Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:00:03]: This is the part that I really struggle with as a parent at this age is straddling that notion of active parenting. I think of it as managing. Right? The manager role versus a consultant or a coaching role in which, you know, we maybe are providing some backstop for our teens, but we're not in charge of them.

Penny Williams [00:00:30]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:52]: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am super thrilled to have my friend, Gabrielle Nicolet, back with us already to have a brand new talk about this parenting journey, and the complexities I think we're gonna lean heavily into in this conversation about parenting teens. And I think especially teens who are getting close to adulthood, maybe have already reached 18, but are still with us in a multitude of ways. Even if they're not with us in our home, maybe, they are still with us, and we're gonna get more into that. But, Gabrielle, would you start by letting everybody know who you are and what you do?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:01:38]: Yes. My name is Gabrielle Nicollet. I am a toddler whisperer, oddly enough, who has teenagers at home. So my son is 21, my daughter's 18, and so I'm living the dream y'all. But I work with predominantly families of younger kids, certainly also with teens who are struggling in some kind of way. And, I do that through a mix of group coaching, 1 on 1 coaching, and newly developmental consults for children under the age of 5.

Penny Williams [00:02:08]: Nice. Yeah. It's amazing what we think we're gonna focus on and then as life takes us in other ways. Mhmm. We try to become experts in those areas too. Right? Like teens.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:02:19]: Well and it just kinda happens. Right? Because you gotta learn on the ground.

Penny Williams [00:02:22]: Yes. And thank you for saying that. Like, we do not let each other know as parents that we are all learning it together. None of us have it figured out before it happens. It's learning by doing and growing and reflecting and more growing.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:02:41]: It's so interesting because I was having this conversation with my neighbor, parts of which we're gonna have here in terms of, like, how hard I in particular, but also many parents find the teenage years. Mhmm. And she was hilarious. She was like, oh, I never had trouble when they got to be teenagers. I found it very easy to let them go. I know. I'm like, are you out of your mind? But I'm also a person who said when my kids were toddlers, like, that toddlerhood was great for me as a parent because I knew exactly what to do, or I I thought I knew exactly what to do. Right? And so people have different, we all have different skills, and like different stages of parenting feel more or less intuitive for people sometimes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:03:28]: And sometimes none of it feels intuitive. And so I just wanna name that also, you know, like not every stage is hard for everybody, and sometimes every stage is hard for somebody. Yeah. And so, you know, like it is what it is, and we can unpack some of it here. Because certainly there's there's like skill sets that we can apply.

Penny Williams [00:03:48]: Yes. Once we learn them. Right? Once somebody says, hey, you should focus on this or that or Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna highlight for a second something that you just sort of said and kept going, which was it is what it is. We don't have control over as much as we would like to have control over as parents or as human beings. And part of getting through the teen years or whatever age and stage is the most challenging for you is accepting that it is what it is. It's going to have some struggle.

Penny Williams [00:04:28]: It's going to have some difficulty. It's going to have some discomfort. What can we control? What can we do? And we will get through it Yeah. Which is a lot.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:04:39]: And I wanna add because I had an experience that I'll share in a second where it might feel terrible. Mhmm. It might feel like ass. Yes. Right? Like like, really, really bad. And that doesn't mean and this is something I had to keep reminding myself of a couple of weeks ago. That doesn't mean anything has gone wrong. That doesn't mean I'm doing anything wrong.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:07]: It just means that the situation sucks, and it's gonna get better at some point, just not now.

Penny Williams [00:05:16]: Yes. Like not in our time.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:19]: Yeah. And it's very hard when you don't feel like everything's gonna be alright to remember that. It's, you know, and people use the sky as blue all the time. You know, the sun is still behind the clouds even when you can't see it. Okay. That's a nice intellectual exercise, but I still don't feel good. So Mhmm. Just naming that.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:40]: Mhmm. Right? And, again, like, the answer is yes. I don't feel good. And that's a full sentence.

