Deborah Farmer Kris [00:00:03]: There have been characters like Julia and Sesame Street, but it's different when it's it's just there. It's just that this is the lead, and it's not like here's a character we introduce to kind of represent. It simply is a group of friends, and everyone is an individual, and their neurodiversity as a group of friends is what makes them so strong.

Penny Williams [00:00:30]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am super thrilled to have Deborah Farmer Kris here with me to talk about the representation of neurodivergence in media and the new kids show in PBS that she's been a part of called Carl the Collector. And we're gonna dive into, I think, what it means to be represented, what it means for our kids to see it, what it means for the adults in their lives to watch with them and to gain their own knowledge and language and helpful perspectives.

Penny Williams [00:01:28]: But I wanna start, Deborah, with you just letting everybody know who you are and what you do.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:01:33]: So my name is Deborah Farmer Chris. I'm a parent educator. I spent 20 plus years in the classroom. I write books for kids and for parents, and I have a website called parenthood 365.com, where you can find all my stuff. But the project from the last 2 years that I'm so excited about has been Carl the Collector, which debuted on November 14th, because this is a really special show, and I feel it's kind of like the big hearted show our world really needs right now. So thank you, Penny, for letting me come and gush about it.

Penny Williams [00:02:03]: Yes. And I have seen some clips. I haven't been able to watch it, but I've seen some clips. And, I I mean, I wanna watch it. It's so warm and real and friendly and a million other things, I'm sure. But that's what came across to me really quickly as I watched, some clips of it. Do you wanna talk a little bit about, like, how this came to be? Because I know there's a huge process behind representing autism and neurodivergence in media. People don't just say, oh, we're just gonna say this person this character is autistic, and there we go.

Penny Williams [00:02:42]: So do you wanna give us a little insight as to what that process is like?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:02:47]: Sure. First of all, let me just say that Carl the collector, at its core, is about 6 woodland creatures who lived in fuzzy town. And Carl is a raccoon who collects things. And Carl is autistic, and he is Sheldon the beaver, who is his real wingman, BFF, super empathetic. Empathetic. There is Lotta, who is an incredible musician and represents girls on the spectrum. And so there's this great episode called A Whole Lotta Lotta where she's very upset because someone in after school program's calling her headphone girl because she wears her headphones a lot. And you've got a couple of twins, Nico and Arugula bunnies, but who are identical but have very different temperaments.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:03:23]: And you got Forrest. He is a squirrel with a net allergy. And, he absolutely has ADHD, and it is his superpower. And sometimes it, makes his life a little bit difficult, and he has to figure out, you know, with the help of these friends. And it's just it's a beautiful show. It's designed for 4 to 8. But, I tell you, my 11 13 year old have been binge watching. It's super cute.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:03:45]: Mhmm. But it didn't just happen, as you're saying.

Penny Williams [00:03:47]: Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:03:47]: I was first contacted by Zach O'Hara, who is an amazing children's book writer. And if you know him, you'll know his style, and his style is in Fuzzytown. He calls it kind of a janky style of of art. And I had been working with PBS Kids for about 5 years at that point. And I had just recently helped them develop their social and emotional kind of framework for all the show producers. This is kinda show by blood. Worked on it for, like, 2 years with a bunch of advisers. And so when he was working with PBS to design this show, and there was no guarantee it would make it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:04:24]: Right? Because that's just a big design process. Not all shows make the final cut. He needed a social emotional learning adviser. And so they had suggested me. We had a great talk, and I immediately fell in love with the project. This is the first show on PBS Kids that has an autistic lead. Mhmm. Now there have been characters like Julia in Sesame Street.

