Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:00:03]: Because I'm acknowledging my child's sensory needs doesn't mean I'm gonna allow my child to be a feral wild animal. And again, parents get to decide kind of at what level they're at. But it's not an automatic, like, if I don't force my child to wear shoes today, they're gonna be a total jerk and never amount to anything. But I think that's where we go.

Penny Williams [00:00:25]: Welcome to the Beautifully Complex podcast where I share insights and strategies on parenting neurodivergent kids straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your atypical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to Beautifully Complex. I am so excited to have Gabrielle Nicollet with me here today from complicated kids podcast. And we're gonna talk about complicated kids, but, specifically, we're gonna talk about behavior and how there's something on the outside that you're experiencing. There's also something on the inside that is going on for your kid or yourself that is creating that outside behavior.

Penny Williams [00:01:18]: I'm really excited to talk about this because I haven't had this conversation before in talking in those terms. What's going on inside? We talk about how behavior is sometimes instinctual. It's not a choice. The body just reacts, and I think that's gonna tie into what we're talking about here. But I'm really excited to have your unique perspective on this conversation, and, hopefully, it's gonna really resonate with some of our listeners. So starting out, let's have you tell everybody who you are and what you do.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:01:50]: I am Gabrielle Nicollet. I am a speech therapist by training. My position at my private practice, which is called speech kids, is head toddler whisperer. So, I, as the name implies, love anybody under the age of about 3.

Penny Williams [00:02:07]: So fun.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:02:08]: And, the more frustrated the better because then we can really get in there and work with the nervous system, which we're gonna be talking about in a little bit here. But that's my jam. So those are my people. Awesome. On the adult side of the equation, I also do some parent coaching for the parents of said toddlers.

Penny Williams [00:02:23]: Love it.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:02:24]: And so that makes it a really fun operation.

Penny Williams [00:02:27]: Yeah. Nice. Toddlers are so fun. There's so much to dig into there in that age group, right, and and to really untangle. It's so fun, though, just to I I miss little voices as we were talking about before we got on. I have young adult kids. You have teen and young adult kids, and, oh, I just love to hear little toddler voices now. It's so fun because I miss it.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:02:50]: Yeah. And they really you know, it's funny because I think we give toddlers number 1, we give toddlers about rap, but also we presume that they are not, and they're not fully formed humans, but we presume that they're not in possession of a personality. And nothing could be further from the truth. If you have more than 1 kid, you know they come out the way they come out.

Penny Williams [00:03:13]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:03:13]: And then, you know, obviously, environment is shaping them and whatever's going on is shaping them and their behavior, but they are unique human beings from the get go. And so that's what I love about it, is they're kind of unfettered by social expectations, by anxieties about what they're supposed to be doing or not. And so, you know, I can really go to town and just kind of strip all of my stuff away also when I'm working with those guys. And we just have a good time.

Penny Williams [00:03:42]: I love it. I love it. Where do you want to start in this conversation about behavior? Maybe we should start with kind of what's going on in the body. You wanna start there?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:03:53]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, actually, I might start in the other direction.

Penny Williams [00:03:56]: Okay.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:03:57]: Because often, we're looking at behavior, and that's kind of the last stop on the train, but that's the one that's most easily seen.

Penny Williams [00:04:06]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:04:06]: Right? So behavior is immediately visible on the outside. It's what the child or the person is doing, and it feels very concrete. It's like they are kicking the wall. Right? That's the behavior.

Penny Williams [00:04:19]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:04:19]: They are banging their head, biting their nails, doing whatever they're doing. But what we often forget, because then we're kind of and this is normal, humans do this. We're, like, judging that behavior. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Is this a problem or not? We forget that there is an internal reality to that behavior. And what do I mean by that? What I mean is there's a whole set of neurophysiological processes going on Yeah. That is resulting in that behavior. The behavior is not, existing independent of anybody's nervous system. The behavior is arising from the nervous system.

