Casey Ehrlich [00:00:03]: What's unique about PDA is that the root cause of setting off that nervous system is directly tied to perceived losses of autonomy and equality, meaning if the child perceives that they don't have freedom, true freedom and choice, or that someone or something is above them, they will subconsciously perceive threat and have a nervous system response.

Penny Williams [00:00:30]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:54]: Welcome back to Beautifully Complex, everyone. Glad to have you here as well as doctor Casey Ehrlich, who is here to talk about pathological demand avoidance or PBA. And this is actually something I've never covered on the podcast before. So I'm so excited that we are gonna learn what it is, what it isn't, how to maybe decipher if your kid's behavior or the signals you're seeing are kind of linked that way, and just everything we need to know about PDA. Well, not everything, obviously. We have 30 minutes. But everything that will get us started in understanding PDA, we are going to talk about. But, Casey, will you first just introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do?

Casey Ehrlich [00:01:40]: Sure. Hi, everyone. Thanks for having me, Penny. It's great to be here. My name is Casey. I am the founder of At Peace Parents and also a mother to a PDA son and another son whose neurotype is still unclear to me, like many of us with neurodiverse homes. Yep. They are almost 106.

Casey Ehrlich [00:02:04]: And in my past life, I was a social science researcher. And I bring, sort of, the scientific process, empirical research blended with my parenting experience and the work I do with families to support just this one specific parenting experience, which is that of raising a pathologically demand avoidant child or teen. So it's pretty specialized and happy to talk about whatever is helpful to the audience.

Penny Williams [00:02:34]: Yeah. Let's just start with defining it. What is pathological demand avoidance?

Casey Ehrlich [00:02:40]: Yeah. So it's a great question because there's actually debate about what PDA actually is. So one of the terms for PDA that I like the most and think is the most accurate is pervasive drive for autonomy. Mhmm. Because while our kids definitely are avoidant of many things, there's lots of other behaviors that aren't avoidant at all. They can be fixated, controlling, manipulative, targeted, aggressive, shutdown behaviors. And I think there's a lot of root causes that can cause avoidance, like sensory pain from, you know, a space being too brightly lit or the sounds too complex a child is going to rationally avoid that space or if there's repeated negative social feedback it's rational to avoid school right so I think it's useful to clarify what it actually is. My definition, which I think is the one that describes the causality the most clearly, is a child or teen with a survival drive for autonomy that consistently overrides other survival instincts like eating, hygiene, sleep safety, and or toileting.

Casey Ehrlich [00:04:00]: So what does this mean in real life? Like, this is how I think about it. All of us have brains that have an amygdala. Right? We all have that little part of our brain that's, like, scanning on a subconscious level for what's safe, dangerous, or presenting a life threat. And all of us have the same human nervous system responses. We have fight flight where we might be aggressive, oppositional, say, or do things that aren't who we are as a person if we're perceiving danger. We have freeze, which is a hybrid state of, like, being in fight flight, but also shut down. Then we have collapse. We can also have fawning and appeasement.

Casey Ehrlich [00:04:43]: What's unique about PDA is that the root cause of setting off that nervous system is directly tied to perceived losses of autonomy and equality. Meaning, if the child perceives that they don't have freedom true freedom and choice or that someone or something is above them, they will subconsciously perceive threat and have a nervous system response. And so that can look like fight flight and opposition and defiance, but not always. So I'm gonna give you kind of an extreme example, which was true for my son to illustrate what I'm talking about, but it doesn't necessarily always play out in this way. Okay. Before I knew about PDA and before I even had heard the word neurodiversity, I knew something was different about my son, but I sort of didn't trust that that was true because he was my youngest. My first. Sorry.