Penny Williams [00:05:47]: Mhmm. Mhmm. I was just talking about interject just a little bit here on one of the previous episodes, couple episodes back maybe, about the hurricane here and the experience here, and I started to get really upset by everybody saying Asheville strong or North Carolina strong because it felt so invalidating. I'm like, these people are taking showers in trucks after waiting for hours to do it once a week because they have no home anymore. Stop talking about how strong we are or how great it's gonna be at some point in the future again. Like, let's talk about how bad this sucks and validate it for people. And I had this conversation with my kid who completely disagreed with me, and that's fine. I love having conversations where we just that's where he shines.

Penny Williams [00:06:42]: He can really, you know, argue, like, nobody's business, and he feels very strongly about, you know, his perspective. Right? And at times, that's hard. But for this, I was like, you know, I I get what you're saying. Do you get what I'm saying? And he's like, oh, I guess. Yeah. But I think, you know, people need hope. And I'm like, you're right. They do.

Penny Williams [00:07:05]: But to me, it doesn't feel hopeful. But to him, it did. Right? And so, like, teen years can be okay for you and suck for me and vice versa. Right? Like, we don't have to have the same experience as somebody else, but we have to be tuned in to what that experience is for each individual, I think. And we have to be sure that we're validating those emotions, even our own for ourselves. This sucks, and I'm gonna validate it. And we have to be careful that we're not using language that some people, and maybe it's only me in that situation, feel invalidated by.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:07:43]: Yeah. That's interesting. It's hard not to struggle against the struggle. Mhmm. Right? It's hard not to be anxious about anxiety.

Penny Williams [00:07:56]: Absolutely.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:07:57]: And I think that's where I found myself couple weeks ago when so I'll set it up for you.

Penny Williams [00:08:04]: Yep. Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:08:05]: My 18 year old is doing a very long hike Pretty much on her own for her gap year, and needed to come home for some emergency death toll work. And so and then got an infection. So she, like, is desperate to get back on the trail, and she can't go. And so I'm in the position of, like, my brain was going cuckoo on, like, is she gonna get to be able to go back on the trail? Is this infection gonna get worse? Are these the right medications? Is there another tooth and tooth? Like the loop was like boom boom boom boom, right, the whole time. And that was okay when she wasn't feeling well. So like when she was feeling poorly, it actually was the appropriate ish response for me to be, like, overly taking care of her and protecting her. Right. And then there was a moment where she started to feel better.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:08:58]: And even, like, now I'm still hyper vigilant, and she's feeling very of course, because she's 18, so she's immortal. Right? Yeah. So she's ready to go, and she has gone back, and I'm still kind of looping. Now, so the the part that was interesting for me was, first of all, I was really struggling not to struggle against struggling. Like, trying to remind myself. Right?

Penny Williams [00:09:25]: Resist will persist.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:09:27]: What we resist persists. So I was, like, trying to just go back to basics, get good sleep, and we'll talk about strategies in a second I'm sure. And then not getting on my own case about it, and then also being very transparent with her about, like, so this is is hard for me, you know, blah blah blah. And she has a limited amount of tolerance for that, and that's all fine. Mhmm. But this is the part that I really struggle with as a parent at this age is straddling that notion of active parenting. I think of it as managing. Right? The manager role versus a consultant or a coaching role in which, you know, we maybe are providing some backstop for our teens, but we're not in charge of them.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:10:12]: And anybody who has a teenager knows that the minute you try to be in charge of them, they're sneaking out. They're lying to you. They're doing stuff they shouldn't even even though maybe they wouldn't do those things. But, you know, we've inserted ourselves so much that they feel compelled to do that because they're at a moment of individuation. Mhmm. Mhmm. They have to go their own way. It's like biological.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:10:37]: Right?