Penny Williams [00:05:04]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:04]: And so it becomes very important then to understand, like, oh, well, I'm seeing this behavior. What does it mean In terms of the state of the body and brain of the person I'm observing this behavior in.

Penny Williams [00:05:19]: Yeah. Yeah. What's it signaling? Right? What is it telling me?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:23]: Yeah. And so where it gets challenging, I think I think most people are not comfortable, but they recognize, like, an explosive state. Right? When they see a meltdown, they're like, oh, child is in distress.

Penny Williams [00:05:36]: Right?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:37]: And and, you know, I I think probably your listeners are evolved enough to know, like, they're not giving you a hard time, they're having a hard time. That's like a big reframe that we can really dig into, but I think the ones that are tricky are the quiet ones.

Penny Williams [00:05:53]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:05:54]: Are the I call them the imploders, right, where the stress level is just as high, but maybe there's no behavior to observe, or it looks like there's no behavior to observe. But behavior is actually the absence of behavior.

Penny Williams [00:06:06]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. That freeze state or shut down. Right? Yeah. Yeah. I think those kids really fall into the cracks.

Penny Williams [00:06:16]: They slide into the radar so often Yeah. Because they look compliant, and we don't realize that they're struggling. They're struggling inside. Right?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:06:27]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we overvalue compliance, generally. And what's interesting about that nowadays is, you know, we want we say we wanna raise young girls in particular to speak up for themselves and to self advocate. And even for kids with, you know, neurodivergent kids, ADHD, autism, we want them to self advocate.

Penny Williams [00:06:48]: Right.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:06:49]: Okay. Well, when does that start? Well, it starts when you're a toddler or even earlier, and you shake your head no that you don't want to eat that food or somebody asks you to put your shoes on and you say no. That's the beginning of self advocacy and self efficacy. And we try, most of us, to shut that down. We're, like, deeply offended that our 2 year old doesn't wanna put their shoes on.

Penny Williams [00:07:17]: That they're not listening to us. Right? Yeah. Yeah. They're not complying. Yeah. Yeah. Compliance is so overrated.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:07:26]: Yeah. And yet, right, like, people have places to go and work to do, and we have to sort of come to agreement. But I think most of the time, the big people, the adults in the equation are like, no, no, no, the way we come to agreement is you agree with me. Instead of kind of considering and again, back to this kind of nervous system idea. There are 2 of us in this interaction, and the way I get, you know, air quotes compliance is not by overriding your, independence or your your nervous system. Right? I don't control you.

Penny Williams [00:08:04]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:08:05]: But that's really hard because we would love to control people. I mean, I wanna control my husband and my children. Who doesn't?

Penny Williams [00:08:12]: Right? It'd be so much easier if that's what it was all about. Right? It wasn't so complicated. Yeah. I wanna kind of explore that example that you gave because so often I hear from parents, it's great to understand, but tell me what to do. So if your younger kid, probably, let's say elementary age toddler, is saying, no. I'm not gonna put my shoes on, and it is about time to jump in the car and get to school. You have to get there on time because mom has to get to work on time. Right? And there's all of these pressures at that moment.

Penny Williams [00:08:47]: How do we look at it more collaboratively? And that that refusal is a signal, but also get where we need to go? How would you handle that situation with that kid?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:09:04]: Yeah. And the first thing I would say is, and this is applicable to all children, most children, most of the time, is validate. Validate, validate, validate.

Penny Williams [00:09:17]: Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:09:18]: You don't wanna put your shoes on right now. That costs you nothing, not even very much time, and it can get you a whole lot of cooperation. Because if I'm coming to you, right, so child has we've made a demand, put your shoes on. Child has counter demanded and said, no. I'm not doing that. We can continue in a tug of war, and that is gonna be fruitless and exasperating for everybody. And depending on how large your child is, and I'm talking about physically large, you may be tempted to, like, haul them up and, like, put them physically in the car, and I've done it. Most of us have done it.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:09:57]: It's not a great thing to do. Mm-mm. But the problem is they're gonna get bigger, and you're not gonna be able to do that anymore. So if you're relying on, like, physical control, that's a losing proposition. Okay. Fine. Yeah. So then what? Validation completely it does you don't you don't even drop the rope, you get rid of the rope.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:10:15]: You're like, there's no rope here. We're on the same side.