Casey Ehrlich [00:05:42]: Not my youngest. My first. Yeah. And he was extraordinarily difficult from the moment he came out of me, and I would always say, like, he just seems he's been uncomfortable since he was out of the womb. Right? And he needed constant undivided attention and, like, 1 on 1 attention and me sort of doing things for him and playing for him and improving to prevent him destroying things or melting down. And he seemed to be 2 totally different versions even from infancy Mhmm. Where he was constantly screaming when he was with me, but it was only with other people that he seemed to be able to calm. But the survival drive for autonomy overriding other survival instincts was very clear in certain instances.

Casey Ehrlich [00:06:30]: For example, right before he went into burnout, we took the kids camping, and there was a campfire and we were roasting marshmallows and he kept wanting to be near the fire. Right? Like, 4 and a half year old common behavior, not necessarily indicative of anything different, But the more we were gently saying, like, hey, Cooper, like, don't get near the fire. You know? Hey, bud. We need to stay away from the fire. Hey. Let's eat our marshmallows over here. The more we were trying to prevent him from doing something, the more he was fixated on, like, touching the fire, getting in the fire, essentially.

Casey Ehrlich [00:07:10]: So in this case, it's

Casey Ehrlich [00:07:11]: an instance of, like, his brain perceiving more danger around not having freedom and choice of, like, movement and decisions then the instinct around touching fire and you'll get burned. And so we see this a lot with PDA children and teens over time as they move towards burnout, where it's like maybe they're, like, increasingly getting picky with eating or increasingly pushing bedtime back or they're having trouble with toilet training. And so the common response to that is traditional, more behaviorally, more exposure based approaches of, like, okay. We're gonna beat it. We're gonna keep doing it. We're gonna give rewards for it. Not to say that there's anything wrong with that, But with PDA kids, those perceived losses of autonomy and the fact that we're putting ourselves above them is actually stressing the nervous system to the point where they don't improve on those things. They can actually, like, have a toileting regression and need to use diapers or not be able to go in the toilet and go in the bathroom when they're, like, 7 or 8.

Casey Ehrlich [00:08:23]: Or they might stop eating altogether, which is what happened with my son where for almost 2 years, he only ate Lace potato chips, popcorn, and Pirate's booty. Or, you know, the more we approach in sort of these, like, more traditional ways, it's activating that root cause. And they're they're not eating when they're hungry, and they're not sleeping when they're tired. The survival drive for autonomy is actually overriding that.

Casey Ehrlich [00:08:50]: And then the other thing we see is what the nervous system does to get back to a place of safety. So when they feel below or neurocept that they're below, they do what's called equalizing, which I call the behavioral expression of the disability, which is, you know, maybe in the moment, you're like, hey, can you can you put your shoes away? Like, you just came in from school, put your shoes away. They might comply and do what you say, but then they equalize. They might go over and knock a bunch of your things off of the table. They may pour out spices if you are cooking, or they might go to the weakest in the family, which is a sibling, and, like, hover around them and accidentally knock their things over or, like, whisper to them that they're stupid and not doing something right. So it's actually, like, targeted behavior Right. To get above another in a controlling, manipulative, or aggressive way to get back to that nervous system safety. And what's confusing is it can happen where, like, they mask or, like, they'd look totally typical all day at school

Casey Ehrlich [00:09:59]: Or they look totally typical when you're 1 on 1 with them. And then as soon as they come home from school, they start escalating and targeting with equalizing behavior. And it sort of makes no sense until you understand the logic.

Penny Williams [00:10:16]: Yeah.

Casey Ehrlich [00:10:17]: Right? And I think for discerning what it is, often parents come to PDA either if their child is in burnout, they're having a significant struggle with a basic need, or just literally everything that they've tried according to, like, research, education, norms, parenting just has made things escalate.

Penny Williams [00:10:38]: Yes.

Casey Ehrlich [00:10:39]: And so sometimes that's what brings parents to be like, oh, this might be it. Because observationally in their home, like, they have been consistent, and they have tried all the different, like, gentle parenting, 123 magic, positive discipline therapy, and it's made things worse.

