Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:00:03]: In coregulation, you are lending your regulated nervous system to somebody else. And it's so important to understand that these type of coregulation bonds, they have to be predictable.

Penny Williams [00:00:20]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I'm so happy to have you all here. And I have here with me, Paulina Shkadron to talk about regulation and play, which is not a conversation that I think we've had here so far. So really excited to dive into how we can use play to help with regulation for our neurodivergent kids.

Penny Williams [00:01:08]: Will you start, Paulina, by just letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:01:13]: Sure. So thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited about this conversation because I play all day every day, and I, have a private practice. Obviously, the word plays in it. It's play to learn consulting. And it's really about guiding children and families about the intricacies of play and regulation and how all of that leads to forming stronger executive function skills where kids are starting with certain skills and, of course, leading all the way into skills that they would need in adulthood. Mhmm. So for me, my background is in speech language pathology, and I was just fortunate enough to be in a graduate school program that use play as the main methodology and it's what we've practiced.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:02:12]: It's how we learn to assess all areas of development, really. We, of course, looked at language and comprehension and how that shows up in play dynamics, what that means for social situations. What does that mean for relationships? How do you build a relationship through play that then encourages regulation in the clinician, in the parent, in the child? Because it's such a dynamic relationship that continues to flow and develop. And as I went deeper into my career, I realized that I really loved working with autistic and ADHD kids. And I really honed in on how do you use play for neurodivergent populations. And this is how I why I wound up where I am today, you know, working with kids and families and also at the same time providing professional development for other mental health professionals, teachers, educators, all on how do you actually define regulation? What play is all about because it has so many different levels and stages? And then where in the midst of that do pieces of executive functioning fall?

Penny Williams [00:03:50]: It's so complex. Right?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:03:51]: It is.

Penny Williams [00:03:51]: There's so many layers. And I feel like we don't talk about play enough. We don't play enough. And when we're having a hard time with connection with our kids or we're struggling with challenging behavior, bringing a little levity into the situation is helpful. Right? And so play is so important in that aspect and, of course, in development and so many other areas. Can we talk, though, first let's define regulation. For anybody listening who doesn't know, what is regulation and dysregulation?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:04:24]: Sure. So the way that, you know, think about yourself as an infant and when infants come into this world, they don't have the ability to, of course, regulate themselves. So they rely on a caregiver, let's say, a parent who will co regulate them.

Penny Williams [00:04:46]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:04:46]: So essentially, the way I describe it is that in coregulation, you are lending your regulated nervous system to somebody else. And it's so important to understand that these type of coregulation bonds, they have to be predictable. And, you know, we could also get into what that's like for attachment, but that's a whole other conversation.

Penny Williams [00:05:12]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:05:12]: So these type of interactions, again, they need to be predictable and the parent then gets really, really solid when it comes to reading the cues of the infant. When do I come in? When do I pull back a little bit? And then that ebb and flow of coregulation actually really continues throughout the course of our lives because there are moments as adults that we need coregulators too.

Penny Williams [00:05:40]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:05:40]: I think that's so important to understand is that coregulation isn't something that goes away. Right. Because we have moments as adults where we are actually out of capacity. And that's something that's such an important term that fits right in with regulation. When we have the resources and the capacity and we haven't been taxed all day with, let's say, as an adult, like work demands, calls, other people vying for our attention, and we have enough at the end of the day, then we can continue to regulate ourselves. And then there are days where we don't have enough to give. Right? We haven't slept well. We haven't been outside.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:06:26]: We had a really poor meals throughout the day. We feel internally we are uncomfortable or in some kind of pain and distress. All of those little tidbits impact how we can regulate at the end of the day. And then that one thing that somebody says to us can completely throw us off because we are taxed. Like, we we are done. And it's the same exact thing that happens for kids because it happens for all human beings.

Penny Williams [00:07:02]: Yeah. Yeah. And I love talking about it in relation to capacity because I think that that's something a little bit easier for parents to understand and to think about for ourselves. And, you know, if you're raising a neurodivergent child, you have had times where you have no capacity left. You are spent. And so we can kind of understand what that feels like a little bit to be able to understand our kids a little bit better. How do we incorporate play? You know, as you were talking about, we can think about the infant. The the infant has no self regulation, but we have to build to self regulation.

Penny Williams [00:07:43]: Right? We have to teach these skills and help to foster an environment where emotional regulation is not easy. I don't think it's easy for anyone.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:07:55]: I don't think so either.