Penny Williams [00:10:18]: Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:10:20]: I see you. You don't want this. Again, costs you nothing. And then what happens from there is, again, going to be up to the needs of the situation, the needs of the child. Is putting on their shoes a battle that you fight every day, or is this a one off? Is putting on their shoes very challenging for them and they haven't slept well the night before and right they might need a little bit of grace this morning? There are any number of things that you can do, I would say starting with giving them maybe one extra minute. I'll ask you again in a minute. We have a minute. We do have to leave, but we've got a minute.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:11:01]: I should back up here, validation and staying calm. Two tools that you can use on the front end. Giving them a minute, and then asking them, and Claire Lerner, who I love, calls this 2 good choices, right? Do you want to put your shoes on or should I just bring them with me in the car? Or should I put them on? You will have kids who will be like, no. No shoes, and they throw the shoes.

Penny Williams [00:11:24]: Yep. Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:11:25]: In which case, you you gather up the shoes, and you say, it's time to go. And then, you know, again, physical coercion, I don't like it. There are times when you really can't be late for work, and maybe we kind of have to at some point. I think the the equation changes dramatically if we're talking about a kid who's in autistic burnout, and I'm sure you've got some stuff on

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:11:49]: autistic burnout. In that particular case, all bets are off. Validation, you can do if they are amenable to being talked to or at. Right? And probably everything else is just going by the wayside at that moment.

Penny Williams [00:12:03]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:12:04]: Because you're not demanding that they put their shoes on, and you're probably not even demanding, hopefully, that they go to school that day. So that is a, I think, kind of a special case.

Penny Williams [00:12:12]: Yeah. A caveat.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:12:13]: For kids who aren't in burnout though, and again, coming back to the nervous system, like, burnout is a real neurological thing. Yes. Right? And anything anywhere on that spectrum of behavior is also a real nervous system neurological thing. So it's not fake. People like to say that, like, little kids are manipulative. In order to manipulate someone, you have to do a lot of frontal lobe, like prefrontal cortex work. Like, you have to understand their motivation.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:12:48]: You have to understand how to circumvent their motivation. Like, there's a ton of stuff that toddlers in particular, but also early elementary kids, they're not able to do. That's not how their brains work. So they're not manipulating. They are strategizing.

Penny Williams [00:13:01]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:13:01]: Right? They're trying to accomplish their goal, which is to continue to play whatever they were playing before you said now, it's time to put the shoes on. So it's not like, you know, they're like, oh, thanks, mom, for telling me that I have to do this thing I don't wanna do.

Penny Williams [00:13:15]: Yeah. Yeah. Even kids who are manipulating, though, I always ask myself why. Why? Why do they feel the need to do that? Yeah. Because often, there's some anxiety or there's something going on. Right? There's something there. But those younger kids, I love that you said maybe pick up the shoes and take them in the car with you, try to get them on there, because that's what I was thinking. It's like I immediately had flashbacks to when my kid was, like, in kindergarten and 1st grade, sitting at the front door by the shoe cubby, in the floor, screaming, upset about putting shoes on.

Penny Williams [00:13:49]: And it was a sensory thing for us at that time, and I had to figure that out. He couldn't tell me that. Right? He had no idea that the seams and the socks were making him lose his marbles. He just was having that, right, nervous system reaction. I can't do this. Please don't make me do this. Right? And so that digging deeper is so, so important for any of these behaviors.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:14:20]: There was, I was observing a family. I can't remember where I was, but the child's underwear was poking into his skin. And he noticed it. I and I think it was more of a visual thing than a sensory thing, honestly, because the underwear had been on all day. But he noticed it, and he was quite distressed. And parents started to say to jump right to, it's okay. It's been on all day.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:14:42]: You don't have a problem.