Penny Williams [00:10:57]: Yeah. So what I hear you saying is a lack of autonomy actually feels unsafe Yes. Yeah. To their nervous system.

Casey Ehrlich [00:11:07]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:11:07]: And so their responses are trying to gain autonomy back because that's what their nervous system needs in order to feel safe. And we know when we feel safe, we feel good, we can feel connected. Things are doable. Right? Like, that safety is super important for everyday life. Right?

Casey Ehrlich [00:11:27]: Yeah. But it's very counterintuitive because Yeah. What's the premise of our logic about parenting? It's, like, we need firm boundaries and strict limits and someone in control to make our kids feel safe. And I think that's true for many, many children, but for these kids, it can actually make them not feel safe and not connected. Yeah. Yeah. You said it really well.

Penny Williams [00:11:51]: And the structure, like, we do. We think as parents that structure creates a sense of security and safety. Can you have structure while also honoring the needs of PDA by leaning more into autonomy?

Casey Ehrlich [00:12:13]: Yeah. So the way I like to sort of reframe this because I think most PDA kids are also autistic even if they don't, quote, look like that on the surface.

Casey Ehrlich [00:12:23]: Right.

Casey Ehrlich [00:12:24]: Many of them are very, my son's, like, very social, outgoing, makes eye contact when regulated. So, like, it's hard for people to believe that he's autistic, even though he has an autism diagnosis. And so he does need rhythms, and he does need predictability, but the predictability comes from my predictable response.

Casey Ehrlich [00:12:46]: Right.

Casey Ehrlich [00:12:46]: Like, I'm always gonna prioritize safety and connection over, like, correcting something in the moment or him completing a task. I'm gonna lower demands according to his nervous system. So I am very predictable and structured in the logic of how I parent.

Casey Ehrlich [00:13:03]: It doesn't look like that from the outside because I'm

Casey Ehrlich [00:13:03]: following his lead. Right? And, I'm a pattern you might see I'm gonna tell a story from my own life where Yeah. I was constantly, like, searching for, like, if I just get this compression shirt or if I get this fidget or, like, if I get this toy that he seemed really interested in that one time, like, he'll get over this or he'll outgrow it. Or, you know, if we find the activity, he's gonna latch onto. So my husband, I remember when we first moved to Michigan from Washington DC, he took him ice skating. And my son loved it, and he was so into it. He was regulated, and he appeared typical. And and our conclusion was, like, oh, maybe this is gonna be what fixes it.

Casey Ehrlich [00:14:00]: Like, he'll get really into hockey

Casey Ehrlich [00:14:02]: Right.

Casey Ehrlich [00:14:02]: Or ice skating. So the next weekend, I was like, okay, bud, like, let's go ice skating, the 2 of us. And he refused to get his skates on, refused to get on the ice. We never even got on the ice. Right? He melted down, tears. I was frustrated. And it was very befuddling to me because he had gone out and, like, been great at ice skating and really loved it. But the 2 things that were going on was, like, the novelty wore off and all of a sudden the energy I had around it was, like, expectation and agenda.

Casey Ehrlich [00:14:37]: Yeah. And his subconscious brain perceived that and then he avoided it. Yeah. So until you understand the logic, I think the experience for parents is, like, nothing seems to make sense. Like, why is this so paradoxical? Why does this work one day and not another? And often parents are, like, working through the sensory processing or ADHD lens, and it, like, sort of helps because there's that in the mix, but there's something else missing.

Penny Williams [00:15:08]: Right.

Casey Ehrlich [00:15:08]: Or they come in through the autism pathway and do the, like, ABA or the more behavioral routine oriented approaches and things get worse. So those are the two ways that parents sort of land on PDA.

