Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:00:03]: Often, you know, we think that our kids could be doing better than they are or that they should be studying differently. And we really don't always see their side of it and that they are working hard and they're feeling maybe more stress than we think.

Penny Williams [00:00:22]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back, everyone, to Beautifully Complex. I am honored to have with me today Ann Dolin, and we're gonna talk about school stress and executive functioning strategies and whatever else comes up around these topics that can be really important for you to know and also really helpful for you as a parent or educator to empower your kids and students. Anne, will you start by letting everyone know who you are and what you do?

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:01:17]: Sure. Thanks, Penny. Well, I've been in education for a long time. I started out my career as a classroom teacher, And on the side, I tutored kids, and I realized over time that that was really my true calling in life. And so 26 years ago, I started, tutoring business. And today, we work with kids across the country virtually on their subjects, but also a lot of what we do is helping kids with executive functions. So being more organized, managing their time, study habits, that type of thing.

Penny Williams [00:01:50]: So needed. And we're talking here about complex kids, and so often, poor executive functioning or lagging executive functioning skills come with the territory. So I know that this is really gonna be relatable for a lot of folks. Can we start by talking about school stress today, what that looks like, maybe what signals our kids or our students are providing that are really signaling to us that we need to focus on their stress level, their pressure, and helping them through that, which I think then helps a lot of other things fall into place.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:02:29]: It sure does, Penny. You know, I was talking to a student a few months ago, a high school student, and he said, you know, think about what you think my stress level is, and then I wanted you to multiply it by 2. Because, really, it's double that. Like, I might look like I have a bunch of things under control, but, really, I am so stressed out about this. And it makes sense because often kids, you know, either they look like they're doing okay or maybe on the other hand, they look like they don't really care about school and they're not putting effort in. And we think that they're not trying, but usually if you, like, pull back the curtain, you can see that they are working hard, but that maybe they're just, you know, not working efficiently, or they have difficulty with these executive functions that I mentioned. And so often, you know, we think that our kids could be doing better than they are or that they should be studying differently. And we really don't always see their side of it and that they are actually working hard, and they're feeling maybe more stress than we think.

Penny Williams [00:03:38]: Mhmm. I remember a time when my kid came home from school, and he was probably 5th or 6th grade, somewhere around there, and I guess his teacher had emailed me or called me or something that day, and I was talking to him about it. And he said, nobody understands how hard I am trying. Nobody gets it. Nobody sees it. And that really stuck with me all these years that we have to really be open to someone experiencing things different than we do because his experience is very different than mine. We're we're very different. We're wired differently, and it was just such an eye opener to understand that.

Penny Williams [00:04:18]: It helped me to be able to take a step back more often and really ask more questions. Right? Yeah. And then be willing to listen. Sometimes when our kids are telling us they're super under pressure or these things are happening, we tend to downplay it, or we think that maybe the pressure is needed. I know in schools, a lot of time, pressure is a tool that is used to get kids motivated and keep them on track, which actually, for a lot of our kids, makes things less doable.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:04:49]: Yeah. It's true. You're right, Penny. And and other times when our kids, you know, push back, and and they'll say, I'm fine. Don't worry about me. I've got it. Like, it's kind of our natural reaction as a parent to, like, take a step back and, you know, let them do their own thing. But, really, it's staying connected that will get them through these tough times and maybe even leaning in a little bit and letting them know, like, I get it.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:05:14]: You're super capable. I know that you can do this, but just know that I am always here for you. And when things get in the way, if they ever do, I don't know if they will. I don't know if they won't, but just know that I'm here for you. And it's just like you're right. Little things like that that can let kids know it's gonna be okay, and I've got your back.

Penny Williams [00:05:34]: Yeah. Yeah. Where do you wanna start with some strategies? You know, we we have stressed out kids, potentially, and it can be around school. What are some times of the day or or tasks that you see the students that you work with really struggling with?