Penny Williams [00:14:44]: Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:14:44]: And that's the very moment, and I happened to be there. So I was like, hang on. You're noticing something about your underwear and your skin. Again, validation costs you nothing. It doesn't mean and I think this is where we get hung up. Because I'm acknowledging my child's sensory needs doesn't mean I'm not gonna ask them to wear shoes. It doesn't mean I've completely, like, I'm gonna allow my child to be a feral wild animal. And again, autistic burnout, different scenario because we might actually not require shoes in that case.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:15:21]: Like Yeah. We get to decide, you know, parents get to decide kind of at what level they're at. But it's not an automatic, like, if I don't force my child to wear shoes today, they're gonna be a total jerk and never amount to anything. But I think that's where we go.

Penny Williams [00:15:35]: Oh, it is totally. It is totally where we go. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard sometimes not to because we want the best for our kids and their future, and so we're constantly future casting. We are constantly thinking about what does this mean about the future, and we have to stop it. Like, you know, all I have to say to that is stop it. And I know it's hard, but we have to stop because it is not helping in the moment, and helping in the moment is actually gonna make so much more of a positive impact on that future than just worrying about the future and trying to force things.

Penny Williams [00:16:16]: Right? Yeah. It's all about thinking about, you know, what can we do today to make a difference? Because when we make a difference today, we're making a difference for every future day also.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:16:28]: And this is true of the nervous system, generally. So In general, complicated kids, ADHD, autistic, actually throw all of them in there. Right?

Penny Williams [00:16:37]: Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:16:37]: Their nervous systems have hair triggers. Okay. Which means, right, their brains are constantly scanning for danger. And so this innocuous request for shoes I love the shoes because it happens every day. It's, like, seems so banal. Right? It seems so obvious. Like, of course, you're gonna have to put your shoes on.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:16:54]: You love going to the park. But in that moment, that nervous system, your child, is responding to that request as if a lion is about to attack. Yeah. Whether or not there's an actual lion, which of course there isn't, whether or not it's a reasonable demand, which it is, for somebody to put their shoes on, it's not being perceived that way.

Penny Williams [00:17:20]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:17:21]: And perception is everything.

Penny Williams [00:17:22]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:17:23]: So to them, that is a dangerous thing, a dangerous situation. So now brain goes on lockdown, nobody is learning. And the reason I kinda wanted to illustrate that is because what you're saying, what we do today impacts tomorrow and the next day and the next day, And come to find out, staying as well regulated as you can, in other words, meeting the energy level of the situation that you're in At kind of the right level is crucial for everything. Yeah. It's crucial for whether or not you're gonna be able to hold a job, whether or not you're gonna be able to get dressed, learn math, go to school, talk to another human. Right? Staying well regulated, and by the way, co regulation is how that happens Is crucial.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:18:17]: And so if we've got nervous systems that are We need fewer lions

Penny Williams [00:18:32]: Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:18:32]: During the day.

Penny Williams [00:18:33]: Yeah. Yeah. That's why I love the low demand parenting approach because, you know, you can reduce some demands. There are some things that you as a parent or an educator are getting really worked up about that you can let go of for now. Right? For today, for this month, for this year. You can let it go and push it into the future, and everything will be fine, and, actually, everything will get better. Right? Like, that's what I talk to parents so often about when I do coaching with them is, like, what can we let go of? We are stacking demand on demand on demand, pressure, pressure, pressure, which is stress, stress, stress. Right? How do we reduce that so that things are doable? Because when that meter is way up here, things aren't doable.

Penny Williams [00:19:20]: The thinking brain isn't accessible. Kids just can't get things done. And the same is true for us as adults. Like, we're talking about every human being here, not just neurodivergent kids. Every human being has this autonomic nervous system that tells us whether we're safe or unsafe, and reacts if we feel unsafe. I would love to talk a second, though, about really digging a little deeper on what we mean by safe and unsafe, because and and this was true for myself until I started learning about the nervous system, is that we think danger means we're in imminent physical danger, but you also feel safe or unsafe socially, psychologically, emotionally. Right? And that's really the bulk of what we're talking about here, I think.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:20:08]: Yeah. And the neural mechanisms are the same Which is what's so fascinating. Right?

