Caroline Thor [00:00:03]: Start to put an emphasis on we are all responsible for our space as a family. It's not just down to mom or mom and dad to make sure that everything's picked up and tidy, and make it something that you do together as a family daily. And I don't mean, like, for hours. I mean, literally 10 minutes.

Penny Williams [00:00:25]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started.

Penny Williams [00:00:47]: Welcome back, everybody. I'm really excited today to have Caroline Thor with me to talk about creating an environment, helping our kids create an environment that really works for them, that helps with some aspects or traits of their neurodivergence, including the ways that we talk to them about structuring their environment, which I think is so important because, as parents, we often just sort of default to dictating, to giving instructions, and then when it doesn't work out per our instructions, I think we get lost, and, you know, we just wanna keep adding pressure at that point. And the goal is to find what works for each kid and to be able to support them in that way, so I'm really excited that Caroline is gonna share some of those insights too just about having the conversations in a way that's effective and then effective strategies on top of that. Caroline, will you start by talking about who you are and what you do?

Caroline Thor [00:01:50]: Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me here today, Penny. My name is Caroline, as you said. And as you can probably hear, I'm British. And I am a professional organizer and KonMari consultant. I live in Germany and have been for the last 19 years. And I have 3 kids who are now 17, 15, and 12.

Caroline Thor [00:02:15]: One of whom has autism and ADHD, and another child has ADHD. So we're a very neurodiverse family too.

Penny Williams [00:02:25]: Awesome. Will you, I think, start by talking about what is the KonMari method and what is your approach to organization?

Caroline Thor [00:02:35]: Yeah. I am obsessed with the KonMari method. I love it. It changed my life. So the KonMari method has 3 main like things that run through it. The first one is that we are looking at how we want to live before we start decluttering and organizing. So we're like visualizing our ideal lifestyle and that includes your family. So especially when you have children who have specific needs, it's really important to first look at how does our home need to be in order to support all of us rather than it just being a glorified storage unit which is what very often happens with our homes these days.

Caroline Thor [00:03:14]: The second thing is that we only keep things that spark joy for us which means things we love, that are functional, that we need, that make life easier, which means we just have less stuff in our homes once we've decided what those items are. And then the third and final thing, which is the thing that I think helps our kiddos the most is that everything has a place to go back to. So we organize everything with a system so that things are grouped together in categories and everyone in the home knows that's where this category goes back to. Which means it's great for you as mom because everyone can support you with tidying up as well, which is what I love about it the most.

Penny Williams [00:03:54]: Mhmm. Mhmm. I have a brain that is automatically trained on everything has a home and a place. And I live with 3 people who don't, and so I'm constantly like, oh, these scissors aren't where they go. This isn't where it goes. Right? Because that's the way my brain works. And we've been able to create systems to support that better for everyone, but I love that the method that you're talking about starts with thinking about what we want our environment to be like rather than just adopting whatever we think the the definition of organization is.

Caroline Thor [00:04:33]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:04:33]: So instead of trying to fit, like, that norm into our lives, we're taking what we want our lives to be and finding the structure that works for that. And that just really aligns with what we need to be doing with neurodivergent kids as well. Right? It's really individualized.

Caroline Thor [00:04:54]: Yeah. Absolutely. And it really is a game changer because we as humans tend to collect things.

Caroline Thor [00:05:02]: And when we start to have too much stuff that isn't any longer supporting us, so perhaps things from a previous phase in our lives that we've moved on and we don't do that craft anymore or that hobby or we've grown out of those clothes, then it just becomes clutter. And so actually knowing that these things don't serve us anymore and the same for our kids, you know, are their toys appropriate? Are the things they have in their space appropriate? Are they supporting them? Do they feel comfortable with them? These are all questions that we need to ask before we can even start making those changes, and that's what really makes the difference.

Penny Williams [00:05:41]: Yeah. And I know my neurodivergent kid is a collector. He is about to turn 22, and he still hangs on to, like, things that brought him joy when he was 5. Right? Like Yeah. He doesn't like to get rid of anything that he has a good memory associated with. So how do we work on that? How do we work on finding ways to help our kids let go of some of that extra stuff because I think in the end, simplifying probably serves them more.