Penny Williams [00:07:57]: Right. But that it's happening. Right?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:08:00]: It's not easy. It's doable. Mhmm. And that emotional regulation comes through because when it comes to play, play presents itself as having challenging circumstances. Things fall apart in play. Things don't go according to plan. Right. Even with younger kids who are attempting to figure out, like, how to fit a shape into a different structure and it's not working, they need to pause and consider whether that opening is on a different side of whatever it is that they're attempting to fit, those beginnings of problem solving, they are regulating themselves in order to be able to solve that problem.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:08:46]: Mhmm. And interestingly enough, what we see with neurodivergent kids is that there are more extremes in reactions because there isn't enough I'm gonna go back to capacity. There isn't enough capacity to, like, have a thought to pause on that thought and then to act, it's just sudden.

Penny Williams [00:09:09]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:09:10]: It's thought, action, thought, action. And every following thought just, like, over consumes, and then it consumes energy and resources.

Penny Williams [00:09:22]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:09:23]: And then they don't have enough to continue that regulation process. So, you know, what play does is that it really allows kids, like, freedom of expression, really. Like, that's creativity. When you dive into anxiety and the research in anxiety, the entered it to anxiety is creativity. And that's something that was that's, like, recently published. I could give you that information toward the end, but I think it was such an important message. Yeah. And, of course, I took it as, well, this is what play provides.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:10:04]: It provides the the mind. Right? We're talking about neurodivergent kids. It provides a neurodivergent mind with so many different avenues of creativity. Yeah. Because the play is guided by the child. And I think that's where oftentimes parents do have a hard time because they want to come in and they wanna fix the play.

Penny Williams [00:10:28]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:10:28]: And they want to tell the child where the play should go or let's say it's somebody older and we're figuring out, like, strategic moves of a board game And the parent attempts to tell the child where to go. And the longer that they work with me, they the parent themselves stops themselves and they go, oh, wait. They go, right. They didn't ask you to fix their move. I know that you see, you know, 10 steps ahead right now and you know that whatever move they made isn't going to work out well. Because the thing is they have to experience this type of failure and a little bit of, like, a dip in regulation to come out of that dip and go, oh, that didn't work out. And it doesn't mean that my entire plan failed. I can hone in on part of it and remain regulated through the entire process.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:11:31]: Right? So my nervous system is still going to be shaken up a little bit. And then as I figure out where this problem emerged from and where do I go to solve it on my own, once I solve it, I regain a regulated state.

Penny Williams [00:11:49]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:11:50]: And even through it, I can talk myself through all of the challenges and the downfalls. And it sounds complex because it is. And sometimes it looks like a magnet tower fell over, and that's the complexity. You know, they can't believe it happened because they wanted it to stay up. And I've had kids run away from that type of challenge. And it's Yeah. You know, fight, flight, incomplete, like, just hone in on that experience. And then we forget about the other two modes.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:12:26]: Everybody talks about fight flight and the other two are freeze and fawn.

Penny Williams [00:12:30]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:12:31]: You know, we we tend to forget that, like, when kids really don't know what to do and they are quite literally frozen because there's too much environmental threat, All the body wants to do is get back to a regulated state, and it's just so overwhelmed that it can't.

Penny Williams [00:12:53]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:12:54]: And those are the cues, I think, that are so important to read within a, you know, let's say within a play dynamic because then it allows me to know when to pull back, when to offer support, and then when do I challenge? Because that's the part of play that isn't talked about enough. There's a challenge component.

Penny Williams [00:13:18]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:13:18]: There's the I tell parents all the time, like, we're gonna up the ante.

Penny Williams [00:13:23]: Mhmm. Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:13:23]: And you're gonna see a little bit of dysregulation and play is supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be tough. Then you see kids start to yawn at the end of at the end of sessions, or they get either tired or hungry or both.

Penny Williams [00:13:40]: Wow. Yeah. Because they've been through it. Right?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:13:43]: They because they've been through it.

Penny Williams [00:13:44]: They've been through it. And what's standing out to me as you're talking is that problem solving is really interwoven with regulation. And we do, as parents, so often jump in and want to either protect our kids from discomfort and pain and failure or solve it for them, which I also think is really trying to, again, protect them from that discomfort. But what we do is we don't teach them how to do for themselves at all. They're not getting those problem solving skills. They're not learning independence. They're not learning self regulation. We're really robbing them of the skill building that is so very important for them to be successful in adulthood, for them to be happy in adulthood.