Penny Williams [00:15:25]: It makes sense to me that autonomy feels safe and secure. Right? Like, I have anxiety. I talk a lot about anxiety. And when I feel in control of something, I have less anxiety, I feel more safe, I feel more security, even more predictability. So to me, that makes a lot of sense that, like, autonomy means survival to some nervous systems. I'm wondering as you're talking, as a parent, would we ask for their input more? So instead of saying, let's go ice skating. And my instinct too as a parent is to lead. Right? We wanna lead them to what we think is gonna be good for them or what we think they should do.

Penny Williams [00:16:13]: And so I guess, really, my question is, how do we balance that between asking them what they want to do, but also, you know, prioritizing our own goals or boundaries or things like that? How does that play out?

Casey Ehrlich [00:16:27]: Well, it depends because, you know, the way I view PDA and the families I work with are usually families who you know end up in crisis and it isn't a lot the luxury like a lot of them don't have the luxury of like how do I prioritize my own needs when my child is deeply in burnout and like Right. For sure. Not able to leave their room or attend school or sleep. Right?

Penny Williams [00:16:54]: Yeah.

Casey Ehrlich [00:16:55]: I think over the long term, it's a really great question. I think the first thing I would say is, like, we really have to relearn our children, and this can be very difficult when we have a PDA child. Because, like, if they're anything like my son, he would not speak to me. Like, I couldn't have conversations, direct questions, still activate him,

Casey Ehrlich [00:17:19]: even initiating conversation without him being ready to talk about something. So I, for a couple years, would get growls or stop talking in response. So it wasn't even like we could go

Casey Ehrlich [00:17:20]: into collaborative problem solving. Right. So response. So it wasn't even like we could go into collaborative problem solving.

Casey Ehrlich [00:17:36]: Right. Right.

Casey Ehrlich [00:17:36]: I think for a young child, the way we kind of had to get back to a place of trust was through a lot of play. And what that looked like for me, an hour a day playing with him, and it was very tedious, but it was very important for our relationship where, like, I would just go in his room. I would set my phone outside the room and, like, it started with pure sensory play, right, where we would throw stuffies up in the air and laugh at them and then, like, throw them up again and laugh, or he'd jump on the bed and I'd throw stuffies at him, like for an hour. Right? And then like Mhmm. He would climb in and out of the crib and I would climb into the crib with him. He'd get out. He'd want me to like change his diaper, feed him again. We'd take a nap and we'd rotate through that for like an hour every day.

Casey Ehrlich [00:18:31]: And I do have families that I work with whose kids are nonverbal or nonspeaking. And, actually, like, it's not that different than what some families have to go through because there's not communication. Right. Like, you can't actually talk about things with your kids. Right?

Casey Ehrlich [00:18:48]: So I think 2 things, when you are using language, using declarative language, like, in the example you gave of, like, now what I know now, I might have said, like, oh, you had so much fun at ice skating last week with daddy, period. And he probably would have been, like, stop talking or, and that would have been my data point to be, like, oh, he doesn't wanna go, but, like, I didn't even consider that. I was just like, he likes it. Let's go. Or really getting into the spirit of offerings with an energy of, like, I'm putting this out there so that you know it's there, but, like, I have no agenda about whether or not we go ice skating. Right? It's just like Mhmm. I might say, like, oh, the ice skating rink is open. Or, you know, like, start getting out his hat and his gloves, And he might come over, and I would be like, I kinda feel like ice skating.

Casey Ehrlich [00:19:46]: And he might be like, no. And then I would pivot. Right? That's what it looked like in the very beginning of, like, rebuilding an understanding of him. I also couldn't see the child behind the threat response. Like, he was very much, a lot of the time, sort of like a feral animal or shut down. And so I couldn't see much of who he was. I didn't feel like I understood him, and I also had a hard time trusting that he was, like, a good kid because he was aggressive towards me, screaming a lot, you know, biting, hitting, kicking, screaming, not doing anything I have to do.

Penny Williams [00:20:27]: Right. It's easy to kind of say, well, that's their personality. Totally. It's not.

