, and he just did not have anything left in his reserves at that moment Yeah. To talk about any of it. Right? And I had to learn Mhmm. To honor that signal that he was telling me they needed some downtime. I also had to learn to be more specific and not ask a question. My kid did not like questions.

Penny Williams [00:10:48]: Questions were an immediate, like, nope. Not having any conversation with you. And so noticing and that's kind of what you were talking about too, Erica, is really noticing what they're into, but noticing it out loud with them. Right? Right. I see that your favorite color is purple. I see that your favorite team is, you know, the sports team or your favorite TV show or book character, whatever it is. There's so many ways to just be a little more communicative about what we're noticing. Right? And then that makes them feel really seen.

Penny Williams [00:11:23]: I talk all the time about how if we all felt seen, heard, and understood, it would really change the world. Like, it really changes how we show up and how we feel from day to day, and it makes a huge impact for kids at school when teachers, you know, the teachers that my kid remembers now that he's graduated from school and had thirteen years are the ones who really took the time to get to know him and to connect in that way, and that's what's most memorable. Two, when you were talking about greeting them in the mornings, we had a principal change halfway through high school, and the new principal the last couple of years before COVID hit was out there every day

Erica Bare [00:12:04]: Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:12:05]: Greeting every kid who got dropped off at that front door. Every single kid, he would talk to them. And you knew that he had so many things to be doing. Right? Because he's in charge of of everything, and this is a big high school. But even I noticed that as a parent, it made a difference to me even. So it's really a powerful thing.

Erica Bare [00:12:27]: Yeah. And, you know, oftentimes, people will say we don't have time to do these different things that help build relationships or take that time to really get to know and recognize and celebrate our students. And I would argue strongly that we don't have time to not do that because what happens when we really take the time to build those connections and build those relationships, you're able to save so much time down the road. You know, I was thinking about, you know, you noticed as a parent. And I think sometimes parents don't know how much we love and care about their kids at school. And so making sure that we're integrating that into our conversation as well, making sure that we're engaging in frequent small talk with our kids and their caregivers, and then weaving that into conversations with both of them can make a significant difference. Because, you know, as a mom, I wanted to know that the folks that were taking care of my kids knew them, loved them, cared about them, and had their very best interest at heart. And although, you know, as an educator, I know that's true for me as a parent until you can see that in action.

Erica Bare [00:13:31]: It's a leap of faith. And so helping make that clear for everyone is really important.

Penny Williams [00:13:36]: Yeah. And how can we take these strategies that you've been talking about and use them to help with behavior challenges at school? Because we know, as I said in the very beginning, most of the really traditional behavior modification things don't work very well for neurodivergent kids. I would argue that they're probably not the best way for any kid.

Tiffany Burns [00:13:59]: But,

Penny Williams [00:13:59]: like, for instance, in first grade, they had the color behavior charts. Right? And every kid would have to turn their card if they got in trouble for something. And kids like mine who are hyperactive and all over the place and wanna talk all the time, right, really struggled with that, with having to you know, you would come home and say, my card is always orange or red. I don't know how to keep a green. Right? So things like that can be damaging, right, to their self esteem.

Erica Bare [00:14:28]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:14:28]: How do we pivot from that? What what's a a more effective way? I don't wanna say better.

Erica Bare [00:14:35]: Well, I think, you know, come from kind of the 20,000 foot view, the first thing we have to do as educators and as parents and caregivers is recognize that behavior is communication. They're needing to let us know something. There's something that they need to communicate. There's a need that's not being met, and they don't yet have the skills to express that need in a way that, you know, is kind of traditionally works at school.

Penny Williams [00:15:00]: Yep.

Erica Bare [00:15:01]: And so we spend a lot of time talking about the fact that a student's behavior is what they did. It's not who they are. Because what can be tricky, you know, in the example that you gave is if a student has an orange and red card day after day after day, they're gonna start seeing themselves as a bad kid. They're gonna start seeing themselves as someone who is not good at school. And so we wanna be really clear with students and in our own minds that a a behavior is just a thing you did. It's not who you are. So our job is to help separate that for students and then start to identify what are some of the lagging skills, what are some of the pieces that we can scaffold and build so that we can communicate in a way that works better at school. When we get to a place where we just start to believe that's who we are, or even as a teacher, if we get to a place where we start believing that's just kinda who this kid is, then that's a very kind of hopeless place to be.