Caroline Thor [00:06:15]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:06:16]: Would you agree with that?

Caroline Thor [00:06:17]: Absolutely. Yeah. Less makes it easier to keep the space tidy. And especially if you have a kid who perhaps has an ADHD diagnosis, they are gonna find it really hard to keep their space tidy. So I have 2 of these children in my home and one child really, really struggles with keeping their space tidy. And we've actually found that by trying to impose what we feel is an acceptable level of tidy on them, we were stressing them out. We worked this out quite a few years ago by saying, come on, it needs to be tidied up each day, we need to push away. They were getting really stressed and uncomfortable with that.

Caroline Thor [00:07:01]: So we backed off and have said, okay, it's your space. How would you like it to be? What is a level that you feel is acceptable for you that means we can still get in and vacuum the floor and we can dust around when we need to once a week, but you feel comfortable in your environment because they need this stuff around them. It seems to it almost seems to form a cocoon for her. Mhmm. So that's really important, I think, to look at each child and talk to them if they're old enough to be able to have those conversations with you and work out what do they feel comfortable with. And as you said with your son, there are things that they collect. And having those things in their environment gives them a safety, a security. They don't need to let it all go.

Caroline Thor [00:07:51]: But perhaps if the collection has got to the point where it's taking over the whole space. So you might have a kid who has bought every LEGO set that's ever been built or developed and has built them all and wants them all displayed every like, every surface in the house is taken over with Lego. Yeah. Okay. Which is your favorite? If you if you could only choose 1, which one do you absolutely love? So whatever your child's collection is, you can start from that point. And we don't then need to make a decision that day about which ones we let go, but just to sow that seed of some of these are more special than others. What thing from that collection that you've had since you were 4 years old is your favorite one from them?

Caroline Thor [00:08:34]: And then another day, oh, which of these do you like the least? And why is that? Why don't you like that one as much as the one you told me last week you absolutely love the most? Try to get them to start thinking about why they really like some things and not so much other things. And then slowly, you can work to the point where you can say, okay, well, if we had this shelf available, wouldn't it be great if we could put all your favorite ones on display here, but there wouldn't be room for all of them. So which would be your favorite ones? And then you can help them a bit by saying, look, we understand this is really important to you. We're not gonna make you get rid of them. Let's pack them really carefully into a box for you. And we can store them in the cellar for now or in the garage or wherever. And just get them used to the idea that these things don't have to be in their space and they can still feel safe.

Caroline Thor [00:09:29]: Because the things haven't been got rid of. And then my son who's 12, he suddenly decided about 6 months ago that his manga collection that he had spent 100 of euros on Mhmm. He doesn't like mangas anymore. He's moved on to the next thing. So he sold them all. I helped him sell them online, and he made a lot of money. And then he was able to invest that money in his new passion that he has at the moment. Yeah.

Caroline Thor [00:09:59]: So helping them understand that there is a value sometimes to these things because they've been collecting them and that there are ways of letting them go that may Going around Christmas time to sell things is great. Going around Christmas time to sell things is great, like November onwards because lots of people are looking for great gifts for their kids.

Penny Williams [00:10:25]: Yeah.

Caroline Thor [00:10:25]: So that's a really great time. So that's how I would go about it with kids who have a real attachment to things. But we have to respect the fact that they love these things. And we wouldn't be very happy if someone came into our space and said, right, you need to get rid of 3 paintings today when the ones we've got hanging on our wall, we love them all. So we have got to be respectful of that and give them some autonomy over their belongings, but also help them start to understand why they perhaps love some things more than others. And that perhaps might help reduce the collection over time.

Penny Williams [00:11:02]: Yeah. So we're having conversations about those attachments.

Caroline Thor [00:11:06]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:11:06]: We're digging deeper. We're figuring out what that is and helping our kid explore what that is. Yeah. And that's a great first step to, I think, to building awareness in our kids. And I think all of us do this. We just collect stuff. Sometimes we feel like stuff makes us feel better. You know, today, we feel like we need this thing, and we don't really think any more deeply about it.