Penny Williams [00:20:14]: Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:20:14]: Heart rate goes up. Skin becomes flushed. Palms start to sweat. Like, you just kinda start sweating everywhere.

Penny Williams [00:20:23]: Not in your stomach. Your stomach

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:20:24]: is contained. Stomach. Yeah. You know, scanning for the exits.

Penny Williams [00:20:29]: Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:20:29]: Ready to fight, fight, or freeze.

Penny Williams [00:20:32]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:20:33]: And so what's interesting about that, right, different behavioral demand, same nervous system response. But yeah. No. Listen. It's true that in modern life, there almost never is a tiger or a lion around the corner. There is a speeding car in the alley. Okay. You know? And I I know some folks with kids who have, you know, high impulsivity levels for whom that was very, very stressful and rightfully so.

Penny Williams [00:21:01]: Yeah. Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:21:02]: But it is psychological, social, academic. Right? Performative, like sports, school kinds of things, even something as frequent and normal as a transition Yep. Between, with Jen and I, my my co lead at Raising Orchid Kids, where we run classes for parents of kids with special needs. And we say, there is now, and there is the not now.

Penny Williams [00:21:32]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:21:33]: And so if you've got a brain who doesn't perceive the not now as being desirable, because we're now is what's desirable. Yep. Any transition is gonna throw that off. And so then, yeah, what are the strategies that we're using to signal to the child's nervous system? Hey, it's safe to leave this activity and go to the next one. That's like a whole course slash interview unto itself, right?

Penny Williams [00:21:59]: How do

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:22:00]: we set the transitions? How do we get kids to transition? And that tends to be like when t when I'm talking to teachers, like, how do I get them to transition? Well, make sure kids are calm and make sure you're calm too, and then we can start to work Yeah. In that field. Right?

Penny Williams [00:22:17]: Yeah. That's the issue, is we tend to escalate. I call it co-escalation.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:22:23]: Yes.

Penny Williams [00:22:23]: We can either co-escalate or we can co-regulate.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:22:26]: Yeah. I saw a brilliant Instagram reel recently about that. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:22:30]: Yeah. Yeah. Like, if we come into the situation matching the intensity, which our body does automatically, then we are only escalating. We're adding fuel to that kid's fire, and we are making it bigger. But if we can come in with some semblance of calm, right, we I think we overuse the word calm when we're regulated. It's not always calm. It's matching the energy of the situation as you had said earlier, but we have to come in in the way that we want that kid to be experiencing that moment. You know, I was definitely the parent who did this before I knew better.

Penny Williams [00:23:12]: Now looking back, it's, like, such common sense, and it makes me laugh every time I think about it. But when your kid is having a hard time, they're maybe, you know, saying not nice things to you or yelling or throwing things, whatever, and you come in and you start yelling at them and saying not nice things to them, what are you teaching? Right? Like, you're showing them that that's how you deal with frustration and anger. You're reinforcing what they're doing. It's, like, such common sense, right, when you think about it. But we don't think about it because we're taught to just force compliance and be in control.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:23:52]: Yeah. It's like, yeah, but if I don't teach them who's boss, then they're not gonna understand their place, and it totally is yes. A control based might makes right approach, which nobody would say that they very few people would say that they want to use with their child. Very few people would say, I would like to teach my child how to be a bully

Penny Williams [00:24:16]: Right.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:24:16]: Or a terrible boss. And yet, that's what we're doing. And let's give ourselves some grace. We're doing that because that's how our parents did it. And that's how their parents did it. And, you know, through time and memorial, I mean, Child development as a field is like, what, 60 years old, if that, I don't know, maybe a 100? Maybe.