Erica Bare [00:15:59]: You know, as the student, you're very likely to just start doing more and more of that behavior because you start to believe it's out of your control if you aren't being taught the skills of of how to adjust. Right? And then also being in negotiation with the educator about what can work for me in this space in a way that's gonna work for everyone. Some of that collaborative problem solving can be really helpful in moments like that. And then also as a teacher, like, if we're in a space where we're like, I can't impact this behavior, then we're just thinking this is gonna be a really long year.

Penny Williams [00:16:30]: Yeah.

Erica Bare [00:16:31]: But we're teachers. And so our job is to teach and build skills. And so we also wanna be in a place of, okay, this is a skill they don't have. We're gonna make a plan to build this skill set and really work closely with the student and with the team to figure out, okay, what are the specific skills? What are some of those pieces that we can start skill building in in a way that's gonna work, for everybody? So it's a mindset piece for me as a starting place.

Penny Williams [00:16:59]: Yeah. Absolutely.

Tiffany Burns [00:17:01]: One, I think, too, is how do we build from their strengths? Right? Like, how that whole idea of really getting to know our students and knowing, you know, what their interests are. That's also knowing what their strengths are and using those to help build that relationship, but also really support the skill building that we're looking for. How do we really channel those strengths? How do we focus on their interest to help them, you know, be able to really I mean, what we're asking kids to do is to stop, think, and make good choices, and and how can we do that in ways that are really supportive and not shaming.

Penny Williams [00:17:43]: I find too that these sorts of pivots for teachers, you can do it for every student. It makes a difference for every student. Right? So we're not asking you to adopt a different strategy for every different student. Right? And as Erica said a few minutes ago, it's gonna save you time in the long run. If you can shift, your classroom is just going to work more efficiently, and kids are going to feel more comfortable there, which helps with behavior also and really adopting that mindset that they are sending us signals. Kids are always sending us signals of what they need. You know? When my kid was bouncing all over the room, he needed movement. Right? His nervous system was saying, I need movement.

Penny Williams [00:18:28]: I can't be still. You know? And that teacher was great, and she pivoted in so many ways in first grade with both giving him a a different sort of behavior plan so that he could earn the rewards that the other kids were earning and also a lot of movement and things like that. And and it didn't take any extra time. It was just something that needed to happen, and it actually saved her time, right, from having to constantly correct. And, you know, what I'm hearing you say is that connection is so much more important than correction.

Tiffany Burns [00:19:01]: Oh, absolutely. Well, and I think you keep saying mindset, and I think that's just so accurate and so just truthful. And a lot of times when we think about kids that need a lot of our intervention, they need a lot of our attention. We call these students and we think of them as attention seeking. And Eric and I talk a lot about really starting to shift that and thinking about kids as connection seeking and just how that small shift really changes the way that we're thinking about kids and the way that we're interacting with kids. And, also, it starts us to feel differently about them. Right? If I think of a student as attention seeking, well, that means they need a lot from me. I'm having to give a lot.

Tiffany Burns [00:19:45]: That's a one way relationship. Right? But if I think of a student as connection seeking, well, that just means that they wanna connect with me, and that goes from feeling like something I'm giving away to something I'm also getting in return. That feels much more reciprocal. That feels just like a much more joyful place to be. And not only will I feel that as the educator or the adult talking with this child, they're going to feel it as well. They'll notice that shift because I'll I'll talk to them differently, I'll think about them differently, and we'll interact differently.

Penny Williams [00:20:20]: Mhmm. It's almost a culture shift. Right? You're creating a culture

Erica Bare [00:20:24]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:20:24]: In your classroom of community, of collaboration, of connection, and that it just goes so far. It's really can change everything.

Erica Bare [00:20:34]: It really can. And I think, you know, in our book, we talk about the mindset piece. We really believe that there's an art and a science to building relationships and serving kids. What I wanna make sure that we also share is that there is mind shift, there is kind of thinking, and there's a lot of culture building that needs to happen in a classroom or a school community to get to a place where this is is gonna be effective. But you can't just say to an educator, like, think differently, do better. You also have to provide some really concrete skills and strategies. And so we really tried to balance those things, you know, as a building principle. When I was working with an educator who struggled with relationships, I couldn't just say, you know, go build better relationships.