Penny Williams [00:11:31]: And, you know, then we end up with too much stuff, and it's not serving us or bringing us joy. I wanted to really highlight that you brought safety into this conversation and a sense of safety, and that sometimes things can make us feel safe because we know that when our nervous system feels safe, things are more doable. You know? Our kids are feeling good, so they're able to do good. And so I think that it's so super important that we are focusing on that sense of safety in this aspect too, in every aspect. You know, we think about it like kids who struggle to go to school. Oh, well, they don't feel safe in that environment. What is it about that environment? Or, you know, like for me, I have social anxiety, so my body and my brain and my emotions, you know, my thinking don't feel safe in social environments where I don't know anyone. Right? So there's so many ways that that comes up, but I don't think we think about it when we think about belongings as much as we need to.

Penny Williams [00:12:43]: Yeah. And then that brings up too this piece that's the emotional component of the things that our kids have and their ability to part with them or not part with them to keep that environment more simple Yeah. Which we definitely struggled with. My kid is like one of your kids that you described. Like, we struggle so much with keeping that room cleaned up, and what I have found over the years is that he doesn't really notice it. Like, I'm acutely aware when I open the door that it is chaotic. It is messy. There's trash.

Penny Williams [00:13:23]: Like, there's so many things. Right? And it just doesn't bother him. Like, it doesn't trigger him. Right? So how do we help kids who kind of don't care about what is around them in the same ways that we do? How do we help them to build these awarenesses and skills?

Caroline Thor [00:13:42]: Yeah. I think when you as a family start to put an emphasis on we are all responsible for our space as a family. It's not just down to mom or mom and dad to make sure that everything's picked up and tidy and make it something that you do together as a family daily. And I don't mean, like, for hours. I mean, literally 10 minutes. Okay. So after dinner, perhaps in the evening for 10 minutes say, okay, we're all going to look around the living spaces downstairs. Can anyone see something that belongs to them? Could you take it back up to your bedroom? We start to take responsibility for this space as a whole.

Caroline Thor [00:14:26]: So that that's sort of the communal areas. And then, of course, you move on to their own spaces, as you say, with your son's bedroom. And it is really hard because, as you say, they don't see it. They literally don't see it. And it's very often the case that they become so overwhelmed with what would I do with all this stuff anyway? How would I even start to tidy up that they don't know where to begin? So like you open the door and you're overwhelmed. If you asked him to tidy up, like can you tidy this room today? He would feel overwhelmed as well. So I really feel from having worked with a lot of clients now and a lot of them have an ADHD diagnosis that when you start to feel overwhelmed, it's actually easier just to say, well, it's better not to do anything. That's less scary.

Caroline Thor [00:15:19]: As humans, we don't like change. We would rather stick with what we know. And so this overwhelm is something you have to slowly support with. So you could, for example, say 1 week, right, let's have a go at seeing how many pieces of clothing we can pick up in here because there's often clothes lying around in these spaces. And sort of help them get them all into a wash basket, remove them to the from the space. Okay. Well, that that makes a difference. Look how different that looks.

Caroline Thor [00:15:51]: Now it's gonna be easier for you to find some other things if you haven't got clothes lying around everywhere. And then support them once the clothes are washed and folded to put them away somewhere. Like, can you help me? Where would you like these to go in your room? What is easiest for you for putting these away? Because what I did, the mistake I made with my, daughter was that I tried to impose what I thought was a really great system for her for putting all her school stuff away. So I'd got these really cool drawers and there was a different drawer for each subject and it was gonna be super organised and I labelled it all. It didn't work for her brain. It just she didn't use it. And I kept finding things like piled up on her desk. I was like, you've got a drawer.

Caroline Thor [00:16:35]: Why don't you put it in your drawer? And it just didn't work for her. And then one day, she suddenly organized it herself. She you know how they they have these days where they can do it. Yeah. Most of the days they can't. And then suddenly, one day is the day when they're in the flow. And for some reason, they feel like doing the thing, and they can just do it. And she created this amazing system for her school stuff.

Caroline Thor [00:16:59]: And since then, everything's got a place. It would be chaotic for me, but it works for her. And she can find everything and put stuff away. And it's important that they have ownership over that.