Penny Williams [00:10:37]: Yes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:10:38]: So, again, like, spinning in that soup was very unpleasant. And so when you called and we're like, hey. Let's do another podcast. I was like, can we talk about this? Because I need I need to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:10:52]: And one thing that I heard you saying is, like, trying to balance our own needs with our kids' needs. And this is something I bump up against all the time too. I have 2 young adults who are at home, and I want to say, like, when you do this, this is hard for me, or, you know, this is how this thing that is going on for you is impacting me. But as you said with your daughter, it is not well received. And they're they're in their own soup, and it's about that. Right? And so how do we get our own needs met and sort of honor what they're telling us they need as well when it doesn't feel good to us what they are telling us they need. Right? That feels invalidating to us.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:11:46]: Well, I'll tell you what I did, which was to call a coach friend of mine and ask basically beg her for a session because and here's why, really. Because in the moment, and and I I wanna just acknowledge for folks who are raising neurodivergent kids and whose kids are still at home and that's very intense and it it's intense over time. Mhmm. Right? What I'm talking about here is like a pretty acute kind of situation. But when you've got these stressors that come up over and over and over again, I get it. Like, you're in hyperfunction land pretty much all the time. I was in hyperfunction land, and I needed to come down from that. And I called my coach friend, and I was like, please listen to me cry for 30 minutes about how this was terrible for me.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:12:28]: And I I think that that's really important. Like, we have to siphon off the stress somewhere. Mhmm. And it it's not that it can't be on our kids, but ideally it wouldn't be because it's actually not their responsibility Yeah. To take care of our emotional needs. Mhmm. And I know that that's really kind of that might be something actually that's kind of controversial to say, but, you know

Penny Williams [00:12:57]: That's what I was just thinking. Yes. As you said it.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:13:00]: Because I think we have kids thinking that they should please us at some level even if that's not a conscious thing? Like, maybe that's an unconscious thing?

Penny Williams [00:13:07]: Mhmm. Well, for me, when I get stuck in the cycle with one of my own kids, it's like, but don't you care about me? Don't you care about my experience? Like, you are making something hard for me. And it's not like, you know, I'm doing your laundry, and that's hard for me. Like, I'm talking about stress and emotion. Like Yeah. You are spilling this over in a way that is really stressing me out, and now I'm having a hard time. Right? Yeah. But I can't say that because for some reason, that's, like, you know, blaming, which it's not like, that's not the intention, but that's how they hear it.

Penny Williams [00:13:47]: Right?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:13:47]: But it's also, Penny, not their job. Right. Right? That's our work. It's not their work. Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:13:57]: But we want them to care about other people. Right? Like, I that's where I hear parents getting stuck. Like, I want my kid to care about what they do and how it impacts others, but they can't even do that for me. Like, this is where our brains go. Right?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:14:11]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:14:11]: I'm not saying that we should think that, but I can tell you that I have thought of that. And then, like, I'm feeling blame and shame on myself, and it's just this whole vicious cycle that can keep looping and looping. So where do we sort of where do we land with our kids so that everybody's needs are met, but maybe we're not looking to each other to do that?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:14:32]: I think for for me, I know that it's partly that. It's like, where else am I going to feel validated, to feel like I'm heard, to feel like I can spew about something and talk about how things should have been and could have been and would have been had they, you know, my teenager not been such a jerk or whatever it is. It doesn't matter. Right? So I think there's that, like, siphoning off the stress external to the parent child relationship.

Penny Williams [00:14:59]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:15:00]: And once we can do that, then we've got a little bit more clarity about who's who's doing what to whom.

Penny Williams [00:15:08]: And in your situation with your daughter, like, you were feeling like the situation was intense. Like, there's reason to be upset. Right? She, on the other hand, is, like, from what I hear, wildly independent. Like, she's literally hiking, what, 100 of miles through the forest on her own at 18. Like, I wouldn't even do that now. And so her fierce independence and not wanting to freak out about what she thinks are small things

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:15:40]: Yep.

Penny Williams [00:15:41]: Is clashing with your feeling, but you're both valid.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:15:46]: Yeah. And actually, I might be more right. Let's be clear.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:15:51]: I have a fully cooked brain, and she thinks she's immortal.