Penny Williams [00:04:43]: Yeah.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:04:43]: But it's different when it's it's just there. It's just that this is the lead. And it's not like, here's a character we introduce to kind of represent. It simply is a group of friends, and everyone is an individual, and their neurodiversity as a group of friends is what makes them so strong. Yeah. And so I helped him initially and didn't hear for a while. And then was that about 2 years ago, got back in touch, and they've been given the green light by PBS Kids. And so I signed on as an adviser, and there are 2 other advisers who are specifically autism advisers, like Steven Chore.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:05:22]: And so what's so important about that is, you know, Steven is not only, you know, an expert, but he is also autistic himself. And Yeah. That has been true of every stage of production. Many of our writers are autistic, and many of our young writers. And so, like, there's a couple young writers who I just love, and it's so exciting because they're bringing their own childhood experiences to bear. Yeah. I'm thinking about, like, 2 little details. You know, in one of them, it's what about toothpaste? And, you know, it's actually Sheldon, and he runs out of his favorite kind of toothpaste.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:05:57]: And he's like, the texture isn't right. The flavor isn't right. And so Carl knows all about sensitivities, and so he helps them create the checklist of, like, okay. We're gonna try it all these kinds. We gotta check the flavor. We gotta check the texture and the foaminess. Right? Because it has to be right. And there was another quick scene where I see every single iteration of every single script, which is so much fun.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:06:21]: So from premise to the final draft. Wow. And I saw Carl was doing, a jigsaw puzzle upside down. It's not an episode about puzzles. Right? And so I put a question mark saying, I'm just curious why. And they said, oh, you know, one of our, you know, the the writer had noted that they like to do puzzles upside down because it helps them focus not on the whole, but on the piece.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:06:46]: And so that was a a hack, and then, you know, that was, like, one of those tiny authentic things that, you know, if all of the writers were neurotypical, that wouldn't be in there. So from the writers to the advisors to producers to animators, I feel in so many ways, like, this team, which is so incredible. I love them so much, is doing what the show is trying to do, which is show how neurotypical neurodivergent kids can actually strengthen each other and learn from each other and create a more beautiful world by drawing on each other's strengths and learning from each other. And I feel like the production process has mimicked that, and the result is an absolutely, I think, beautiful show. I'm so proud that the show is out there in the world.

Penny Williams [00:07:34]: Yeah. It's so charming too. Like, it just draws you in, and, you know, there's so many magical pieces, I think. You're talking about a lot of the magic behind the scenes. I think that the illustration style even is pretty magical. It's different Yeah. Than what you normally see.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:07:53]: The color scheme, the music is kind of retro. It's really Yeah. Like, kinda soothing. And, again, there's that piece of, like, it's sensory sensitive. Right? We don't have transitions that are jarring. And so it's designed to be a place where people can learn, enjoy, laugh, and also see see themselves and their friends or their children or their parents represented

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:08:16]: In the show.

Penny Williams [00:08:18]: In a positive way too. You know, taking what Carl or his friends might be struggling with and finding the help with a friend or the reason why they are doing things a certain way or whatever it is. It just sort of normalizes for kids who are watching, whether they are neurodivergent or not. They, I'm sure, know another kid who is. Right? And that's part of, I think, what's beautiful is it appeals to every kid, and those who aren't neurodivergent are still gonna get something out of it and still change the experience of the neurodivergent kids by having the neurotypical ones watching.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:08:59]: And that's one thing I love about this show is that there's so many pieces that are integrated in that aren't drawn attention to, just normalized. Like, you know, Carl has a finger stim, and he does that both when he's nervous and you can see with his eyes, but also when he's excited. And Lada has a tail stim. And there's nobody telling them to, you know Stop. Hold still or keep your fingers still. There's it so it's there. It's never mentioned. That word has not come up, but it's it's literally part of the animation.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:09:29]: You can see if you Google behind the scenes Carl, you know, you can see the animation where it's like stim 1, stim 2, stim 3, right, that they have kind of preprogrammed. And so these pieces are just there. And Sheldon being this kind of wingman, he will you know, Carl might start getting overwhelmed by sensory input and will walk away. And and he's like at one point, he says, you know, he's in his car's room right now. I'll go check on him in a minute. Like, he just he knows, and there's there's this trampoline that Carl often uses, you know, when he needs to get his energy out. And, you know, my son has been a bouncer his whole life. Like, he just bounces all the time.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:10:06]: Right now, it's a yoga ball even at 11, and he's always bouncing. And he has a spot inside the couch cushions, which is if he, you know, is really anxious about something, he goes and gets kind of the pressure on his body. And you have his mom who, you know, sees it as a tell of just says, oh, you know, you're in your your your cozy, couch spot. Is everything okay? And so it's it's not trying to draw alarm to any of these really, you know, normal behaviors Right. And self soothing regulatory behaviors, but just acknowledge that, you know, everybody has something that they do. And, it seems like we only want to kinda stamp out the ones that don't fall within, you know, a very rigid norm. And this is a show that explodes that in the most beautiful way because it's just part of it.