Penny Williams [00:14:36]: Hey, mom. I made it to my meeting on my own and on time.

Penny Williams [00:14:39]: Really? That's amazing. Go you.

Penny Williams [00:14:42]: Yeah. My mind actually feels clearer and more attentive.

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Penny Williams [00:15:33]: And it's way better than just chugging coffee and hoping for the best.

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Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:16:24]: Oh, it's such a great question because all play has a purpose.

Penny Williams [00:16:28]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:16:29]: I think that's one thing that we should highlight. All play is play.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:16:37]: You know? Like, I wanna say, like, all play is okay. All play works because it doesn't need to have a boundary. Obviously, we think about, you know, physical safety. Yes.

Penny Williams [00:16:47]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:16:48]: And then outside of that, it's really boundary less. And when you allow play to have that type of exploration without putting parameters on it from your adult point of view, then you could really see the, like, internal working model for each child. So what I mean by that is there's a certain, you know, like developmental age where kids are still kind of in cause and effect, but then it looks more complex where it's like bad guys versus good guys or somebody's getting killed, somebody's getting run over by a trade, somebody's getting thrown in jail, and parents are looking and they're horrified, like, that it's so violent. I'm going, right, like, this is actually part of development. Where else would your child be able to test out this theory if not in their play? Yeah. So the hardest part for parents is to let go.

Penny Williams [00:17:50]: Mhmm. Really. 100%.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:17:52]: Right? It's to let go and take off their, like, parent and adult hat and to think like their kid. And that's the part where parents have said is so so hard for them, especially with the kids who I work with who are neurodivergent. And it's a lot of work for the adult to look at something a child is doing and think about it as the five year old. Think about it as the 10 year old. Like, where is that idea coming from? And then if you don't have the answer, just go with the idea. Like, your child will lead you

Penny Williams [00:18:35]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:18:35]: To where the idea is meant to go. Of course, there's a clinical part of it where I'm also looking at how complex is the idea. Does it have a plan? Is it organized? What other executive function components are in it? I am not asking parents to do that.

Penny Williams [00:18:53]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:18:54]: What I'm asking for parents is to really become that play partner.

Penny Williams [00:18:58]: Okay.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:18:58]: Like, take on the character role, change your tone of voice, like, literally, like, embody that character. And then what you're actually amazingly teaching is you're going from self regulation then to self control. Because kids then start switching out of their character role to become themselves to then switch back into the character role.

Penny Williams [00:19:26]: Yeah. So they're getting practice there for sure.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:19:29]: They're getting a lot of practice. It's shifting.

Penny Williams [00:19:32]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:19:33]: Like, it's cognitive flexibility. Yeah. So they're getting a lot of practice with shifting in terms of thinking like this character, and then at the same time, maintaining themselves and thinking like themselves.

Penny Williams [00:19:49]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:19:50]: Again, it depends on the the language that I use with kids when it comes to play. Of course, depends on their comprehension

Penny Williams [00:19:57]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:19:57]: And their language needs. So I could increase my language complexity. I could lower the language complexity. It all depends on that play schema. What is it that they are attempting to, like, really play out? Now, autistic kids sometimes need to play a theme repeatedly. Right? Like, a theme needs to continue over and over again. And sometimes it's looked at unfortunately as well, that's repetitive behavior. Right?

Penny Williams [00:20:29]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:20:29]: Like, the play shouldn't look like that. And I go, well, according to whom?

Penny Williams [00:20:33]: Right. Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:20:35]: Shouldn't play look like that?

Penny Williams [00:20:37]: It should be whatever your kid needs. Right?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:20:40]: Yes. It should be whatever they need. And there must be something about that play schema that they are playing out because they don't have closure for whatever that idea is. Mhmm. They're still the fact that they're bringing it, let's say, to therapy week after week, it's still on their mind.

Penny Williams [00:20:58]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:20:59]: Which is actually an amazing thing because they are carrying an idea with them for a really long period of time.

Penny Williams [00:21:06]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:21:07]: And then they're coming back and they're either, like, showing me that they wanna play with something again or actually telling me that, like, I still have this idea in mind. I'm still thinking about it. There's something about this that isn't complete for me.