Caroline Thor [00:17:11]: This would be the thing that I think is most important when you're trying to help a child, whatever age they are, to create order in their room and be able to keep it tidy. You need to take on board their ideas. Like where do you think would be a good place to put these? What do you think would be the best way to store all your cuddly toys? Or where do you think would be a really good place to put all your Legos? And they might have ideas about that. So they may have the idea that they would like all their Lego bricks sorted into different colours to be put away. Most kids would not want to do that because it's like extra work. But for kids with neurodivergency, that might actually be quite fun to have to sort them out and put them away according to colors. Or if you've got a kid that doesn't wanna do that, then simplest thing is to get one bin and all the Legos go into one bin. You've got to make it as easy as possible.

Caroline Thor [00:18:07]: And for kids with ADHD, if it's got more than one step to it, it's not gonna happen because Yeah. They'll get distracted on the way to the second step. So always keep it really simple. Don't overwhelm them with trying to do the whole room at once. Pick at it, like, over weeks, literally over weeks. Because also, they don't notice the change in their room quite as much then if you're doing it gradually. Whereas if you go in and do the whole room and suddenly it's, like, different, that is really going to make perhaps them unregulated. Their nervous system will be activated.

Caroline Thor [00:18:44]: And that is not what you want because then they won't be able to find stuff. Yes. It looks messy, but they know where everything is in that mess. So you have to be really sensitive to moving things and making sure they see where it's going and have some ownership over that.

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Penny Williams [00:20:17]: I love the idea of gradual change so that they don't lose that sense of security. And 2, it really helps with overwhelm. I mean, I learned that a long time ago with my own kid. Give one task, one piece of it. Go get those clothes. Let's put them in the laundry room. Right? Like, the next day, it's another thing. And chipping away at that, I think, in that way, kids tend to be more receptive also.

Penny Williams [00:20:46]: Like, who wants to go in and spend hours cleaning up? And, you know, then we need those preventive strategies, which are the systems that we have asked our kids, what works for you? Which is so like, I just can't hammer home that question more. It's so important because we can give them all the organizational tools in the world. If it doesn't work for them Mhmm. It's pointless, and it's probably adding stress.

Caroline Thor [00:21:17]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:21:17]: Because they feel like they're disappointing us by not using what we, you know, took time to provide to them. So asking those questions, and what advice would you offer to parents whose kids maybe can't be super clear about what they think will work for them or they don't know? How do you help them to discover that?

Caroline Thor [00:21:36]: I think this is where using visual cues comes in really, really helpful. So if you've got, for example, a bin and you've got, an image or what I used to do was I used to photograph the contents of the bin and then stick the photo on the outside so that they knew know what goes in there and say to them, right, I've had this idea. I think it would be really cool if we put all the Legos in this bin at the end of the day or when you finish building something or whenever. But let's try it and you need to tell me if it works for you or not. So I will ask you again in a week's time, does this make you feel comfortable when we do this or does this make you feel a bit icky and you it stresses you when I say we have to tidy up the Legos? And they should be able to let you know whether this is something they feel comfortable with or not. And if it's clear they feel uncomfortable and you'll know if they feel uncomfortable because they won't want to participate in it.

Caroline Thor [00:22:37]: And I think this is the other thing, the mistake we make as parents is very often to say, okay. Can you go and tidy your Legos away? And just expect that they do it. Mm-mm. We need to be doing it with them. We need to teach them how to tidy up. It's not something that someone is necessarily born with this innate ability to tidy. I am naturally very, very disorganized, which sounds crazy seeing as my profession is now helping people stay organized. But like my parents, when I was a kid, used to say, right, go and tidy your room.

Caroline Thor [00:23:08]: And I used to stand there completely overwhelmed. I used to go and get some plastic bags that mom had brought home from the supermarket, stuff everything in the plastic bags, and hide them under my bed. And my parents were none the wiser that that's how I tidied my room, but I could never find anything again. I just got loads of plastic bags stuffed with stuff under my bed. It was crazy. So as an adult, this is what I've had to learn and this is why I say the KonMari method literally saved me. It wasn't until I learned this system that I had this moment of like, oh my goodness, it doesn't have to be difficult. How crazy is this? I can stay organized.

