Elly Both [00:00:03]: I think, you know, harnessing those things, like that hyperfocus or, you know, like that creativity or, you know, putting ideas together that might not ordinarily go together in a, you know, neurotypical brain. I think there's some things that we can really harness and, you know, hopefully, kids can benefit from having those skills too.

Penny Williams [00:00:21]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast, where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back, friends. I am really excited to have this conversation today with Ellie Boff about this wonderful kids book that she's written, a book about ADHD, and kind of how we talk to our kids about their ADHD, how we can reframe that for them, and what your path has been too, Ellie, as far as getting a diagnosis and understanding how to reframe it as something more positive. So I'm really excited that we're gonna get to talk a little bit about your book and all of these great themes that come out of it. But will you start just introduce yourself and let everybody know who you are and what you do.

Elly Both [00:01:26]: Sure. I guess, first and foremost, I'm a mom. So I've got 2 beautiful boys. I run my own business as a sustainability consultant. I'm based in Singapore, originally from Australia. And as you say, I've just become an author, which is still a pinch me moment. But, yeah, just published earlier this year.

Penny Williams [00:01:41]: Yeah. That's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about the book. Let's start there. Sure. What inspired you to write it? What is it about? Why would parents wanna pick it up and read it with their kids?

Elly Both [00:01:51]: Sure. Well, I think, for me, you know, I guess, you know, in terms of when I was diagnosed, I was diagnosed later in life. So I think for me, you know, I guess, you know, in terms of when I was diagnosed, I was diagnosed later in life, so in my early forties, and that process for me, you know, it became quite clear when I was looking at something from one of my own kids. You know, he was displaying a couple of signs that I thought were probably ADHD related, and I was going through a checklist for him and then reflected on that. And I thought some of these are really familiar for myself. And so then kind of went through the process and then the the assessment and diagnosis for me, which is a very clear cut textbook combination type, so inattentive and hyperactive for me. And that process was an incredibly positive one. You know, it was a very easy process. We've got excellent health care, and I was, you know, obviously very privileged and lucky to have all of that here in my hot little hands in Singapore.

Elly Both [00:02:35]: The diagnosis for me was a really positive experience. For me, it allowed me to let go of a lot of things that I didn't realize I had been carrying. Things like guilt and shame and a whole lot of emotions that were kind of wrapped up in this, you know, annoyance and frustration at myself not being able to do some of the things that I wanted to do. And I really did, you know, wanna do a lot of things. Yeah. So I think for me and I had heard a lot of stories about people having the reverse experience of their diagnosis. So people who are saying, oh my gosh. I got this diagnosis.

Elly Both [00:03:04]: There's something wrong with me. You know? Why me? How come I've got this thing to deal with? And my experience just wasn't like that at all. For me, it was like, oh my gosh. I I finally understand. Oh, that's why I do this thing. You know, this is why I feel anxious in some situations and why some things are hard.

Penny Williams [00:03:18]: Yeah.

Elly Both [00:03:18]: So for me, it was like a real reverse, and I wanted to I thought to myself, well, if I've had this experience of a really positive framing of ADHD because it explained a whole lot to me, I wanted to kind of give that to other people, and I was reflecting on, you know, what it would have been like for myself as an 8 year old kid, you know, having a 7 or 8 year old kid at the time, what it would be like to have a book that kind of just explained how my, you know, I call it now my pinball brain, you know, how my my brain's working and making obvious connections and kind of running on the yeah. Yeah. Running at a 100 miles an hour constantly, which is you know, I think there's so many positives out of that as well. I don't think I realized that before, but I think, you know, I've obviously gotten to early forties and been able to have a great career in the corporate world. I started my own business. There've been things that I've done that I'm really proud of even kind of not not being able to know a bit about my brain, but I've been able to effectively harness, you know, what I guess are these superpowers that I talk about in the book. Yeah. And I was really keen to sort of, you know, give this toolkit, if you like, to a kid aged, you know, 5 between 5 9 years old to be able to say, hey.