Casey Ehrlich [00:20:36]: It's not.

Penny Williams [00:20:36]: But I think we ascribe it to that as you're talking. That's why I was thinking is, like, well, we would assume that that is their personality, that those are their character traits. Right? And then we would judge them because it's what we do as humans. Yeah. Right? And then we're wrong, and we're escalating things. Like, that confusion that you've talked about several times now, I'm really starting to, like, feel it Yeah. With you. Right? Like, oh my gosh.

Penny Williams [00:21:05]: Well, he liked ice skating. It was, like, the best time of his life 2 days ago. And now he's like, I'm never doing that again. And you're thinking, what am I missing? Yeah. Right? And and this is what you're missing, maybe, the PDA, the difference in the nervous system response.

Casey Ehrlich [00:21:24]: Yeah. Because we worked through a sensory processing disorder lens for about a year Mhmm. And a, like, more gentle parenting lens, which did help. And that's, like, what also can be confusing because he does have sensory issues. Right? But they were very fluctuating dependent on how activated his nervous system was. And, like Right. He wouldn't use the tools. Right? Like, he would scream because my younger son, who was then like 23, would be like making noises next to him with a Lego, and he'd scream as if he was in pain.

Casey Ehrlich [00:21:59]: And I'd bring his headphones over, and he would throw them back at me and refuse. And if I tried to support him to wear them, it was like a huge, feral meltdown. So it was very confusing because I felt like I couldn't figure out a way to help him, and I didn't understand also why he would avoid things that I knew he could do. Mhmm. Like, for example, when when we would be doing something he would want to do, Put his shoes on, get his coat on, get out the door, get in the car, maybe even, like, try and put his seat belt on, but, like, if I was initiating something, he wouldn't do any of that, and he would physically fight me. Like, the number of times his back was arched, and he was, like, kicking with all the adrenaline at me just when I was trying to get his car seat on. And I would be like,

Casey Ehrlich [00:22:52]: I don't know what's happening.

Casey Ehrlich [00:22:53]: Like, it can't be the car seat if one day you jump in and it's totally fine, and the next day, you're acting like I'm trying to kill you. Like, what's the difference? And the difference was autonomy.

Penny Williams [00:23:14]: So I'm kind of hearing, like, we need to step back and notice things out loud. Like, I noticed you had a great time ice skating on Saturday and wait. Or provide opportunities and wait. Like, it seems like there's a common running theme to stop talking so much as the parent because we dictate. Right? Or it feels controlling even if we're not trying to control. Like, when you were like, hey, let's go ice skating, you were thinking, I want him to be that happy again. Right? Yeah. Like, it was totally an amazing parent intention, and it completely backfired.

Penny Williams [00:23:58]: Yeah. And that can be, like, the most confusing thing in the world. But, like, yeah, if you just say, wow, I noticed that you had this great time, and then you just wait. Wait for his input. You're giving him that autonomy, and you don't have to, like, keep talking and keep trying. Right? If you just was something Seth Perler mentioned to me several years ago, who's an executive function coach, and he was like, we talk too much if we would just notice something and then zip it. Yeah. No matter how long it takes, just zip it and wait.

Penny Williams [00:24:35]: It will come, which was life changing for me. But it sounds like a very similar strategy could be really helpful for a PDA in the examples that you're giving.

Casey Ehrlich [00:24:46]: Yeah. Absolutely. I think also what I'm gonna say is gonna sound contra controversial, but I'm just gonna go for it because it's Yep. Go for it. Their root cause of their nervous system activation is the need for autonomy and equality. Mhmm. But that also means feeling equal to or above. Because if we're going back to what you said, Penny, of, like, in my reptilian brain and my most primal part of the brain as a human, what makes me guaranteed that I'll survive? It's if I can escape and do what I need to do and if I'm a more dominant creature.