Caroline Thor [00:23:46]: It's not me. I'm not lazy. I'm not broken. I just didn't have the right way for me to do this.

Penny Williams [00:23:52]: Yeah.

Caroline Thor [00:23:53]: So I think that that is really important and to say to your kids, we can try this and we can change it. It's not written in stone. And if when you're doing tidying up with your children and showing them, look, we can take the bricks and put them in the bin. If they help you, I always used to putting a song on. We've got one song to tidy up so that there's a bit of fun to it. We'd stop and dance in between and then I'd go tidy up time and we'd get back to tidying. And it was all a bit of a game. It was great because I would see which child was engaged and which wasn't out of my 3.

Caroline Thor [00:24:29]: And if they weren't engaged, this clearly wasn't something that was sparking joy for them.

Penny Williams [00:24:34]: Right.

Caroline Thor [00:24:34]: And therefore, I need to find another way with that child to get them involved and actually having fun with this. And I just had the most amazing moment the other week. We went to a live concert, from this artist and it was his song that I always used to play for my tidy up music. And my girls now 17 and 15, started dancing to this song and suddenly turned around and looked at me with the biggest grinch and went, it's the tidy up music. And they'd remembered. And I was just like, the connection we have built, it's time spent with them and it can be fun and it doesn't have to be this arduous chore that ends up with everyone banging heads together and it turns into a fight. It can become something really beautiful that is a way of connecting with them.

Penny Williams [00:25:18]: Yeah. I appreciate that you're talking about doing it with them also because I don't think we were raised that way. I think, you know, culturally, we're told to ask our kids to clean up their room, and they should, I'm using air quotes, be able to do that. Right? And Yeah. You know, there's so much research that shows that when people struggle with getting things done, having sometimes in the ADHD community is called a body double really helps, but also it, I think, takes the pressure off of our kids. When we're there doing it with them, there's less pressure to be able to meet our expectations without, you know, that support to do it.

Caroline Thor [00:26:03]: It's also really empowering for them when they start to realize that you can back off a little bit. Yeah. It's like, oh, you're so good at this now. You don't need me helping you with this bit. I'll get on and do that while you do this. And that empowerment you're giving them that they are capable and able and you trust them, that is worth so much. And then it gives them the confidence to be able to start trying to tackle other things as well.

Penny Williams [00:26:32]: 100%. Yeah. And I don't know if you know Seth Perler. He's an executive function coach, and I've had him on the podcast and in summits and different things and think very highly of him. He's a wonderful human. He has great strategies. And one thing he taught me quite a while ago was, like, he said, you know, what happens if you just walked into your son's room and you picked up a dirty dish off his desk and you walked out with it. I'm like, well, I don't know.

Penny Williams [00:27:00]: Shouldn't he be cleaning it up? Right? Like, because my assumption was if I do for him, he won't learn to do for himself, which is true in general, But sometimes, if we take that action, it can spark more action. And what I found would happen was as soon as he was done with what he was doing or if he could do it at that moment, he would get up and grab a couple more things and take them out of his room. And I didn't have to say a word. I didn't have to nag. I didn't have to remind. Right? And so sometimes I'll be like, hey. I think maybe your trash can in your room, it looks a little full. I'm gonna go grab you a clean bag.

Penny Williams [00:27:44]: And so I bring that to him, and it helps to just get over that task initiation hurdle that I think sometimes we have, but it's been a really valuable thing for us that goes right with in line with what you're talking about with doing it with them. Yeah. Right? We can start.

Caroline Thor [00:28:02]: And I think also we know our kids. We know the days when they're dysregulated and they're not coping. It's really not worth in those moments trying to make them tidy up or either just do it. And and if they can, they'll join in and help you. And if they can't, fine. We have days when we don't feel like doing stuff either, but we get to choose not to do it on those occasions. They don't always feel like they have that choice. And it's really, I think, a beautiful thing if you can just do the thing and yet they'll probably join in and help you, but there isn't an expectation there.