Elly Both [00:04:24]: Your brain just works differently. This is how it works. Like, you know, take this and and reframe at that age how your brain works. I think that would have been a real gift to have. So I that's what I wanted to create for for kids.

Penny Williams [00:04:35]: Yeah. I love that.

Elly Both [00:04:36]: Thanks.

Penny Williams [00:04:37]: You talk about your pinball brain. When I Yeah. Wrote my first book, I nicknamed my son Ricochet in that book because it was actually a soccer coach after the first practice was like, oh, I'm gonna call him Ricochet. I was like, well, that makes sense because he was, like, pinging everywhere. Right? So it just reminded me of that. But it is, you know, energy. Like, I am the opposite. I am very low key calm.

Penny Williams [00:05:04]: I'm not that hyperactive person, and so I can appreciate that sometimes that energy is really helpful. Yeah. Sometimes Yeah. We really need someone who's thinking a little bit faster, a little bit more creatively.

Penny Williams [00:05:21]: I don't know if you have run across this, but doctor Ned Hallowell talks about mirror traits. So he takes those traits of ADHD that people see as negatives, and he flips them into what can be the positive. Right?

Elly Both [00:05:35]: Yep. I've seen it as, like, the CEO trades. Yes.

Penny Williams [00:05:38]: Yep. Exactly. Exactly. So, you know, I get asked a lot about books, for 1, so I'm so excited to know about your book, to recommend books for kids who have been diagnosed to either see themselves, or reflection themselves, or to understand themselves better. Mhmm. And also, like, how am I supposed to talk to my kid about their diagnosis? Do I tell them? What do I tell them?

Elly Both [00:06:04]: Oh, gosh.

Penny Williams [00:06:04]: And I think maybe the book could even be a bridge for that. Right?

Elly Both [00:06:08]: Yep. Yep. I I mean, it's such a personal thing. I was having this conversation with a mom yesterday. She's, you know, I guess, similar to me. I've got a boy aged 9 years old who's displaying some of these traits and characteristics. And, you know, he he obviously knows something's up, or he know he probably feels different.

Elly Both [00:06:25]: But she's not sure how to kind of talk to him about it. And we had this most amazing conversation that in the end, she was just like, oh, you know, like, because I know I've got you know, she's she's saying, I'm just displaying traits of this, and I'm okay with that. So, you know, and I and we've kind of got to the realization for both of us that maybe he is also sensing that that he's maybe different to other kids and wants to kind of understand his brain a little better. I mean, it is such a personal way that whether you, you know, whether you choose to assess and diagnose, whether you choose to medicate, but also how you choose to talk about this with your kid. It's all very personal. I don't think there's a, you know, there's not a one size fits all way, but it just has to feel right to you. It has to be an authentic way that you communicate with your kids. And, yeah, I guess the book hopefully can help that.

Elly Both [00:07:06]: I I really hope that that is the case. I've had some lovely feedback just in the last week or 2 from, you know, friends and their kids just saying about how much the kid really got that he was reflected or he or she was reflected in the pages of the book. I got one review actually this just this week on Amazon. And every time the kid turned the page, she said, that's me, mommy. That's me. That was really, really brought to tears by it because I thought, gosh, you know, just just to have a kid who's, you know, maybe not understanding how or why things are difficult for them Yeah. To sit and read this book and then to sort of say, this is this is this thing. This is what I've been dealing with.

Elly Both [00:07:43]: This is this thing that I have, and it's not a diagnosis tool. Obviously, I need to be upfront about that, but just the reflection of I really get that this is how my brain works now. And, you know, for a kid to have that, I think that's just, as I say, a really powerful tool in the toolbox. So that maybe they can, you know and and for parents as well. It's it's designed to be co read, you know, grown up and kid. And I hope that also parents, you know, will reflect on perhaps some of the ways that, you know, we we try so hard to do the best for our kids, and and we want our kids to behave a certain way at times and to do the right things at times. And man, oh man, it's the most frustrating thing in the world. Like Mhmm.