Erica Bare [00:21:19]: If they knew how to do that, they would be doing that right. It's always preferable to do well than not do well. And I believe the same thing for our kids. So we also tried to include some concrete strategies. I think some of the pieces around power struggle might be especially helpful for for the parents on the line too. But we spend a a bunch of time on this idea of not engaging in power struggles with students because we know as soon as we engage, we have lost the battle. And so we think about it as as like a tug of war. We're not gonna pick up the rope, and we have some specific strategies that we like to share.

Erica Bare [00:21:57]: One of them is don't ask a question if it's not a choice. As educators, we have this tendency to be super polite. We like to put please in front of everything, and that can be really confusing, especially if we have a black and white thinker.

Penny Williams [00:22:14]: Yep.

Erica Bare [00:22:14]: If we have an expectation, we just need to state the expectation. So saying something like, oh, could you walk in the halls is not helpful because a perfectly acceptable answer to that is no. Okay. Right? So instead, we're going to say, we walk in the halls. You can take a seat now. Thanks for lining up. But we're just stating the expectation. We're not asking a question.

Erica Bare [00:22:37]: And it's just you wouldn't believe how common it is to hear, oh, could you all take a seat? Oh, could you all come line up? Mhmm. Or we also often see folks turn a statement into a question. Right? It's time to move to art now. Okay? And, like, by adding that okay, all of a sudden we've taken an expectation, and we've turned it into a question. And any parent knows we're not gonna look at a three year old and say, oh, do you feel like going to bed now? Right. Of course not. No. No.

Erica Bare [00:23:07]: Thank you. You wanna brush your teeth?

Penny Williams [00:23:09]: Uh-uh. Mm-mm.

Erica Bare [00:23:11]: So we wanna be really clear, state expectations as expectations, and don't ask a question if it's not a choice.

Penny Williams [00:23:18]: I love that. That's such a practical strategy. Right? Because we do. I mean, I I as a people pleaser and a person with social anxiety, I'm always everything is please, thank you. Like, I'm going over the top with making the other person comfortable Yep. And trying not to say the wrong thing. And I think Right. If we're just a super kind, compassionate person, we're saying please and thank you.

Penny Williams [00:23:44]: Right. We're trying to do that, and so it will take some mindful awareness and effort to make that kind of shift, but I can see how it would make a real difference.

Erica Bare [00:23:55]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:23:55]: Can we talk just a second before we close about you know, I hear a lot from parents and educators that we can't change the way our system is. Right? So educators will say, well, it's the policy for my entire school or my entire district that we use the specific behavior program, the card turning or whatever it might be, and they don't feel like they can do something different. And then parents are coming in and saying, this isn't working for my kid, and they're saying, but this is what I have to do. How can they start to help to maybe shift the culture in their school so that we can adopt these different ways of looking at behavior and connecting with kids?

Tiffany Burns [00:24:41]: I think it's really important to think about is what you're doing working, you know. And Erica and I are just on this absolute mission. Like, we do wanna change. Yep. We are on a mission to ensure that every single student in every single school feels that they are cared for, loved, seen, valued, and a deep sense of belonging. That's what we want. And so I think the piece to really look at, is what you're doing really working, and does it feel good to you? You know, like, I don't wanna go to work and and feel like I don't wanna be there or, like, my job is all about discipline. I that that's not fun.

Tiffany Burns [00:25:20]: That's not why I went into education. I wanna go because I wanna get to spend time with kids. I wanna get excited about teaching and learning. I wanna feel some connection there. I wanna bring joy to the world, and I wanna make the world a better place. So we wrote this book to do that. We wrote I mean, this is a playbook for how to talk with students, different strategies and stems that we can use. And these type of strategies, a teacher can immediately put into place in their classroom just, like, tomorrow.

Tiffany Burns [00:25:50]: You know? And parents it's so funny. We'll talk to educators, and the parents will be like, tried it that night with my son, and it totally works. But I just think, you know, these are things that are just they build that that culture of connection. When we were coming back from COVID at my the school I was in principal at, an elementary school, We had moved. There were a number of different factors, but our student body had shifted. Over 50% of our student body was brand new. So a bunch of our students didn't really know our you know, they didn't know the walk away, really. And so we really spent time putting these different strategies into place.

Tiffany Burns [00:26:26]: We really took a look at our systems, and we really had this strong culture of connection. We had a reduction of 36%. We had 36% reduction in behavior referrals from the fall to the spring Mhmm. In one year. And so I don't think it's just one strategy. It's like, what's working, and how do you feel about it?