Casey Ehrlich [00:25:22]: Right? If we're not in the mammalian safe and social, it's just like the pure reptilian, Then if we can really lean into that as, like, this is what's making my kid move towards burnout. This is what's making my kid, like, disabling them from eating like it was for my child, for my son. What if I looked at that root cause and I did everything within my power while still staying alive, keeping my family safe and stable, which is a big task? How can I give my son as much autonomy as possible and opportunities to be above me? Okay. Whether that's physically above me where he you know, every time I speak to him, it's just changed recently, but for 5 years, I would sit on the ground and wait for him to initiate contact, right, physically below him. When we first started eating as a family together, he had the autonomy not to eat with us. We did the equality accommodation of, like, he would go sit on top of our van. Right? And, like, what's gonna come up for parents? They have to sit at the dinner table. They can't sit on top of the van.

Casey Ehrlich [00:26:30]: That's rude. The neighbors think we're weird. You know, we share a driveway, so it is weird. And, like, he could fall. But I was willing to take those little risks because of how much it benefited his nervous system to be above me. Also let him win every single game, 1 on 1. Right? And parents are always like, that's not fair to the sibling. I started 1 on 1, right, in a therapeutic environment, in my home environment when it was 1 on 1.

Casey Ehrlich [00:26:59]: Every single game he wins. And it's only now that, like, he can tolerate because I've brought down all of that that nervous system activation. He has a window, and he's in his thinking brain. He can actually tolerate losing, which he does at school with his brother. But in order to get him there, I had to go against the conventional wisdom and assumption that kids need to get used to losing. Right? So it's not rocket science to, like, let your kid climb on the back of a couch or to win chutes and ladders with you, but it's our underlying sensation as parents that we're doing it wrong that prevents us because Right. You know? And I still have the voice inside my head that's like he needs to learn how to lose. He needs to get used to losing.

Casey Ehrlich [00:27:48]: But for a PDA kid, it's often, actually, how many times can I let him feel above me by winning in the home so that when he goes out in the world, he has a window? He stayed in his thinking brain with me to learn the game, and so when he goes out, he has access to the skill Mhmm. Right, of playing competitively. Yeah. But that's very counterintuitive based on, like, the conventional wisdom.

Penny Williams [00:28:17]: Yeah. Well, even if we think of a family structure, like, the parents are supposed to be in control. Right? If we if we listen to what society says, we're supposed to be in control, we're the authority, and that's for a myriad of reasons, but it creates a higher a hierarchy that is counter to what you're telling us PDA kids need, that they need to feel more dominant. And when you said, like, this is our primal instinct of survival, so many light bulbs went off in my head because it is really hard to accept that your kid needs to feel like they dominate you. Right? Or that anyone does. It doesn't feel good. Like, it feels unnatural, but it's actually supernatural when you think about it in those terms of, like, you know, the dinosaurs chasing me. I need to win in order to survive.

Penny Williams [00:29:14]: But I'm wondering, as you said, like, he had to win, and that that's counter to what our instincts are as parents. Like, we talk a lot about kids need to make mistakes and learn from them. Right? So they learn that they can do hard things or that they learn perseverance and resilience. So how does that look different with a kid with PDA?

Casey Ehrlich [00:29:37]: Yeah. So I I like to think of this sequentially, and I like to think of this as really tying back to, like, getting to know your PDA child through observation and, like, connection. Because most parents, I think, are gonna come to PDA like a true, like, I think my kid is PDA, or I know without a shadow of a doubt my kid is PDA, when it tips over into being burnout or it's clearly a nervous system disability where they are disabled from accessing life, either in their basic needs or secondary needs like going to school, leaving the house, etcetera. So I think like the concern in that time when you are relearning how to be with them and reestablishing or establishing for the first time true felt safety with them, like subconsciously, So we're developing the relationship from a different level of felt safety. We're bringing down their nervous system activation over time, and we are supporting them to spend more time in their thinking brain through accommodation. That is the period where we're not pushing resilience. We're giving them the opportunity to have a window of tolerance so they can even have resilience. Right? It's like someone who just experienced trauma, you're not gonna go right into exposure therapy.