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:05:52]: You know, so much has changed in the last few years, but I'd say that often it's all the digital stuff in a kid's life that gets in the way. And so, first of all, our kids have a lot going on in their lives, and they have lots to do. So they often don't have a lot of time to manage because they're going here, they're going there, or they're on this team, they're on that team. And so when they sit down to do their homework, they really need to be fairly focused. And it's just so easy to go down the rabbit hole of just texting with your friends or watching these YouTube videos or the show that just dropped on Netflix. And before kids know it, they've wasted time doing things that maybe aren't in their best interest. And so when we work with kids in my practice, we'll often share with them this concept of, rocks, pebbles, and sand. And, Penny, if you don't mind kind of, like, picturing a jar, like, a like, a mason jar.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:06:52]: It's completely empty. And at first, if you wanted to fill this jar and you put sand in it first, and let's say that sand is equated to the things that kids want to do, like watch their Netflix show, text with their friends, hang out with their friends, whatever it might be. And you put that in first into the jar, and then you put in the next thing which is pebbles. And let's say pebbles are equated to the things that you need to do, like your math homework. And then lastly, you put in the things that are super, super important, like a big essay that you have that counts for a big part of your grade, and you put that in last. Those rocks in last. And if you now look at your jar, you've got sand, you've got pebbles, and you have rocks, but not everything fits in your jar. Mhmm.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:07:44]: And that's because you put the sand first. And that's what often happens to kids is they they kinda like prioritize their valuable time incorrectly, and they end up staying up late at night to get those rocks done or the pebbles done. But we often share with them, like, you can actually make life so much easier just by reversing the order. And if you start first with rocks, the things that you are really important to your grader that you really wanna get done, then you put in the pebbles, say your math homework. And don't forget, you have to leave time for all that stuff you wanna do, your downtime. Put that in last. Just by changing the order, everything will fit in the jar. And talking to kids that way and asking, is this a rock or a pebble? Do you think it's helpful to start with sand, or what do you think of just doing a rock for 15 minutes? Sometimes it's those discussions that help kids prioritize their time a little bit better than just starting with any old thing.

Penny Williams [00:08:51]: Yeah. And making it visual is so helpful, and I would encourage parents to actually get the jar, the rocks, pebbles, and the sand, and make it really concrete for them, because I think that so many of our kids are visual who are neurodivergent, and that can really help them to grasp that concept. What is bringing up for me too, though, in this discussion is the concept of motivation. And I think a lot of times as adults, we interpret them wanting to do their preferred tasks as not being motivated to do the nonpreferred tasks. How do we navigate that as parents when every we know everything is important, and we want them to value what's important, But we're interpreting it, and I'm using that language carefully as though they don't feel it's important.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:09:44]: Yeah. And I also, you know, keep in mind and talking to parents that in school, kids have to kinda be good at everything. Not only do you have to be good at, like, 6 subjects or 7 subjects, but you also have to be super organized. You have to plan your time well, and you have to study well. Like, in reality, when you're an adult, you don't have to be good at everything. You can be good, like, maybe one thing or two things, and it's gonna be all okay. And so it's important to keep in mind that, yeah, school is so important, but so is nurturing their natural strengths and talents. Maybe they love animals or they're really good at soccer or, you know, maybe they're great at graphic design and making sure that they have those opportunities too so that, there's certainly balance.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:10:32]: But what we often find in the work we do with kids is it might look like a motivation issue in school, maybe in math or another subject, but it's really that either the student has some skill gaps in that class or it's that they're having a hard time with executive functions, and they don't have a process for knowing what to do first or for studying effectively. And so I think first things first, as a parent, we wanna try to figure out, is it a problem with the subject, or is it more of an executive function issue that impacts kids across the grades? And if it's an executive function issue, you will see a a telltale sign is that the student will have a hard time with missing and late assignments.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:11:23]: But if it's a subject issue, the telltale sign is that usually their test grades are lower than maybe their homework grades or their participation or maybe their projects because they don't quite understand the concept. So as parents, you know, we don't know everything, but we do know when our child needs help. And so sometimes just reaching out to other people and, you know, sharing with kids, like, I'm my role is to get you some help. Even when they say, like, I've got it. Don't worry. It's under control. Oftentimes, they don't always. And so knowing letting them know that we're here and we can support them and find them the right person to help them is is key.