Penny Williams [00:15:55]: Right.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:15:56]: Right. Again, but being right, like, who is it that says this? There's a there's a, like, one of these Internet psychologists who says you can be right and be alone, or you can acknowledge the other person's version of events and be in relationship.

Penny Williams [00:16:12]: Yes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:16:13]: Right? And so I would rather be in relationship with my daughter than be right about most things.

Penny Williams [00:16:25]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:16:26]: And that's really hard. Mhmm. I like to be right. I really like to be right.

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Penny Williams [00:17:51]: I just made a note about give and take. Mhmm. Because as you were talking about this, like, my brain is going, teenagers want us to just give, give, give, but a good relationship, air quotes, is supposed to always be give and take. But we're not supposed to take from our kids because we're the parent. Right? Like, we're just getting deeper and deeper into the this is a crazy situation for everybody here.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:18:24]: Yeah. And then I think where it comes so if if I go back to this, like, manager versus coach consultant role, which clearly, right, when kids are tweens, it starts when they're young Yeah. And then goes up. Right? I I think of the container, like, the life container for a child as needing to just get progressively larger. And that when they're chasing at the rules for example or like sneaking out at night or whatever it is, like it's a sign that the container is too small. Yes. And when you have a child who's got a neurological profile and a social emotional profile that is really disparate, in other words they're like they're developing really really well in one area and really slowly and we're kind of worried in another area, it's really hard to know where to land. Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:19:15]: So then you're navigating kind of multiple developmental stages in the same person. Yes. And that's, again, I'm not sure that I'm here offering any solutions. I think the main thing is validation. Validation. So much validation. Right? Much. You

Penny Williams [00:19:32]: just explained my teenage years to me. Like, just now, I had the biggest because my container was definitely too small and tight, and I was definitely out there doing all the things I shouldn't. Sneaking out, sneaking in, drinking, experimenting with all sorts of things. And it was because the rules were so strict, and everything else was supposed to be evil and so bad. And I didn't realize until just now, like, I was just trying to find myself. And I was also railing against, like, don't tell me what is bad. Like, other people are doing these things, so why do you think it's so bad? Like and it it's interesting because my sister and I joke about this all the time. Like, we landed as adults so far from what we were taught as kids as far as, like, beliefs and ideologies and that sort of thing.

Penny Williams [00:20:28]: And I'm always like, I don't understand how we even got to where we are. But now it's interesting that my parents are sort of coming more around to where we are. Anyway, that's a whole, like, create my brain is gonna get, like, stuck and broken if I keep thinking about that.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:20:45]: No. But listen, what we resist persists. Yes. Right? So if we force children who, teens who are in the process of individuating, who are growing up, Right? Who are distinguishing themselves from their parents. And the only thing we show them is what not to do, which is essentially what you're talking about. Right?

Penny Williams [00:21:08]: There's one way to be.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:21:09]: There's one way to be, and it's this way. And they're like, well, I couldn't possibly be that because I'm my own person. Let me sneak out. Let me do all the things that I'm not supposed to do versus and this is way harder. Okay? Like, oh my god. Versus creating a larger container in which kiddo gets to experiment, make mistakes, some of which are probably dangerous. But guess what? Sneaking out in the middle of the night and going drinking with your friends, also dangerous.

Penny Williams [00:21:40]: Very.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:21:41]: Particularly more dangerous if you don't know about it. Yes. So there's like this whole piece of like, are they not in danger because we don't know they're in danger?

Penny Williams [00:21:52]: Yeah. I mean, I was way more unsafe in those years than my kids. Because with my kids, I was like, I'm telling you everything I did so you can learn from me. Yeah. And you can have your first drink here at home. Here it is. And, you know, all the things. Like, I just came into parenting saying, I'm gonna be the most transparent parent there ever was because I feared having a kid that was like me, that was out there doing all the bad thing.