Elly Both [00:08:20]: You know, it's not just the ricochet of the brain. It's also physical ricochet too I find in my household. Mhmm. Yeah. But I also think, you know, if we can understand our kids just a little bit better and understand that, you know what? There's some things that we just have to accept. Some things we're not gonna be able to change. And I think once we get to that that point of acceptance, then it is not easy. But once we get to that point of acceptance, then we can, you know, embrace and harness what is really awesome about having ADHD.

Elly Both [00:08:46]: There are challenges. There's no sugarcoating at all in this book. Like, I'm really very authentic about that as well. But what I do think is that there's just so much that we can harness and help kids, you know, as I talk about the superpowers in the book. How can what's your superpower, and how can you harness that to really, you know, reach your potential? And I think that that's that's really the most important thing that I wanted to share in the book too. There's so many I think, you know, you you probably have understood this too, Penny, but so many labels that kids are gonna get.

Penny Williams [00:09:12]: Yep.

Elly Both [00:09:12]: You know, stupid, lazy, you know, annoying.

Elly Both [00:09:17]: I have some of my mom said that to me yesterday. I thought, oh gosh. If the kid's getting the label of annoying at the age of 5 or 6, like, what kind of a life is that gonna give to them? And it just you know, it's heartbreaking. But if you can reframe it and say, do you know what? Compared to that, ADHD is not such a terrible label. And hopefully, this book can say, if we can harness things like, you know, one of my kids loves to draw and write comics. And if I can harness that in him, whether or not, you know, he might end up being something completely different. He might wanna be a gardener. He might wanna be a doctor.

Elly Both [00:09:45]: Like, whatever he wants to do, I'm fine. Yeah. But to harness that thing where he knows he's great at that, he loves doing it, and his confidence and his self esteem is then linked to something that he's really good at. You know, and I feel emotional talking about it because I I want, you know, I want my kid to feel seen and understood by his friends and by his teachers and by other adults in the community. I want him to know that there are things that are really challenging for him, and that's okay. But also, there are really cool things that his brain can do. And when he gets into this hyperfocus, drawing a comic, it's just the most beautiful thing. He's just like, you know, he's really elsewhere.

Elly Both [00:10:20]: He's really somewhere else. And it's just it's just the best thing to see. So I think, you know, harnessing those things, you know, like that hyperfocus or, you know, like that creativity or, you know, putting ideas together that might not ordinarily go together in a, you know, neurotypical brain.

Penny Williams [00:10:35]: Yep.

Elly Both [00:10:35]: I think there's some things that we can really harness and, you know, hopefully, kids can benefit from having those skills too. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:10:42]: I think that, you know, I I talk about this a lot. I believe that every person has greatness within them.

Elly Both [00:10:47]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:10:47]: No matter what their struggles are, no matter what their background.

Elly Both [00:10:50]: I love that.

Penny Williams [00:10:51]: Sometimes we don't help them find it

Elly Both [00:10:53]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:10:54]: And we sort of stuff it down, which is really sad. But, you know, what you're talking about, helping them find, like, what is your superpower? What is it that either ignites you or that you're really good at and people, you know, want to be around you or find out about these things from you.

Elly Both [00:11:11]: Yep.

Penny Williams [00:11:12]: Like, when we give kids the opportunity to build confidence around those things, then the negativity, the differences don't have as much of a weight, I think, in in the negative. But it can be really hard to do. You know? As you said, acceptance and starting to shift so that you're thinking about things more positively. You're shifting the way you're thinking about it. Right? It starts with us. We have to do that first.

Elly Both [00:11:40]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:11:40]: And that can be really challenging. It can be a really long process, but also, you know, once you get there, like you were talking about earlier, you were talking to this other mom, and you both have ADHD or ADHD traits, and you both think about it positively. And the first thing I thought as you said that was, what a great model for your kids. They are automatically gonna be more likely to think about the positives because their parents are thinking about the positives. Right? You're guiding them to do that.