Penny Williams [00:10:57]: Yeah. It's just part of life.

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Penny Williams [00:12:39]: The connection sounds amazing too. The connection between the characters. Mhmm. You know, clearly, there is a deep friendship Deep. Between these characters, and I think kids need to see that these days Mhmm. More than ever, maybe. And that, you know, you can be different and still have connection Mhmm. Because we are also different.

Penny Williams [00:13:02]: And it feels like it's just really nurturing the idea of connecting in whatever way happens. I don't know how to say that any differently, but, like, you know, we we think, oh, well, if they're like me, then we should be friends. But a lot of times, the opposites are what are the most connected because you fill in the blanks for each other, and you allow space for the things that are different from you.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:13:30]: And they wonder at each other. They, like they're amazed by Lada's music skills. Mhmm. You know, Carl's collections are not only super cool. They come in really handy. Right? Like, there's this great episode where Nico is very upset that people keep mixing her and arugula up. So she borrows his wig collection and then his mustache collection thinking if I just get arugula to wear a mustache all the time. And, you know, there's just these moments where, like, they need something, and Carl has it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:13:56]: Right? Like, he's it's almost like I got the the tool kit ready to go. And then you also see that a lot of the strategies that Carl has learned and, you know, a little nod to the adult Zoom. So Carl lives with his mother, Maud, and his father, Harold, lives in the city. So we've got Harold and Maude, which only a certain generation will pick up on. Right. And they're wonderful co parents. Right? And so, you know and he goes and spends the weekends with his dad. But there's always this sense that it is mostly the kids solving problems together, which makes it kind of your step up from Daniel Tiger, where, like, the adults come in with a strategy song.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:14:34]: But the parents are there providing kind of this underbearing watchfulness, when they need it. And but what you do see is a lot of the kids drawing on lessons they've learned from the adults in their life. And so, for example, there's this great one called lemonade stand, and Carl's so excited. He has this checklist. He's super into checklists, and he loves sharing all of his facts that he has a lemon. And all he needs is one Sheldon. And Sheldon, it turns out, is terrified of lemons because he was squirted by a lemon when he was little. And so he can't figure out what to do, and his mom's talking to him.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:15:07]: And she says, do you remember what it was like when you were afraid of, you know, this toad that was in the yard? And he thinks through, and he remembers kinda how he had this you know, what it took for him to overcome that fear. And so he goes and uses and kinda almost creates this intervention for, Sheldon, which is, you know, super likes he's like, you're not ready to touch it. I get it. I'm not gonna push you. But, eventually, you know, he ends up getting the goggles from his collection so that, you know, Sheldon can't get squirted in the eye. And he makes the accommodations and modifications that Sheldon needs to be successful. And so that's the other piece I like is it's not about the neurotypical kids being understanding and helping. It's they're all just legitly amazing friends.