Penny Williams [00:12:04]: Yeah. You mentioned getting started. Do you have some strategies for how to get started? I remember with my own kid with homework every day. I think we both dreaded it, and it was really difficult to get started for him. That was definitely one of the executive functions that he struggled with, and, you know, we found our way at some point. But I'm wondering what strategies you have seen that have been pretty effective with maybe structuring that specific time.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:12:35]: I often share with kids, look. It's not your fault. You don't wanna get started. Your brain doesn't wanna get started. Because if you think about it, like, okay. Could I scroll through these pictures on Instagram? Are these videos on TikTok? Would my brain rather do that, or would my brain rather read 10 pages of this book for my English class? Your brain is gonna pick the thing that feels the best. Like, that's why you naturally gravitate towards TikTok as an example. And so, really, when you're super stuck and you can't make yourself get started on something, you can do it 1 of 2 ways.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:13:12]: One way is by time. So go grab a timer. A physical timer is better than, I think, than better than when on your phone for obvious reasons. But you can get just, like, a good old fashioned kitchen timer and set it for, like, 10 minutes. And you say to yourself, okay, brain. I'm just gonna work on this for 10 minutes. I'm gonna turn off all my distractions, x out of my open applications, put my phone somewhere else, and I'm just gonna do this for 10 minutes and do the best I can for 10 minutes. Because often, you know, your brain will is willing to do that, but not willing to do something that's maybe an hour.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:13:47]: So if you can trick your brain into thinking this is easy, it's not so bad, I'm just gonna do it for 10 minutes. Often, that's all kids need to get over the hump and get started. But I often share with them, like, it's not your fault. Like, this is your brain thinking this is hard, and you gotta trick it. And they're like, oh, okay. That makes sense. I can do that. Mhmm.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:14:06]: And so often, that's one way to get started, using a timer. For kids that are super anxious and they don't like timers, you can do the same thing by task. Because you could say to yourself, oh, I'm just gonna do the top half. I'm gonna fold this worksheet. I'm gonna do the top half, or I'm only gonna do the first three math problems, and then I'm gonna take a break. So that's another way to get yourself to get started.

Penny Williams [00:14:28]: Mhmm. To make it more manageable, right, in your mind. My kid always got overwhelmed by worksheets and you know? And it and that time blindness that he struggled with also made it feel like, if I look at this page, this is the rest of my day. You know? This is gonna take forever. And it didn't, but I did learn to, like, fold that paper, give him one problem at a time. You know? Whatever felt more doable and felt like he could complete it fairly quickly. So I love that. Yeah.

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Penny Williams [00:17:00]: How do we then work on things like getting help when they really don't understand the material? So you said there was, you know, executive function problems, or school stress might be because they are struggling with the subject or the material or maybe just even the classroom environment probably. What can parents do on that side of the equation to help their kids?

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:17:29]: Usually, we see subject issues and cumulative subjects where one skill builds upon the next skill. So math is the most, by far, the most requested subject for tutoring in my practice, but it's also the subject when you ask kids across the country, what is the subject that feels hardest for you? Far and away, it's math. And it makes sense because math is very, very cumulative. Other things that are cumulative are math based sciences as you get older, like chemistry and physics, and definitely a foreign language. And sometimes as parents, we think, like, oh, just pay attention more or try harder or do your best. And somehow those things are gonna make it better for our kid, and they don't work at all because it's kinda like if you're in quicksand, even if you're, like, really, really trying to get out, you can't get out until somebody extends a branch and, like, pulls you out. Mhmm. And so it's the same with a cumulative subject.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:18:27]: It's incredibly hard to go back and reteach yourself the skills down here when you're working on skills up here in class. So you almost, like, need somebody to come in and reteach that to you, but also, you know, know that you still gotta practice what you're you have in class right now to keep up. So it could be, like, maybe you have a younger child. It could be you if you feel equipped to do that. Although sometimes kids will say, mom, that's not how we do it in class.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:18:57]: That's not how missus Anderson says to do it.

Penny Williams [00:18:58]: That's not how we do it anymore.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:19:00]: Yeah. We don't do it like that anymore. It could be a college student down the street. It could be a professional tutor. It could be the teacher. But knowing that, like, you're seeing this, like, negative compounding effect over time, that's when you really wanna reach in and get help. But sometimes it's also a non preferred subject as you mentioned, Penny. Like, maybe you're a math and science kid, but you really do not like to write, which is really common with kids.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:19:27]: Mhmm. Or maybe you don't like the teacher and you your kid says something like, my teacher doesn't like me, or I don't understand the way the teacher's teaching me, and they're falling behind. That's another sign that, okay. I need to get some help for my kid.