Casey Ehrlich [00:31:02]: Right? And I've done both. Like, I have panic disorder. I have struggled with panic attacks since I was 26. I also have done a lot of trauma work, and I think there is a time and a place for it, right, for both. But I think, usually, when parents hit that point of, like, something's gotta change, nothing is working, my kid's in burnout, things are falling apart, which is generally when I meet them, I'm teaching them how to do a totally different paradigm. Right? Like and it's probably gonna take, like, 6 to 12 months. Because you can go see any therapist, talk to any teacher, or any other parent, and they're gonna tell you, what about building resilience? And what about frustration tolerance? And what about being a sturdy parent? And so that's not wrong. It's just not like me helping people turn the ship is, like, not focusing on that.

Casey Ehrlich [00:31:58]: And what I tell them is, like, as you develop that window and learn your child better, you're going to see how you can dance on the edge of that threat response. Right? And so it might mean like this is going to sound like maybe it's not getting to exactly your question, but, like, let me give you an example. When my son was deep in burnout, he needed constant 1 on 1 attention at all times. And if I would go to the bathroom, like, I would come back and, like, he would be, like, attacking my other son. Right? So it was, like, I was constantly making this cost benefit of, like, can I sit down and have a meal? No. I have to eat standing up with a frozen meal. Right? And if you're a parent of a PDA child, you're gonna know what I'm talking about. Yeah.

Casey Ehrlich [00:32:43]: But once I got my son's nervous system down and reestablished trust and he was spending less time in his survival brain, then his threshold for about 2 years was me being like bud I'm going to eat for 5 minutes before I play with you right so we had to go way far back to like develop a tolerance now it's like hey, bud. Like, you can jump on your iPad. Like, I'm not gonna go on the trampoline today, but that was 5 years later.

Penny Williams [00:33:13]: Yeah.

Casey Ehrlich [00:33:13]: And so I think parents I see this time and again with parents getting stuck where they pull away the accommodations too soon because their child is doing better

Penny Williams [00:33:24]: Yep.

Casey Ehrlich [00:33:25]: And they push too hard because they're scared, like, oh, my kid needs to go back to school now

Casey Ehrlich [00:33:30]: And they lose that child led aspect. And so I'm still trying to let my son guide me, like, with football. Like, his special interest is football, and he plays tackle football, and he plays flag football. I never thought he would do this type of thing. I mean, he, like, wouldn't leave the house for a year and a half and has been in occupational therapy for, like, gross motor planning and all that stuff for 5 years, more than 5 years. So I was not imagining he would be on a tackle football team. But he expressed interest. My husband used to play football, so he volunteered to be a coach so he could be the safe nervous system.

Casey Ehrlich [00:34:10]: And that is how we pushed a little bit of resilience because he wanted to do football, and there were 2 out of 4 practices when he would have a big meltdown, teeth chattering, screaming. My husband would have to carry him off the field, deescalate, but encourage him to go back the next day, and he would. Right? And this year, for tackle football, he I think that only happened once. So it's like, I would never push him to do a sport he wasn't interested in, but if he decides he's interested in something, I'm gonna dance on the edge of that threshold using our relationship to help him do something he wants to do. And I actually think he's one of the most resilient kids I've ever met because he's gone through so much trauma and hardship. And, like, he's still out there. He knows he's PDA. He's trying to make friends.

Casey Ehrlich [00:35:01]: He's compassionate towards other neurodivergent kids. Like, he's a very sensitive, loving child with a nervous system disability. And so if that's not resilience, like, I don't know what is. Mhmm. It just doesn't look like neurotypical child who might not have the same challenges that he has had. And Yeah. I have a lot of compassion for him.