Penny Williams [00:22:23]: Like, I tell my kids all the time. We just had this conversation again this week. I should be dead. I took so many ridiculous, unsafe risks as a teen up until I was about 21, 22. And part of it was social anxiety, part of it was just being in a super strict household, you know, whatever, finding my way, all the things. Right? But them not knowing, they they did not know where I was. Most of my teen years, my parents had no idea where I was because I told them one place, but I wasn't there. We didn't have cell phones.

Penny Williams [00:23:05]: They had no way to find me.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:23:08]: Yeah. And now, this is what's interesting about that, and I'm glad you brought up cell phones. Right? It's like now we have the location services, like, activated on all the phones, and now it feels like we have control over location. We don't. First of all, we never had control. They were just smaller than us. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:23:30]: So we had the illusion of control, and we had physical prowess. Once your kid is of a certain size, control based stuff doesn't work anymore unless you've got a real rule follower, in which case you're creating a people pleaser, and you can go on Instagram and look up people pleasing and see what that will rot. Right? Well, that will that will wreak. Yes.

Penny Williams [00:23:52]: That is not good, And that could backfire.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:23:54]: It's not good. We don't want that.

Penny Williams [00:23:56]: We want kids who think for themselves and have critical thinking skills and problem solving skills.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:24:00]: But then part of that means we get to manage our own anxiety Mhmm. About their risky behavior because we also know from lots of good child development literature that teens have to, again, as they individuate, they have to engage in the risky behavior, and their systems need it. And so we can promote healthier risk taking Yes. Or we can try to shut down risk taking, in which case we're just gonna augment and drive it underground. Yes.

Penny Williams [00:24:34]: Yes. It's just gonna be worse.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:24:36]: It's gonna be worse. Mhmm. And so For sure. Then we're just left with, again, our own thoughts and emotions and behaviors that we get to deal with because we're the only person we have any control over. Mhmm. Yeah. Which is terrible news.

Penny Williams [00:24:55]: And and we don't always have control over ourselves. Let's be real. We all have the same nervous system that gets triggered. Right? And sometimes, like, you just need your kid to be in front of you for a while because you're gonna freak out and potentially die if you just don't see that they're safe right in front of you for a few minutes. Right? Like, that's real real life. We're Yeah. We're giving a lot of real life here, Gabrielle. A lot of real life is coming out today.

Penny Williams [00:25:21]: But that's what we need. Like, we need to stop going on social media and seeing this article that says if you just do these three things, you're gonna have the most well adjusted child in the world.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:25:30]: It's not true. Bullshit. It's not true. But I will say, working on yourself, working on your thoughts, working on your emotions, tolerating your own negative emotions, and working on your behaviors because those all those things are not the same. Right? Those are all, like, different. They all proceed from one another, but that stuff signals to kids how they're supposed to behave and how they're supposed to treat people. Yep. And how they're supposed to think about themselves.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:02]: And like that's where the rubber meets the road. It's like how are we engaging in repair? I'll give you an example from from a couple weeks ago. My daughter was pissed. I was being overly over much.

Penny Williams [00:26:20]: Being a mom.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:22]: I was being very extra.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:24]: And I said to her, I said, I am so sorry. I know that I am really being a lot right now, and I know it's very unpleasant for you, and I'm really sorry. It didn't change my, did I attempt to modify, like like, rein it in a little bit? Yes. Okay. But, you know, like, all I could do is be, like, I get it. I don't have to be defensive about it. It's true. Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:46]: Right? And then I can just show up for her and be like, I get it. This is and then she gets to give me grace back because I'm acknowledging that I'm being annoying.

Penny Williams [00:26:56]: Right.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:58]: I don't have to be again, you can be right and alone, or you can be, you know, in relationship.

Penny Williams [00:27:04]: Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. And 2, like, I don't know. It it's all about our stuff. It's all about our stuff, and whose stuff is whose. Right? Like, her concerns in that situation were opposed to your concerns in that situation. That's right.

Penny Williams [00:27:25]: Right? But they're both valid, as I said earlier, and they both need to be addressed.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:27:33]: It's interesting because I think the temptation is and I think it it is also mine. Like, in this interest of being right, is to, like, be like, well, my concerns are more valid than yours.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:27:43]: I I think that's really important what you just said, but it's they're not. They're just different. They're equal.