Penny Williams [00:19:42]: Yeah. And there's so much help out there. I love that you brought up different methods of doing that and, you know, even maybe using a college student. I've had a lot of parents who've had success with finding, like, just an older kid to be sort of a mentor and just to have it come from them rather than coming from the parent because they're so often more receptive that way. Yes. And thinking about some other executive function challenges, I'm wondering what your strategies would be for things like organization, losing things, messy areas where they're trying to maybe get messy on their desk or messy in their room. I know that there are a lot of different executive functioning skills within that that affect those things, But where would you kind of start with a kid who is really struggling to keep track of their stuff and maybe their paper for school, that sort of thing? I I see this a lot in our population of neurodivergent kids.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:20:46]: Yes. 100%. No. Organization is really hard. I mean, it was hard, like, 10 years ago or 15 years ago when kids had a lot of papers, and now they have papers and they have all these digital files. So it's like this whole another layer of organization. And so for young kids, one thing that can be really helpful if you have a student who there's papers cramped in every which way into their binder, and you find crumpled things at the bottom of their backpack. These kids are not kids that use binders well, like hole punching and putting in the holes.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:21:16]: They just don't. And so there are binders out there that have accordion of folders in the back, and what I found great success doing is helping kids when they get a paper. Each tab is labeled in the accordion with subject. When you get a paper, put it in the accordion section in the back. And just by doing that, things are gonna be in the right place and they're gonna be chronologically organized. Later, if the teacher says, no. No. No.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:21:40]: You have to have it like this. You can do that, but in the moment when you get something, file it away like that for now. Other things I found helpful for kids is to have a system for maintaining it. Because often, you know, at the beginning of the year, everybody's organized. You're taking your kid to Staples or to Target, and they have these, like, lovely color coded folders. And then you look a month later, and it's just, like, a total mess. And it's kind of, like, starting all over again. Like, oh my gosh.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:22:12]: Look at this. What a mess. Clean this out, and you're already in a power struggle over it. But you can maintain organization by setting up a time. I call this a clean sweep. Once a week for, like, 20 minutes and piggyback it off something you already do. So maybe you generally have dinner with your kids on Sunday night. After dinner, say, okay, everybody.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:22:33]: Let's get ready for our clean sweep. I'm gonna turn up the music and make it super fun and say, okay. Everybody's gonna organize something, including you. So for you, maybe it's your junk drawer. For them, it could be their backpack. It could be their digital files. But the idea is that if you can do this once a week and get into this routine of keeping it maintained, it just feels a lot more doable to stay somewhat organized for kids even when it's not their strength.

Penny Williams [00:23:02]: Yeah. Routines are so powerful when you're struggling with executive function. Right? Because it takes those processes out of it. Totally.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:23:11]: Because, you know, as a parent, we see things going, off the rails for our kids. It's just like, oh my gosh. I can't believe this. But if you're able to have some kind of routine, like, okay. This is the routine when you get home from school, and there's a visual. For little kids, this works great. Okay. When you come home, you have a snack, and then you start your homework, and then at 6 o'clock, you can play video games.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:23:37]: If it's in writing, that's best. For older kids, it could be like, you know, you've noticed that you never really had a routine, and and now they're 16, and they're not starting their homework until 10 o'clock. You can have a frank conversation. You know what? I've realized that we never had this in our house, and I think it's something that we need to do. So for now on, when you get home, it's gonna be our family rule that there's downtime, but there's the expectation that homework starts right before dinner. It's okay to do that even if you've kinda let it go for a long time. It's okay as the parent to say, hey. We need to start doing this, and it's so that you're not having to start stay up so late at night.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:24:22]: My role as a parent is to make sure you get to bed on time. That's okay too.

Penny Williams [00:24:26]: Mhmm. It's never too late to start. So I get emails from parents all the time of teens or young adults, and they're like, it's just too late for us. Right? I'm like, no. It's never too late to change. It's never too late to start to see things from your kid's perspective or wanna do things differently that are gonna help. I wanna talk before we wrap up about independence. I wanna make sure that we talk about this in this context because we often and and I certainly fell in this trap as having a kid with very poor executive functioning skills.