Penny Williams [00:35:25]: And you parent the child that you have. Yeah. Like, we're taught to all parent the exact same way as if we all had the exact same kid and they were all a small version of us, and none of that is reality.

Casey Ehrlich [00:35:36]: We have

Penny Williams [00:35:37]: to parent the kid that we have. And so what I also heard you saying though is, like, sometimes you have to go backward before you can go forward. Like, to climb the ladder, you might have to go back down to the ground and work on your foundation and what the ladder is standing on, and then start climbing the ladder again. I think we worry about that as parents. We worry about having to go backward. That feels like we shouldn't. Right? We're shoulding on ourselves again. We shouldn't have to go backwards, that that's a problem.

Penny Williams [00:36:08]: But sometimes going backwards actually makes when we go forward all that better. Yeah. And, yeah, like, we just have to accept that. Anything else that we need to know today about PDA? We've already talked for a long time. I can't believe it. It feels like 5 minutes because I'm learning, so I'm, like, soaking it all up. But what else do you wanna tell parents in this conversation?

Casey Ehrlich [00:36:33]: I think the main thing I want listeners to hear is, like, it's not your fault. Right? Like, it is that you're not crazy. You've always kind of known that something was different. I'm sure that deep in your gut and intuition, like, you know, if you're hearing what I'm saying and everything makes sense, like, you can trust yourself. Right? And if it doesn't, you can be like, oh, that's interesting. I'm doing the right thing for my kid. Because as you said, Penny, it's like, we have to parent the kid that's right in front of us. And I think parents of PDA ers often get blamed for their child's behavior.

Casey Ehrlich [00:37:10]: They don't have support. They're isolated, and they're constantly made to feel like they're bad parents. And that's like why I created the business that I did because I named it at peace parents because it's to support parents to find peace in their unique journey with their PDA child or teen. And to, like, feel confident and empowered even if they're doing a parenting approach that looks from the outside as, like, quote, not good parenting.

Penny Williams [00:37:40]: Right. Yeah. We have to be able to separate ourselves from that judgment and and not worry about it, which can be really hard. Right?

Casey Ehrlich [00:37:47]: Oh, it's it's, like, impossible not to worry about it at all. But it's, like

Penny Williams [00:37:52]: Totally.

Casey Ehrlich [00:37:53]: Not letting it drive our decisions.

Casey Ehrlich [00:37:55]: Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:37:56]: For me, it was always, like, in those public spaces where things were going really wrong. I would just remind myself, like, he's not giving me a hard time, he's having a hard time, and all of these people who are staring at us right now do not know our story.

Casey Ehrlich [00:38:10]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:38:10]: And that that judgment doesn't matter in that moment. We can worry about it before and after, and, you know, have to heal from it, and all of the things because it is impactful. But trying to figure out how to ground the moment that we're in to focus is something I had to work really hard at, honestly, and still sometimes have to work a little bit at. Right? Because we're human beings. But tell everybody where they can find you and learn more from you and work with you.

Casey Ehrlich [00:38:43]: Sure. So, feel free to join us on Instagram or Facebook at at peace parents, and we have a website, www.atbeaseparents.com. And if you're just starting and interested, I would recommend our free clarity class, which goes through the 5 characteristics of PDA with examples to help you determine if it fits your child with some PDF handouts to support you.

Penny Williams [00:39:12]: That's amazing. And I will link all of that up for everyone in the show notes, which are at parentingadhdandautism.com/293 for episode 293. Thank you, Casey, for the work that you're doing and for being here and sharing your experiences so openly. It's a real gift for anybody who's struggling, anybody who's thinking this might be PDA, or maybe it's not, but they see themselves in your struggle and feel a little less alone and a little more empowered. So I appreciate you so much for being here.

Casey Ehrlich [00:39:49]: Yeah. Thanks for the invitation. It was a lot of fun.

Penny Williams [00:39:52]: And I will see everybody next time. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:39:57]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.