Penny Williams [00:26:45]: Yeah. Yeah. And I

Erica Bare [00:26:47]: would add too, Tiffany at Walker didn't change the behavior program that they used in the school. They didn't change, like, the district adopted this is what we do for behavior. They changed the overlay. Right? And I think that's really what we tried to do with this book. We're not saying you need to throw out a system or, you know, if you're a PBIS school, if you're restorative justice, whatever the the thing is, this will work with all of those. And, also, I would always challenge educators and and families when we have like, if there's a specific strategy, you know, I'm thinking about those red and yellow cards, which just does give me a little bit of a shiver. But if if we went to that as a strategy, right, if that was the strategy, then I would wanna go to that team and say, okay. So we have the same interest.

Erica Bare [00:27:35]: Our interest is to have behavior that works at school or to reduce whatever the behavior is that we're seeing that's problematic. Like, that's what we wanna do. You want that. I want that. Joey wants that. We all want that. So how can we work together to find a strategy that's gonna meet everybody's needs? And here's the thing. Like, if if all of our kids were the same, school would be a very boring place.

Erica Bare [00:28:00]: So the approach that works with one student is not gonna work with every student. Yeah. And so this idea that, like, this is the policy for everyone, we have to have some freedom within those fences to make things that work, for the individual kids in front of us because that's that's what makes us so rich and wonderful is the diversity that we have in our spaces. And so we need to be able to think creatively and just focus on what is the thing that we all want, and we all want students who are being successful and thriving in school. So what can we do to find something that will work for everyone?

Penny Williams [00:28:36]: Mhmm. And showing up with flexibility, it

Erica Bare [00:28:39]: sounds like.

Penny Williams [00:28:41]: And I have a feeling you know Ross Greene's work because you said behavior is communication at the beginning. And one of my favorite things that he also says is if you show me an inflexible kid, I will show you an equally inflexible adult. Yes. Right? We have to model that flexibility in order to get that expectation of flexibility out of kids. Absolutely. It's so important. It teaches them so much Yeah. Just by us showing up more flexibly.

Penny Williams [00:29:10]: Yeah. Let everybody know where they can find your book and find your work online so that they can learn more from you.

Erica Bare [00:29:17]: Yeah. The best place is definitely connecting through conversation.com, our website. You can find our book. We have a bunch of free resources on there. We have a blog that talks a lot more about all of these things. Our book is on Amazon. You can also grab it through our website. And our email is there, all of the socials.

Erica Bare [00:29:36]: It's really helpful to follow us because we do, again, just share a ton of free resources and ideas and tips throughout the year. So really encourage you to do that. We have a couple of special things going on right now.

Tiffany Burns [00:29:48]: We do. So it's really easy for folks to use our book to do a book study, and we've got a special right now that's happening. They can find that on our website, www.connectingthroughconversation.com. But for your listeners, we just launched this new online course that is for parents and educators, caregivers. It's about two hours total of content broken up into, like, five to ten or last minute little lessons. And folks, if they want to get a discount for that, they just need to put in CTC podcast, and that will give them a $50 discount code Nice. For the the course. If folks want a site license for their building, then they should email us because they would get more of a discount than that.

Tiffany Burns [00:30:33]: But, yeah, for individual, they can.

Penny Williams [00:30:36]: Awesome. And I'm gonna link all of that up on the show notes for everyone so that they can find that really easily, connect with you really easily, and that's gonna be at parentingADHD and autism.com/310 for episode 310. I just wanna thank you all for the work that you're doing. I feel like we're sort of soul sisters in this mission for more connection and, you know, just a humanistic approach to helping and loving kids. And I really appreciate it, and I'm so glad that you were able to share a little bit of your time with us and some of your wisdom to help everyone listening and and all of the kids that they have in their lives.

Erica Bare [00:31:17]: Well, thank you so much. This was an absolute pleasure. It was wonderful to talk with you this morning.

Penny Williams [00:31:21]: Thank you.

Tiffany Burns [00:31:22]: Yeah. Thank you, Penny. I agree. So if you love kids, then yes. Absolutely. We're and think they're the coolest people on the planet. We're definitely related.

Penny Williams [00:31:31]: Awesome. Well, I'll see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:31:36]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHD and autism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.