Caroline Thor [00:28:36]: I always say that we need some sort of radical acceptance about their rooms. It is how it is. And, about their rings. It is how it is. And, we can't change. The only thing we can influence is us and our our actions. And as you say, by role modeling and and showing them what's possible, then we stand the most chance that they will end up doing the thing.

Penny Williams [00:28:57]: What other strategies do we need to know about helping our kids learn to manage their environments in ways that work for them?

Caroline Thor [00:29:05]: I think emphasizing for the older kids the benefit of them having a tidy space. Like, if you have a tidied up space where everything is you'll know where to find that cable when you want to play with your Xbox or whatever the whatever the thing is. And for little ones, if they have got a space where they can actually get stuff out and enjoy what they've got and play with it rather than being overwhelmed. So for younger kids, I always recommend not having all their toys available to them. So having some sort of toy rotation going on so that they've got perhaps less to choose from. This is great for you as a parent because it means less mess can be made. And they're not going to feel overwhelmed and overstimulated and are there more likely to sit and play for a little bit on their own or get into a game or be able to concentrate on playing with you with something because they haven't got all this stuff in the periphery that's distracting them. So I think that is one of the things that I think is really, really key.

Caroline Thor [00:30:12]: We've already said about modeling the behaviour because I think, as you said, that makes it just a more communicative activity for everybody. And I think the way we talk to our kids as well, giving gentle reminders rather than saying go and tidy your room. Things like, oh, would it be okay if we try picking up some Legos now? Rather than insisting that it's done. And when we ask in different ways, we're more likely to get a positive response. And they might say, oh, not just at the moment. And you can say, well, perhaps we could do it in 10 minutes. I'll come back in 10 minutes so that you're giving them some warning that this is what's going to happen rather than them having to suddenly stop what they're in the middle of doing and have to sort of leave and and then they're resentful and it, you know, it disregulates them. This is where I find doing like 10 minutes as a family, it becomes a routine.

Caroline Thor [00:31:09]: That after dinner, this is what we're going to do and then everyone can get on with what they would like to be doing. It then becomes the norm. And I I worked with a family recently and, they had she had 2 quite small kids. The youngest was 3. And I got them into the routine of after dinner, we're gonna put this song on and we're gonna tidy up the toys. And after 3 nights, the 3 year old sat at dinner and said, can we hurry up? I want to go and tidy. So it's,

Penny Williams [00:31:37]: That's so wonderful.

Caroline Thor [00:31:38]: Yeah. It it can become something that's really fun, but there has to be sort of almost a routine to

Penny Williams [00:31:43]: it. Mhmm. Yeah. I hear you talking a lot about family culture and family structure and the how helpful that can be. And, you know, we're just creating a home ecosystem that works for the kids that we have. Right? Being open to that and open to what they're telling us. I have one final question for you before we wrap up. I would hope that you might share what the phrase beautifully complex means to you.

Caroline Thor [00:32:14]: Oh, for me, beautifully complex. It describes my children totally. It is a human that is made up of all these amazingly complex systems that perhaps the outside world see as broken, needs fixing. But for me, there's a total beauty in it because we're seeing the world in a way that I actually think is how we all should be looking at the world. And yes, it's very complex but I am so privileged to be part of their world because they have taught me so much about myself.

Penny Williams [00:33:02]: I love that. That's amazing. Tell everybody where they can find Jiro to connect with you and learn more.

Caroline Thor [00:33:08]: Yeah. The best place is at my website, which is carolinehyphen thaw.com. And if you add forward slash podcast, you can listen to my podcast, Living Clutter Free Forever.

Penny Williams [00:33:23]: And I will link that up in the show notes for this episode, and you can find those show notes at parentingadhdandautism.com/285 for episode 285. You have given us so much permission to do things differently in this conversation, and I am so thankful for that and all of the other strategies that you've shared. I really appreciate you and your insights and the work that you're doing to help neurodivergent families.

Caroline Thor [00:33:55]: Thank you. I appreciate having had the opportunity to talk to you. It's been wonderful.

Penny Williams [00:33:59]: I will see everybody on the next episode. Take good care.

Penny Williams [00:34:04]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingADHDandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.