Penny Williams [00:21:23]: Mhmm. I haven't worked it all the way out yet.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:21:25]: Yes. Exactly. So when we work through it to completion, then you'll see that they will shift to a different idea. And then sometimes the ideas cycle back.

Penny Williams [00:21:36]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:21:37]: Like interest.

Penny Williams [00:21:38]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:21:38]: Highly specialized interest. They'll cycle in and they'll cycle out and then they'll cycle back. And it doesn't mean that skills are lost, which parents often ask like, well, there's regression. Right? Like, when kids have more capacity to regulate themselves and to also, like, maintain self control, which is something really amazing to watch. And then there are going to be days where they simply can't. Yeah. It's not because they've lost the skills. It's that day or what led up to it, something else was building internally, right, in the nervous system that they couldn't figure out.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:22:20]: So they have now fallen apart because here comes that coregulation wave again. They need more of my regulated system to let them know that regardless of what they're going through, our relationship is not contingent on how much regulation they need or how little, you know, they need from me.

Penny Williams [00:22:43]: Yeah. Yeah. And that's so important to point out that that relationship has to stay sort of even keeled. Right? We wanna keep that connection, and we want to sort of keep the door open is what I feel like we're we're talking about a little bit there. And by showing up in a way through coregulation that says you're safe, I'm here to support if you need it, you know, all there's so many messages around that for kids, and that relationship is just invaluable. It's everything. One thing that I sort of struck me as you were talking is that you're not saying that a parent needs to challenge during play and do all these things that are gonna teach skills. We're just supposed to show up and play.

Penny Williams [00:23:34]: Right?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:23:35]: Yes. And it's harder than it sounds. Yeah. Because Yeah. The challenge for parents is to connect to their inner child.

Penny Williams [00:23:44]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:23:45]: Because oftentimes, they will start to see themselves in their kids.

Penny Williams [00:23:50]: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we we wanna control. You know? It's really hard for us to let go of control as a parent when we're spending time with our kid. But this is something that that I've talked a lot about too. Like, this playtime, you can't judge what they're doing or saying. You can't guide.

Penny Williams [00:24:10]: It should be totally child led. Right? You can't, you know, be distracted by other things. Like, you just need to be there and in it and at the mercy, for lack of a better term, of your kid and what they want to play. Right? You need to go with wherever they lead, and that's where the good stuff comes.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:24:32]: Yes. And that uninterrupted time, like you said, is so important. Mhmm. Like, distraction free. It doesn't have to be two hours that you're spending on the floor. Like, give, you know, fifteen minutes or whatever you think that you have.

Penny Williams [00:24:47]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:24:47]: Because we started this conversation talking about parents' capacities. Right? Mhmm. Especially parents of neurodivergent kids. And when I talk to parents, I've had that mentioned to me. They say, you know, I hear oftentimes you talk about the child's capacity. And what about my capacity as the parent? There are some days where I don't have enough to give. So my question becomes, well, how do you take care of your own regulation needs?

Penny Williams [00:25:15]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:25:16]: And what does that mean for you as the adult? And the most important thing to understand is that everybody regulates in a different way. You know, you hear people talk about yoga. Right? It doesn't mean that it's for everybody. Right. It's not a blanket statement of I think people tell me to do yoga, so I probably should. I don't find that regulated. I can't regulate myself through a yoga class, which means I don't wanna force myself into something that other people have said works for them because they have a different nervous system. Yep.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:25:53]: And I have a different nervous system. So over the years, I've learned what I need for my own regulation needs. And that could change a little bit on a daily basis, but then that's your own toolbox for you.

Penny Williams [00:26:10]: Mhmm. And it's so necessary.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:26:14]: Yes. It's it's so it's so necessary. And sometimes it doesn't you know, parents ask, well, when during the day is, like, a good time for that uninterrupted play? And for me, it's when do you feel like you have the most capacity? Yeah. For some, it's it's in the beginning of the day depending on work schedules. For some, it's at the end of the day. For some, it's maybe when the kids come home from school. It really, again, depends on what's gonna work for your family. Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:26:49]: What's gonna work for your family dynamics so that it's not something that's on the calendar, and you say, okay. It's 04:30, and we have to play right now.

Penny Williams [00:26:58]: That's not gonna work.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:26:59]: Right. That's at the point because then you're you're bringing stress into play.