Penny Williams [00:15:54]: Right.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:15:54]: Who are the back and forth. You know, there's a episode later where, you know, you see there's something that scares Niko, who doesn't like to show fear, and it's Lada who quietly steps in to help her with it, you know, deal with her anxiety because Lada has a whole lot of experience and has built up her toolbox, and, you know, with practice in a way that that, you know, Nikka with her bravado hasn't built up. And so you Right. You see that that give and take, and it's it's so lovely.

Penny Williams [00:16:24]: Yeah. It just sounds like it really is about being human Mhmm. More than about having different labels and diagnoses and all of these things. And I think that's what we need. I think that creates a foundation for acceptance and for not dwelling on it. Right? They love Carl for Carl, and it's okay how different he is or whatever. But I love this idea too that you're talking about where they're problem solving. It's not the adults coming in and solving their problems.

Penny Williams [00:16:58]: They're problem solving. They're using their strengths Mhmm. To back each other up and to figure it out. And we certainly need more of that right now. I think we've gotten so far away from letting kids do things on their own. And I'm super guilty of it too because I'm just a get it done kind of person. Like, let's do this and get on with it, or let's talk about this and move on. And it made me solve their problems for them, which was, you know, not the greatest way to parent.

Penny Williams [00:17:29]: Now I know. But, like, parents who might be in the room with their kids when they're watching, I think will get these little nuggets of wisdom and ways to parent or ways to let their kids be kids, maybe we should say.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:17:45]: Yeah. I really agree. I mean, it's one thing I really appreciate about Maud is that and this is something I've worked on a lot in the scripts is really focusing on reflective listening. Right? She's just she's there. She pays attention to him. When she sees that, you know, he does need to step in every once in a while for doing some belly breathing or recharging his batteries or he doesn't understand why somebody's mad, every once in a while, I'll go home and say, I think Nico's Anatomy, and I don't know why. And so she's like, okay. So tell me what happened.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:18:14]: And so it was helping process some of the social intricacies that he, you know, he might have missed, and he's like, oh. Yeah. Okay. I get that. She might think this. I and and they're like, now I've got a mom. I'm gonna go talk to her. I'm gonna go apologize.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:18:27]: So, you know, Maude never solves the problems. Maude helps him talk through when he needs to and is, again, just so understanding of kind of the self regulation things. But there's this great episode that will come out later in the season, which which is a flashback episode to when he was 4, and, and they go to museum. And he's having a meltdown, and she is too. Like, she's struggling, and you get the sense of, like, by the end of she's like, we've both learned a lot of strategies since then. Right? Like, she's having a hard time accepting help from another parent who's offering it because she's feeling a little embarrassed. And so you see almost this growth that she's gone through with Carl that, you know, that all parents go through. It doesn't matter, like, who your kid is.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:19:13]: Like, you know, I'm a much better parent now than I was when my kids were 3, but then they come up with new challenges. And then I'm like, I'm starting over again. Right? So, like Yeah. I'm growing with my kids. And you see some of that too, which I just find lovely. Like, it's very much centered on the kids, but there's so many good nuggets for adults. And I think even for teachers, like, there are moments where, you know, Carl will explain how he's thinking, or there's a great episode on making something more sensory friendly, a performance. And with the friends who say this isn't fair, like, Lotta and Carl couldn't watch this because they got overwhelmed.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:19:50]: That doesn't feel fair to us. How can we make a, you know, an assembly that is fair for everybody, and everybody can enjoy it? So there's an equity piece there too that's very organic. I'm just so happy to see this here. And some of the fee I've been, you know, kind of going online, seeing what people think of it, and I've been delighted to see the number of autistic adults who are saying, like, I love this, and I wish this were around when I was a kid.

Penny Williams [00:20:15]: Mhmm. Yeah. Representation is everything. Plus, like, just helping people understand what it's like to have autism, what it's like to have anxiety, you know, all of these different things. We don't understand them unless we experience them or we see them, And that's, I think, one of the real big reasons why it's so important that they're represented is just the understanding that comes out of that for people who just don't know. And then what can come from that understanding is pretty amazing. I was just imagining too as you were talking, like, having teachers play these episodes and have discussions about them, like, in school, in class. A 100%.