Penny Williams [00:27:51]: It may feel more important to us, but it feels less important to them. Like, whose feelings are right? That's what we're really talking about. Whose feelings are right? Whose feelings matter more? And the answer is there's no answer to that. Everybody's feelings matter the same Yeah. But not to each other. Like, you know, your feelings as a parent have just as much validation and weight as her feelings in that situation as the we won't call her a kid because I'm sure she's railing against that. You're a young adult. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:28:24]: And you have to go elsewhere to have that met. Like, you know, she has to go and spill to her friends about how overprotective and crazy you are, and you had to go find your coach friend and get validated that, yes, this is really really hard, and all you want in the world is to protect her, and she won't even accept that.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:28:43]: Right? Exactly. That's exactly it. That's exactly it. Because we're never gonna agree on that because we're we have competing ideologies there.

Penny Williams [00:28:50]: Mhmm. And competing needs. Like, your need is for her to let you help her, and her need is to not need your help.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:29:01]: Yeah. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:29:02]: Those two things can't be met at the same time. Right? That's why it's so hard, I think.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:29:07]: And I think this is where and, we recently ran a, parenting teens parenting orchid teens group. And it was so juicy and thoughtful what came up in those discussions was was essentially about this. It's like, but my kid needs my help to apply to college. Mhmm. My kid needs my help to stay on a deadline, and then the question becomes like, okay. Well, you know, are they ready to go to college?

Penny Williams [00:29:40]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:29:40]: Maybe, maybe not. What's the level of support that they need? Are you the only person who can give that to them? Or can we set up a system? Like, there's once we, are in that situation, like, there's there's so many things to unpack and look at. Mhmm. I think particularly when we've got neurodivergent kids, because it's it it feels harder. Mhmm. And it's more sustained and, like, you know, kind of a grind.

Penny Williams [00:30:10]: My question in that situation is always, like, how do you make it about them? Even if it's about us, how do we make it about them? Right? Like, how do we get them to realize and ask for help? But it has to be up to them. The more we push, the worse they feel, and the more they build that big, lovely, shiny wall between us.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:30:33]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:30:34]: And that was something I had to learn really the hard way. My kid was like, you just need to leave me be. And I'm like, no. No. No. We have to fix this right now. Right now. Right now.

Penny Williams [00:30:43]: Come back here. Oh, no. We're talking now. You know? And I had to get to a point where I could hear him and validate what he needed even though it wasn't what I needed In this roundabout way, it was gonna come back to what I needed. Right? So if he needed my help with something, but I let him walk away and not take it, would he come back for it on his own? And if he does, guess what? It's actually helpful. But if I just spew it on him and he doesn't want it, all I'm doing is eroding the relationship. I'm not helping at all. I'm making things worse.

Penny Williams [00:31:16]: Right? And that maybe is sort of the secret sauce if there is one here with teens. It's like recognizing that if we stop pushing, we're actually gonna be helping more. If we stop helping almost, we might actually be helping more.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:31:33]: Yeah. I think you're a 100% correct, and I think that faith in, like, it will come back around at some point Mhmm. On a calendar that we don't have Their timeline. On their timeline. I think that's really hard, and also probably totally worth well, definitely totally worth doing. Mhmm. Mhmm. And then, like, necessitates all the more, like, go talk to your friends.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:32:02]: Go talk to your therapist. Go talk to your coach. Go talk to somebody who is not your child about blah blah blah blah blah blah, and they're never coming back, and they don't listen to me and all of that stuff. Because when you go back to your kiddo, and you're like, I'm here when you need me, can I? We're good.

Penny Williams [00:32:17]: Yeah. We can't look to them to meet our needs as parents even when it involves them.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:32:23]: As much as we would like. You know?

Penny Williams [00:32:26]: Can't that just be a symbiotic, like right?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:32:29]: Not how it works.