Penny Williams [00:24:39]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:24:40]: So, you know, in this in the span of human history, like, we're just now understanding this idea that, like, children are people with opinions and needs and valid desires and wants. That doesn't mean they get to run the show, Right? We don't let toddlers run around the house with a knife, but we do let them run around the house and we should.

Penny Williams [00:25:00]: Yeah. So Because play is so important too, and that's a whole another conversation. Right? I think, like, just sort of relaxing. That's what I think about, is, like, if you can just relax and be that parent who is more relaxed and not so tangled up and stressed out about the way you're parenting even. Like, we are all human beings. We all make mistakes. Even those of us who work and help other parents, we still are reactive. We still aren't always relaxed or calm or, you know, not worrying about the future as much as today and all these things.

Penny Williams [00:25:50]: Right? And so, you know, it takes practice. It takes work. It takes really just setting the intention. I think that's where it starts. I want to show up differently, so I'm I'm going to start to shift.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:05]: Yeah. I think the other piece of that and the reason we get tripped up so much is we've not been educated in the idea that it is completely normal and expected to experience unpleasant emotion from time to time. It's normal to feel embarrassed if your child is having a meltdown in the line at Target. But that doesn't mean we solve for embarrassment by yelling at our kid.

Penny Williams [00:26:34]: Yes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:26:35]: Right? Emotions are to be experienced both by our children and ourselves, and we're not particularly good at that because there is no emotional literacy curriculum. There was no emotional literacy curriculum when we were kids, and now Yeah. It's coming, which is fantastic. But we don't have to solve for our own discomfort by putting it off on somebody else. I interviewed, Deborah Brows for the podcast, and she she called it, it was genius, an emotional hot potato. Right? And it's like, here you go. I don't want this.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:27:06]: You take it.

Penny Williams [00:27:07]: I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And it yeah. And so often, it's like it spews out. Like, it is just like, here. Here you go. Like, it just happens.

Penny Williams [00:27:17]: I'm tossing it somewhere else. I can't hold it. It's too hot. It's too uncomfortable.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:27:21]: Yeah. Because if you change your behavior, maybe I won't have to feel this feeling.

Penny Williams [00:27:25]: Right? If you

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:27:26]: put your shoes on, I won't feel mad or rushed or stressed.

Penny Williams [00:27:31]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:27:31]: You can feel mad or rushed and stressed all on your own and still stay calm, hopefully. I mean, again, this is work. Right? This is why we have coaches and and parenting coaches in particular.

Penny Williams [00:27:42]: And we make podcasts to help you to learn how to do the things that nobody taught us how to do, and we had to figure it out. Yep. Exactly. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:27:54]: It can be really challenging. Like, I'm not you know, I feel like and I and people say this to me all the time. Well, it's so easy for you to say that. It was so hard for me to do. And I'm like, but it took me years to even have it be easy for me to say it. Right? It took years for me to show up and not be reactive, that that was my normal. Right? My initial instinct was reactivity because that's the way we're all wired. Yeah.

Penny Williams [00:28:21]: I had to really get very intentional, very mindful, and keep reminding myself the phrase that you said earlier. It was my mantra for years. My kid isn't giving me a hard time. He's having a hard time. You know? He would be screaming that he hated me in the grocery store. Everybody would be coming around the edges of the aisle looking. Right? My social anxiety was, like, 9,000, and I had to just, in my head, he's not giving me a hard time. He's having a hard time.

Penny Williams [00:28:51]: He's not giving me a hard time. He's having a hard time. Then I could say, okay, what is that hard time he's having? Yeah. Right? And it just helps you to stay in that perspective of kind of brain first. Right? This is a signal. What am I supposed to understand here? But it does take so much practice, so much practice.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:29:12]: And so much shedding of expectations. I mean, when you have an orchid kid we I I use different names for these kids. Right? Complicated kids, orchid kids, Beautifully complex.