Penny Williams [00:20:58]: Use it for social emotional learning. Use it for social skills. You know? So many things. If you have an autistic student in your class, how different might their experience be Right. If you're using this to educate the kids on that?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:21:12]: I've actually already sent clips, different school counselors in my life, and they're getting very excited because, you know, one of the great things about PBS shows is every single episode has a curriculum behind it. And so that's why they call me curriculum adviser. So there's a big idea for the episode, and it you know, it may be that everyone's afraid of something. But when, you know, when you can stop and and look, it's you know, there's there's, like, one sentence that underpins it, and then there's a curriculum. And then the writers choose from those, and they create a story that shows it without being too didactic. Right?

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:21:45]: Without, like, hitting over the head too much. But it's there. So, you know, the one where they are, you know Carl's learning. It's not available on PBS Kids right now. He's learning about how to be a better listener because his friends are complaining, one of them, that he wasn't listening. And he's like, why are people saying that? And so, Sheldon's like, oh, I have this problem too, but, like, my mom helped me with, like, 2 strategies. And so he, like, they do this coaching. And, you know, one of the pieces of coaching is like, and so make eye contact with the person speaking.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:22:15]: And Carl says, that can actually doesn't always feel good to me. And Cheryl is like, great. Okay. No eye contact, but maybe just turn your body toward them. And it's just one of those quick moments where you know? And it's not just, you know, kids who are autistic who trouble with eye contact. You may be a kid who is introverted, who has some social anxiety, who for whatever reason, making eye contact makes them less able to listen because it creates a level of anxiety. So they might be a better listener if they are turned, but not necessarily making eye contact. And, you know, that's one of those little subtle things that I think if you have people in your life, well, that you know this to be true, but there's a lot of adults who still insist upon it.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:22:58]: Right? Like, you have to look me in the eye or you're not listening.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:23:01]: And that's just those are the small things that I think can help us, like, just build understanding.

Penny Williams [00:23:08]: Change the world. Carl can change the world, honestly. Like, you know, we're just you're showing so much of real life for so many people. And even if you're neurotypical, it is real life now to know kids who are on the spectrum, to know kids who have ADHD, to know kids who are anxious. Right? Like, those populations are growing.

Penny Williams [00:23:33]: And we need to form kind of community around them Yeah. And around them, but with them.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:23:40]: Exactly.

Penny Williams [00:23:41]: I guess would be a better way to say it. Yeah. And it's just all it's all giving me the biggest warm fuzzies I've had in a long time. Because, like, you know, my kids are young adults now. My son did not see anybody who represented him. He, you know, had been the kid that kids were making fun of throughout his school years and all of these things. And I think, wow, if he had seen somebody that he felt was like him, even if it was an illustrated character Mhmm. It would have made a difference for him.

Penny Williams [00:24:13]: But it also would have made a difference for the kids around him and how they maybe embraced him or included him or even were helpful sometimes. Right? And, you know, he did have 1 or 2 of those friends, but if the whole the majority of our kids' communities were more embracing, and just even getting it a little bit, it makes a monumental difference. So it can be so powerful.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:24:41]: I agree. And I think it one of my favorite episodes that's available right now for streaming, so if your listeners want, just kinda tune into 1. There's one called A Whole Lotta Lotta, and, this is the one where the friends, they can sense that something's wrong. And she you know, so, like, I I wish she's very poignant, she said. Sometimes I wish I lived on a different planet. And, you know, and she called it no noisia. Right? Because it's very it's not too much noise. And then it you know, she explains that somebody after school had been calling her headphone girl, and it's really bothering her.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:25:14]: And so, you know and and Carl says, oh, I understand what that's like. You know, when I was a a couple years ago in school, some people called me the autistic kid, and I I hated it because I'm much more than that. And so and it's just, like, it's so real. It's just there. Like, these are just kids talking to each other. I I feel like sometimes we kinda almost kinda wanna bubble wrap the conversation. Yeah. It's not.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:25:34]: It's just kids saying, I I don't like it. Like, someone you know, someone's teasing me. And so, you know, Lotta's like, so what did you do? And then you can see the troubleshooting that happens. And then the growth that happens as she ends up talking to this kid who, spoiler alert, ends up becoming a friend of hers.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:25:51]: You know? So it's it's a it's a beautiful episode. But I remember I watched it with the kids a couple days ago, and my husband said, who's a, you know, career educator, I have never seen an episode like that, adult or children's television. Like, it's just, it's it's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. I'm hoping everybody tunes in because I want a second season. So