Penny Williams [00:12:14]: And that's so magical. It's so needed.

Elly Both [00:12:18]: Yeah.

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Penny Williams [00:14:26]: His therapist had him lay on this giant piece of paper, and she outlined his body. And then he got up, and they filled it in with everything they could think of about him. Right? So that he could see that there was lots of stuff. It wasn't just ADHD. It wasn't just the stuff that he struggled with. And I'm just imagining that you probably have other ideas about how to help kids focus more on that positive stuff.

Elly Both [00:14:50]: Yeah. Well, I think I mean, I can talk about it for, you know, for myself, and I was reflecting on it recently. You know, how do I help kids develop kind of these superpowers? Like we've said, I think acceptance is the first thing. Mhmm. But then it's really like, you know, understanding what makes your kid tick or, like you said, what lights them up from inside. You know, I think if we already know so, you know, I've got one who loves to draw and one who loves to do his comics and write stories and all these fantastical things that happen. So I think it's almost, for me, just watching what they love to do and then helping foster that that creativity that they have. Like, I I I think, you know, for me, it's just like you kind of said, getting out a piece of paper and just sitting there and and, you know, drawing.

Elly Both [00:15:29]: I mean, I think especially for boys, you know, people are always expecting that they need to get this energy out through sport, and I think that's also really helpful. Like, I need my exercise or I can't function well. But I also think that there's a level of calm and creativity that we can unlock in everybody when it comes to, like, that kind of artistic side. And so I think I mean, fostering that, first of all, just brings a level of calm to my household that I love. That's not common, but I do love it. Mhmm. And I also just think, you know, watching what what lights them up or, you know, what books they love to read or, you know, what are the things that they wanna talk about. I mean, we've talked for many, many years in my household, you know, well beyond the the 4 year old obsession with dinosaurs.

Elly Both [00:16:09]: Like, we've we've had the dinosaur obsession for many, many years. But I I love hearing about this because it's what literally lights my kid up. Mhmm. We've had How to Train Your Dragon. We've read the series, you know, constantly over and over again. We're now onto the diary of the wimpy kids. I just love it when my kid comes and wants to talk to me about whatever it is, And even if that's hours on end talking about, you know, whatever this obsession of the moment is in ADHD style, I think that's something that I really love and wanna foster too. So I I love having, I mean, conversations with my 9 year well, almost 9 year old is just gets better and better.

Elly Both [00:16:44]: And the creativity that I see and the happiness that he brings to conversation and the energy, you know, there's this level of authenticity with him that I think is maybe an ADHD thing too, but he's just got this beautiful way of, like, you know, expressing everything and and really being open and sharing about things. So no real tips or tricks from me, but just that conversation is just really what, you know, what lights him up and just makes me feel really connected, and and I just love that. I love fostering that with him.

Penny Williams [00:17:12]: Yeah. That connection is so valuable too. Yeah. So much of parenting is about relationship. And Yes. When you're really fostering the positive and you're really, you know, trying to help kids find their own thing, whatever it is that they're good at or that excites them, then you're guiding them down that path of success automatically.

Penny Williams [00:17:34]: But you never know where that stuff is gonna lead either. Yeah. Like, I've had so many conversations with parents around gaming. Right? We've all struggled with screen time and

Elly Both [00:17:44]: Oh gosh.

Penny Williams [00:17:45]: And getting used to that and managing that and helping our kids have a balanced life. And for a long time, it did sort of feel like just a waste of time. Mhmm. But now that industry is huge, and there are many different types of jobs and careers and opportunities that you could work in that field. Right?

Elly Both [00:18:04]: Yep.

Penny Williams [00:18:04]: You could be an artist, a storyteller, a coder, a marketer, a salesperson. Right? There's just all kinds of stuff. Yeah. And so I think when our kids are showing us what they're so interested in, we have to be open to going down that path.