Penny Williams [00:27:04]: Yep.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:27:04]: And it's not what we wanna do. We like you said, we wanted to be child led. And by child led, sometimes parents think that, well, then it's a free for all. And it's child led. It's a free for all. There are no boundaries. But the beautiful thing about play is that within it, when it comes to development, kids make up their own roles Mhmm. And set their own rules Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:27:32]: When you allow for it to happen. And, sure, you could encourage it a little bit by saying, well, I know that you gave me the job of this character. Can you let me know what the rules are? Like, for this, you know, little person who I'm holding or maybe I'm an animal. I go, well, are there places that this animal is not supposed to go? Do I stay, you know, in my pod? Does this animal talk? Because and then here comes, like, that cognitive shift. And I say, well, because I'm thinking that you're asking me to become the animal. I'm gonna start talking like the animal. And they think that it's, like, the funniest thing, and then you hear this really, like, genuine laughter.

Penny Williams [00:28:22]: Yeah.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:28:23]: Because sometimes laughter can be a a dysregulating laughter, and you can tell that apart from a genuine laughter. Dysregulating laughter is sometimes what you hear adults do when they're uncomfortable. Yeah. They laugh to attempt to mask that discomfort. Kids do that too. Mhmm. And then there's also that full on joyful laughter because they have lost themselves in the play. And that's what they're looking for from the parent.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:28:55]: That type of back and forth for the parent to also lose themselves and to just become the character and do something that is unexpected. And then the, you know, the problems in the play will come up on their own Yeah. Because that's what play is meant to provide. Because then the character breaks a few rules, like

Penny Williams [00:29:19]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:29:20]: As a joke. And then goes, oops, I forgot. I forgot. I should probably tell the character to stop breaking rules. And then that's where those boundaries come in play and kids get to experience, like, what is it like setting these roles? What does it mean to set a couple of rules of what do I expect in this play scene to happen? And that way, they can also test out what's working and what's not working.

Penny Williams [00:29:52]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:29:53]: And again, going back to what you mentioned, like, they need the parents or the caregivers undivided attention.

Penny Williams [00:30:00]: Totally.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:30:01]: Right? Like, no phones. Yeah. No screens.

Penny Williams [00:30:05]: Mhmm.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:30:05]: And sometimes, I just wanna mention, sometimes it looks like physical play. Sometimes it's hide and seek. Yeah. Physical play is is part of development. And again, it doesn't matter chronologically how old the child is. Sometimes kids go to is physical play because they don't have the complexity complexity yet for other types of play.

Penny Williams [00:30:27]: Right.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:30:27]: So let play be physical then. Then it's hide and seek, then it's building forts, then it's, you know, like, playing cops and robbers. Like, something that is movement based because that is also still play. Mhmm. And it's still engaging.

Penny Williams [00:30:43]: Mhmm. And movement is regulating.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:30:46]: And movement yes. Thank you. And movement is regulating. Yeah. Exactly.

Penny Williams [00:30:51]: Yeah. So much good stuff here. And I hope that the parents and caregivers listening are going to work in some play, not schedule it, like I would normally say. Because we don't like, we need to leave the expectation out of it. Right? I think that's part of it is leaving the expectation out of it, just going full in on what our kid wants to do and engaging. And that also makes them feel special and valued, right, when we do that. And there's there's so many skills that are being built in just the ways that you've talked about it in the last thirty minutes. Yes.

Penny Williams [00:31:30]: There are so many skills that we're working on also, and that is so valuable, especially when you can build skills while having fun, while not, you know, trying to teach, but it is teaching sort of inherently. Paulina, will you tell everybody where they can find you online so they can learn more from you and potentially work with you?

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:31:54]: Yes. Of course. So I am at Play to Learn Consulting, on Instagram, on Facebook. It's all the same. And you could also find me through my website to learn more about my background and my work and the reason that I do this. So the website is playtolearnconsulting.com.

Penny Williams [00:32:17]: And I will link all of that up for everyone in the show notes, which you can find at parentingADHDandautism.com/304 for episode 304. Thank you again so much, Polina, for being here. I really enjoyed this conversation, and I know it's gonna be so helpful for the families who are listening.

Polina Shkadron, MA/SLP, MSNE, CTP, ADHD-RSP [00:32:38]: Thank you for having me. It was so great.

Penny Williams [00:32:40]: Yeah. I will see everybody on the next episode. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at the behaviorrevolution.com. Magic Mind is offering beautifully complex listeners 20% off one time purchases and 48% off subscriptions. Go to magicmind.com/beautifully with code beautifully 20.