Penny Williams [00:24:57]: I would find myself doing a lot for him instead of with him or teaching him those skills. And I had to, at some point, step back and say, okay. How am I gonna help him with this stuff, but also teach him independence? How are we gonna map out these strategies and processes and tools where I can be removed from the middle of it and he can still succeed. What do you want peers to know about that? Where do they need to focus in order to make sure that we're not enabling or prolonging that lack of skill and that lack of independent functioning.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:25:35]: Well, Penny, it's so easy to do. I get it because, you know, you you want your child to get their work done and turn it in and get good grades. And when they're not doing those things, like, turning their work in on time and they don't know when they have something due, it's just a natural inclination as a parent to jump in and say, oh my gosh. Let me help you with this. This is super important. And then before you know it, like, you are the kid's executive function skills. Like, you hijack their frontal lobe, and this is what we do as parents. And I think the first step is just to have a frank conversation with the child and say, I've noticed I've been doing this a lot for you.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:26:13]: And I get the sense that you kinda wanna be independent. You probably don't want me doing this for you. What do you think? Usually, the kid's like, yeah. You're right. You know? But then it's not good enough to say, like, okay. Now you do this on your own, but then there has to be a conversation around, okay, but I'm still worried about this. How will I know that you've got everything under control? Let's talk about this and come up with a plan. And so, initially, it might be that, okay.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:26:41]: When you get home, I would feel better if you you just showed me what you have on top for the evening, and so I know you have a plan to go about this. It doesn't mean that as parents we're gonna critique it or tell them it's not right or anything like that, but we just wanna know as parents that the child has a plan. Right? And and sometimes that's the first step is just letting them know, okay. I may have gone overboard, and I want you to have this responsibility. I just need to know you've got this covered.

Penny Williams [00:27:11]: I love that. Yeah. And and getting them thinking about what they're doing rather than just going through the motions. When we sit down and we cue them to think about it, or we sit down and help them make a plan, it's not, well, I'm just gonna go willy nilly, do whatever, and I hope I get it all done. Right? Because I think then, too, the things that are preferred, the things that are fun are gonna come in first. Right? That sand is gonna be first.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:27:38]: Yeah. And we can even say, like, hey. What's your rock today? Or, like, if you could only get one thing done today, what would it be? And so, like, that often that type of question fires up their executive function skills because in their brain, they might be like, I've got these all these things to do. I don't know what they are, but there's a lot. But if you say, what's the one thing? That really helps them to, like, mentally start to prioritize or look at their their laptop and see what they have. And so often our kids need us to to ask those. We call them powerful questions, which can get them thinking.

Penny Williams [00:28:13]: I love that. Powerful questions. Yeah. Anything else that you wanna make sure everyone knows about executive functioning and school stress before we wrap?

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:28:25]: I think the main thing is just to let kids know I'm on your team. We're in this together. We're gonna figure this out together, and I am here for you. We don't always have to solve their problems. We really don't. That doesn't have to be our role as a parent. But just to let them know I'm here for you. You're a good kid, and I believe in you.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:28:44]: And I think that messaging carries a lot of weight with kids.

Penny Williams [00:28:47]: Absolutely. Relationship first.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:28:50]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:28:50]: That is gonna go so far in even them allowing us to help or to guide. Right? Yes. Will you tell everybody where they can find you online and learn more from you, work with you?

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:29:06]: Sure. Our website is ectutoring.com. That's for educational connections, and that's really the best way to find us. You can read all about our programs, and you can book a call with one of our program managers if you wanna talk about your child at cianfora@matchtohelp.

Penny Williams [00:29:23]: Awesome. And I will link that up in the show notes for everybody. That's at parentingadhdandautism.com/290 for episode 290. And I thank you so much, Anne, for the work that you're doing and the kids that you're helping and the families because it's not just the kids and for you being here and sharing some of your time and your wisdom with us.

Ann Dolin, M.Ed. [00:29:47]: Thank you so much for having me, Penny.

Penny Williams [00:29:50]: I will see everybody next time. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandautsism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.