Elly Both [00:18:20]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:18:21]: Whatever that path is. And know too that it may not stick. In 2 months, they may not care about that thing at all anymore, and it could be on to the next, and that's okay too. Right? Like, I think that as we were talking about before we got on, you know, I love to have these conversations very organically, because I think that's where the good stuff comes up. Right? When we're not so Yeah. Mapped out and rigid about our path, And I think the same is true for our kids. Yeah. Like, we just need to follow their lead

Elly Both [00:18:53]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:18:53]: And help them to navigate it on that more positive note.

Elly Both [00:18:58]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:18:59]: And they'll really get there. But I love that you've created this book that really fosters to the just the conversations about it. It's hard to talk to your kid about a diagnosis or something they're struggling with or telling them that maybe they're gonna struggle with this forever, and they have to figure out a way forward through it.

Elly Both [00:19:17]: Yeah. It's not easy.

Penny Williams [00:19:19]: Yeah. Having something to really foster that conversation is amazing.

Elly Both [00:19:24]: Yeah. You know, and the publisher that I wrote through is is called A Kids Co, and they're a wonderful company out of Portland, Oregon, actually, in the US. And these books are all part of a a much larger series, obviously, than Just Mine. There's some wonderful titles like A Kids' Book About Racism was the original one. There's A Kids' Book About Equality, a new one about periods. So just all these topics that it's sometimes really tricky. White privilege is another one. Empathy.

Elly Both [00:19:47]: Like, so many of these topics are just I would not know where to start. Mhmm. But, you know, if they're books that are designed to be read, you read with your kid, and then it's it's an open dialogue that kind of comes after that. And what we do at the end of the book, there's like an outro where I kind of explain, you know, now you're probably wondering how you can further the conversation with your kid. And I've got a number of questions in there. So one of them is, what does ADHD mean to you? So the kid might may well reflect oh, actually, I think that resonates with me or I see some of myself in in the pages of this book. You know, do you ever feel like you have your head in the clouds or bouncing off the walls? Some of the things that I kind of talk about in the book.

Elly Both [00:20:24]: And many others here too, but it's also like, you know, do you ever feel worried or challenged or something's hard for you to pick up initially? Or, you know, like, just having it in the pages of a book is less confrontational too. So a kid may well, you know, really open up about some stuff that's happening at school. You know, I know sometimes it's again, we're back to my drawing, out on the back table, you know, in our place here. But sometimes they're the times when the kids are really opening up to talk about things that are happening at school or, you know, whether these bigger kids who are not being very nice to the littler kids. But I think, you know, in the pages of a book or when it's a different kind of environment, kids are much more willing to kind of bring that those challenges to the surface. And then I think often they're worried that we're gonna say, oh, you shouldn't have done that or, you know, did you do something to make these kids be mean to you or whatever it is? And oftentimes, it's not. You know, like, the kids are just who they are and and maybe they stand out because of their uniqueness. I'm not sure.

Elly Both [00:21:18]: But, you know, I want to be able to have these conversations with both my kids to sort of say, well, you know, what can we do? And not label kids as bullies necessarily, but what can we do to say that behavior is not okay? But also, I'm really glad that you're telling me this because now I can help you find some kind of a solution. So Yeah. It's just about giving our kids those tools to kind of help that.

Penny Williams [00:21:41]: Yeah. Stories foster conversation, I think. Yeah. You know? If you read with your kid, whether you read it to them, or you both maybe separately not they would read, like, Harry Potter and stuff together, because that's what he loved. And as a family, after dinner, they would sit, and one of them would have a turn, and they would read aloud together just to, like, find ways to spend time together with your teenage daughter. Yes. But it really opened the door for a lot of conversation too and stuff, and it just created a space for togetherness, whether you know? So often, I think when we wanna talk to our kids, we come at them with questions. We ask them how things are going.

Penny Williams [00:22:35]: Right? We we put them on the spot.

Elly Both [00:22:38]: Fastest way to see the walls go up.

Penny Williams [00:22:40]: Exactly. And so, like, if you can talk about a story or you can talk about a character, it just creates that time where you might or you might not have conversations that are meaningful. You might learn some things about your kid. You might not. But at least you have that connection, which is so important.