Penny Williams [00:26:11]: Yes. For sure. I think that that's gonna hap I just feel like even only watching a couple minutes of it so far, how could you not? I mean, kids are gonna get so attached to these characters and and invested in what happens to them. As you were just talking, I wrote down the word growth like, a millisecond before you said it. Because what you were describing, like, you know, we wanna wrap our kids in bubble wrap. We want to protect them. It's our instinct. But if we do that too much, they can't grow.

Penny Williams [00:26:45]: They can't learn from things that happen to them. So as much as we wish that no kid ever got bullied, it does happen, and this is the way that you can grow from it. You know? And just, yeah, there's so many things going on there. There's so many layers.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:27:00]: And then Carl's able to use that experience to, like, help a friend.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:27:04]: Right? Like, it's like he's able to be, like, okay. I did this, and now I'm gonna use it to help you. Because, you know, I I it's it's this great moment of empathy. Like, bonding over psychedelics doesn't that's terrible that it's happening, but it is real, and they're able to, like and she so appreciates having a friend who was able to to empathize in that way.

Penny Williams [00:27:22]: Mhmm. I'm imagining an adult filled Carl the Collector watch party right now with cookies and popcorn. I don't know. Like, I just I mean, I feel some relief as a parent of a neurodivergent kid talking to you about this. Even though my kid is an adult, like, I do this work for all the other kids too, and I feel relief that Carl is out there in the world right now. I think it's really gonna make a difference, and I'm I'm so just grateful for all of you that have worked on it and and how magical it is, how magical I think it's gonna be. We wanna tell everybody where they can watch

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:03]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:28:04]: And then where they can find you as well.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:06]: So anywhere you watch PBS Kids, my local station is WGBH, and it comes on at 8:30 every morning. But it's streaming on Amazon, the PBS app. There'll be games that are gonna be released as well. And so, right now, I think there are 13 or 14 episodes that are available to watch. Really, there's so many different streaming platforms you can watch it on. And you can find me on all the social channels. Just look for parenthood 365.

Penny Williams [00:28:31]: Awesome. And I will link all of that up in the show notes for everyone as well. And those show notes are at parentingADHDandautism.com/292 for episode 292.

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:44]: Thank you, Penny.

Penny Williams [00:28:45]: Thank you so much for being here, Deborah, and giving us Thank

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:46]: you for letting me talk about this

Penny Williams [00:28:48]: on some of your passion. I know, like, I just wanna hang up and go watch

Deborah Farmer Kris [00:28:52]: Karl now. I will watch 1 this evening. Seriously, let you get the cup of tea and binge watch Karl. I promise you'll feel better.

Penny Williams [00:28:59]: Yes. Yes. TV is my wind down at the end of the day anyway, so I'm just gonna put Carl in my rotation. And every night, I'm gonna have a little dose. Maybe I can get my kiddo to watch it with me, and he's he's excited about that stuff too even as a young adult. He gets so happy when things like this happen, and he sees himself represented, in places. So it's just amazing. Thank you.

Penny Williams [00:29:22]: With that, I'll see everybody on the next episode. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.