Penny Williams [00:32:29]: Just this relationship where everybody feels great all the time.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:32:33]: I know.

Penny Williams [00:32:34]: Because it's not real life.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:32:35]: It's not how we work, sadly.

Penny Williams [00:32:37]: Yeah. Because we're human beings. Right? Like, I think I talk about this in every single podcast episode, but hello. We are humans. Like, we have to start giving ourselves grace to be human. It's ridiculous, the amount of pressure and stress that we put on ourselves for things that just, you know, either don't matter or don't matter as much as we think, or we're we're gonna get there in some other way. And it may not be the easy way.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:33:03]: Yeah. And it's so hard sometimes to, number 1, to be a human. Number 2, to accept that that life is gonna be messy. And then also, right, like, we're here on the ground, like, in our daily interactions, and like, whatever. Did you did you leave your socks in the dryer or not? Meanwhile, like, and this is so it sounds so trite at some level, and and it's so not. Like, here we are on this planet in the middle of space, like, orbiting a sun. Oh, my god. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:33:31]: Every time my brain goes there, I go, and I can't anymore. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Like, what is the meaning of all of this?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:33:40]: What is the meaning of all of this, of any of it? And then Yeah. Then you can have your own little existential crisis, but, like, it can for some people. Maybe not for you, Penny. But it can sometimes just stop the little, like, you know, okay. The socks are wet Yeah. And not in the dryer. Little perspective. Oh, well.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:34:00]: Little perspective sometimes. Maybe. And sometimes not. Like, sometimes people will hear that and be like, what? No.

Penny Williams [00:34:06]: But, also, even if somebody else's problem is bigger than yours in your head, yours is still a big problem, and it's still valid how you feel because we do that too. Like, I remember when my kid was diagnosed, and I was just so emotional, so distraught. It's the end of the world. You know? It it his life is gonna be not what I wanted it to be. Right? And then I would say to myself, get a grip. There are people out here there whose kids are dying of cancer right now. Get over it. And then I didn't allow myself to feel what I needed to feel by doing that.

Penny Williams [00:34:45]: Right? And I think that's part of it too. It's like, however you're feeling is valid, period. I don't care what it is. I don't care if how you're feeling seems like it's the opposite of what you should be feeling in that situation, whatever. It's happening. It's valid. It is.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:35:04]: And by the way, unless you're, like, making yourself feel it over and over and over again, that feeling, it's gonna last about 90 seconds. Mhmm. Literally. Mhmm. 90 seconds.

Penny Williams [00:35:18]: But if you push it down, it could be 90 years.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:35:20]: Could be 90 years. Correct. Which is why I called my friend the coach, and I was like, I need to let this out. Yes. Because I didn't want it to be 90 years.

Penny Williams [00:35:29]: And sometimes that's what our teens are doing. Right? It just struck me. Like, our teens are sometimes letting it out on us. And if that's what they need, it's sort of okay. Like, maybe they could do it in a better way. Right? They could maybe do it in a way that felt more respectful, whatever. But it's still a signal that that's what they need. They need to tell somebody about this and how they're feeling.

Penny Williams [00:35:53]: Yeah. Yeah. So much acceptance. 30 minutes packed with tons of acceptance, I hope. I hope people are I mean, this conversation has been, like, really insightful. Like, really insightful. Like, just saying the things that nobody says and nobody wants to talk about. I think we've said, like, a dozen of those.

Penny Williams [00:36:13]: And Yeah. That just gives permission for everybody listening. Yes. It's hard. Yes. Your feelings are valid. Yes. Your kids' feelings are valid.

Penny Williams [00:36:23]: They probably don't go together, but you're gonna figure it out, and it's gonna be great. And you're not screwing it up even though you feel like you are. I could probably go on and on with that for a while.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:36:35]: I love no. I so love it.

Penny Williams [00:36:37]: All the feelings.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:36:39]: All the feelings, and then, like, Penny, as you were just talking, my whole system got really calm. And and I know you do this for your audience. Right? The reason people listen is so that they can listen to someone else remind them that they're okay. When we can start also doing that for ourselves, when we get good at talking to ourselves as if we are our own best friends, that's when we really and this I'm having an moment here too because I was not doing that a couple weeks ago.