Elly Both [00:23:01]: Yeah. Exactly.

Penny Williams [00:23:02]: Books are crazy.

Elly Both [00:23:03]: I love the idea of of, like, you know, having that connection still with the teens because I know that's coming for me. I know you're in the thick of it, but, but, yeah, to have ideas of, you know, how do we continue to have these relationships, which, you know, hopefully, we're sowing the seeds now, but, you know, the teenage years are kind of like the uncharted territory for a lot of us. So I love that idea to continue that connection. And it's also, like you say, you know, we ask the questions and everyone kind of shuts down, but but creating that kind of authentic way to connect that will then foster those, you know, those close conversations. I think that's a really important important thing to have.

Penny Williams [00:23:36]: Yeah. My nephew is younger. I wish that she had had that idea and shared it with me when my kids were still in school because I totally would have tried it, but I never.

Elly Both [00:23:45]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:23:46]: Because they were older, I just never thought that they would want to do it. And I was really surprised that he was into doing that with them. And I thought, okay, well, maybe I should have posed, you know, these opportunities, no matter what age. Yeah. That's a good lesson for everyone listening who has it coming up. And there's so many stories with characters who have ADHD or something similar too. So, you know, you can read things together where your kid can sort of see themselves in that character and feel less alone.

Elly Both [00:24:18]: Exactly. And I also love I mean, you know, my kids love the Captain Underpants series and the Dog Man and everything by Doug Pilkey who obviously, you know, had ADHD, has ADHD. And he's very open about that, and I think, you know, like, this is a really cool thing to say. You know, there are some people in the world who've done amazing things and have this condition. So Yeah. It's not a stopper. It's not a blocker. Like, you know, Richard Branson gosh.

Elly Both [00:24:40]: I mean, I could probably name 20 people who've done incredible things and made a huge impact globally who, you know, have this Ferrari brain. So, you know, I think perhaps that's part of the reason why they've been successful, that they've been able to harness the unique brain that they have and, you know, being able to build those connections or foster that creativity and, you know, be able to achieve some amazing results. And I think those examples in the world are really important for our kids as well. Mhmm. Then, you know, Captain Underpants is a huge favorite of mine and also my kids.

Penny Williams [00:25:12]: Yes. So many kids

Elly Both [00:25:13]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:25:13]: Enjoy Captain Underpants.

Elly Both [00:25:15]: So naughty and silly.

Penny Williams [00:25:16]: The first time one of my kids brought one home, I looked at it and I thought, what are you making? Like, I didn't know yet. And then I was like, yes. Yes. Go for it. It's great. There's so many examples in the world, whether it's a fictional character or a real life person. There's so many examples of people who found a path to success, and it's,

Elly Both [00:25:35]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:25:36]: It's possible. And just having that frame of mind with our kids is everything.

Elly Both [00:25:42]: Exactly.

Penny Williams [00:25:42]: So you've set a wonderful example for us Oh, thank you. Of how to go forward with a more positive outlook.

Elly Both [00:25:49]: That means a lot.

Penny Williams [00:25:50]: On being different. Right?

Elly Both [00:25:53]: Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:25:53]: Yeah. Tell everybody where they can find you online or find the book.

Elly Both [00:25:58]: Absolutely. So you can find me at, ellyboth.com, and I'm also on Instagram at today we write. I love to journal. I encourage people to write a little bit every day. So that's my journaling prompt as many days of the week as I can muster it. And you can also find the book on Amazon globally and some local bookstores as well. So, yes, look forward to to hearing what everyone thinks of the book.

Penny Williams [00:26:20]: Well, thank you for sharing some of your personal story and sharing your outlook on ADHD with the world, and this is all that's really gonna help us have meaningful conversations with our kids and help our kids feel better about their differences and who they are. I'm so thankful for what you're doing.

Elly Both [00:26:37]: Oh, my pleasure.

Penny Williams [00:26:38]: Well, I will see everybody on the next episode. Take good care. Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandautism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.