Penny Williams [00:37:15]: Yes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:37:15]: I was not treating myself like my own best friend. I was, like, getting on my own case about blah blah blah blah blah. But when we can do that, that like, do you feel I don't know what you're feeling in your like, my whole nervous system just went.

Penny Williams [00:37:29]: The permission is just like it's either permission or validation. It always just makes my whole body go.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:37:35]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:37:35]: Okay. I can do this. I've got this. It's okay. And, like, this circles all the way back to my getting upset about people saying Asheville Strong.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:37:45]: Mhmm.

Penny Williams [00:37:46]: Like, I don't wanna just say it's okay and have people hear that we're saying that whatever's happening is okay. And however you're feeling is is not valid because it's actually okay, but you're feeling like it's not I'm not saying that. I'm saying that, like, it's validating the suck. It's validating how hard things are. That's what I think you and I are saying when we say it's okay. It's okay to feel however you feel. It's okay to have the hard times because that means you're human. And I promise you all the other parents, if they care at all about their kids, are also having the same hard times and maybe different hard times, but they're having just as much struggle.

Penny Williams [00:38:30]: It just might look different than yours. But, yeah, that learning acceptance and letting go of things changed me from, like, this body that was about to crumble with fibro and all of these like, I was in pain all the time. I was stressed all the time to, oh, I have some control over this, how I'm thinking and what I'm feeling and, like, feeling it instead of avoiding it. I'm controlling this. How I go through this actually gives me some control over it, and that acceptance was the biggest thing that I could do for myself to feel better. And when I felt better, guess who else felt better?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:39:16]: Everybody

Penny Williams [00:39:16]: Everyone in my orbit. Right? Yeah. So teens are hard, people.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:39:24]: Yep. Do your work.

Penny Williams [00:39:25]: Gabrielle and I give you total permission to think it's really hard and it really sucks

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:39:30]: Exactly.

Penny Williams [00:39:31]: And to find your person to help you with it.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:39:34]: This too shall pass.

Penny Williams [00:39:35]: And to know that someday, they will not still be a teen. Yep. Wow. So many things. I just hope people feel so much more validated and okay in some way, okay, about what they're going through. And, you know, I will tell you, the teen years for my kids were easier than earlier years. Like, I really feared the teen years because of the teen that I was, and so it was a relief to me what happened. So, like, every kid isn't gonna be out there doing all these things, risking their lives all the time.

Penny Williams [00:40:07]: Like, don't feel like if you have a child, they're gonna go down that path. Just, I think, understand and be aware. Like, be open to letting them go down the path they're gonna go down instead of telling them they can't, which is the point at which they do anyway. Right? There's your big lesson. Gabrielle, tell everybody where they can find you and how they can learn more from you and feel better about themselves from you and all of these things.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:40:33]: You can find me at my website, gabrielle nicolet.com. That's gabrielle with 1l and ane at the end. You can find me on the socials under my name, and, yeah.

Penny Williams [00:40:44]: And in the show notes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:40:46]: And in the show notes and on the complicated kids podcast. Yes. Yes. Yes. Forgot to mention.

Penny Williams [00:40:51]: We will link that up and everything else at parentingadhdandautism.com/289 for episode 289. Thank you for, like, just showing up and being real. I think so many times we get in interview mode and we wanna give strategies and all these things. And we, honestly, we really didn't get too many strategies. They're sprinkled in there, but this, I think, was so much more helpful for where a lot of people are. Yes. And later, we'll talk about, okay, what do you do? You know, sometimes you just have to get to kind of a grounded footing so that you can do those things. Thank you for being here again.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:41:32]: It's always a delight to talk to you, Penny. Thank you so much for having me.

Penny Williams [00:41:35]: Ditto. Ditto. I'll see everybody next time. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:41:39]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.