Penny Williams [00:29:23]: Yep. Yep.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:29:24]: They are not able to go along to get along. They have a hard time a lot of the time. Yeah. And then what happens to parents is they give us, like, so many opportunities to let go of the things that we're holding on to. Right? Like, every day is a new opportunity to let go of embarrassment in Target. Yep. Congratulations.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:29:49]: And and, you know, I kinda say that facetiously, but also truly and sincerely.

Penny Williams [00:29:54]: It's a huge win. It's a huge win when you can be a little less reactive with your kid, I'm telling you. It feels better too.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:30:02]: Oh, yeah. Can I tell you a story from one of our classes? So we had a participant come through, One of the things we teach parents to do is to mindfully rub their palms together. This is a positive intelligence strategy. This mom didn't believe us and didn't believe us, and then finally tried it. She came back the next week, she was like, Oh, my goodness. My child had a meltdown in the line in the grocery store. And I stood there, and I rubbed my palms together, and I said, oh, this is so hard for you. This is so hard for you.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:30:33]: She said, and I could see everybody staring at me, and I actively did not care. And I stayed with myself, and she was done within 5 minutes. The kid was done within 5 minutes, and they left the store. And that kind of story gives me, like, that's the best of all of what we're talking about, right? Co-regulation, regulation, nervous system first, brain first, behavior as an indicator of what's happening internally, and then honoring that internal experience by validating this is so hard for you. Like that just like so good.

Penny Williams [00:31:08]: Yeah. How can I help you? I see that you're having a hard time. How can I help you with this? I mean, I call that the magic phrase. I've been talking about that one for years, which I actually learned from a friend of both of ours, Sarah Whalen, who's been on the podcast many times. You know, how can I help you? It changes. The other wonderful nugget I learned a long time ago in the same sort of time frame, you know, when your kid is having a hard time and you're trying to come in and be more calm in that situation, more level headed and settled. Robert Cox, who is a therapist in the Midwest, I think, had him on a summit years ago, and he said, the first thing you do when you come into that situation as the adult is you just take a big empathetic breath, and that is coregulation. That is regulating your own nervous system.

Penny Williams [00:32:05]: That is hopefully helping your child's brain mirror that action, and it gives you time to pause and be more intentional in how you respond, all from one empathetic breath. Right? It's magical. It's genius, and I often also add to that. Be sure your breath feels really empathetic to your child and not because it could go either way. Right? Yeah. Like yeah. Yeah. It's something you might have to practice in the mirror before you try it, because for me, I would have been, like it would have been exasperated.

Penny Williams [00:32:46]: It probably was at first, but I learned, right, how to how to modulate that better.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:32:52]: Yeah. You know, and the tendency is to, like, be, like, you need to take a deep breath. None of that. No, mom and dad. You need to take a deep

Penny Williams [00:33:00]: breath. Exactly. Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:33:02]: That's the only thing too. Right? It's, like, modeling versus telling our child to do something. They listen way more. They they watch us way more than the words we say.

Penny Williams [00:33:14]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:33:14]: You know, keeping ourselves calm, demonstrating that pause, taking that breath. First of all, we know breathing, like, physiologically has an effect on the nervous system. Yes. And we forget that something that simple and immediately available, we're like, what what app can I buy? You're like, no. No. No. Inhale through the nose, exhale through

Penny Williams [00:33:35]: the mouth. We're good. You don't have to complicate it. Just slow, deep breathing is all it takes. Yeah. So kids do not like to be told to take a breath. Actually, adults don't like it either. Think about if you were upset about something and somebody told you, just breathe, which happens, I think, to a lot of us with anxiety.

Penny Williams [00:33:54]: People who don't have anxiety don't realize that just being told to take a breath isn't going to help, because typically, we tell people to take a breath when they're already over the cliff. Right? So that nervous system is already reactive, the thinking brain is already dim, and you're adding language and a task. It can't be processed and done. So just showing them that breath could work, where telling is very unlikely to work, not because they don't wanna listen to you, but because they just can't deal with the language and the statement and the demand because of where their nervous system and their body is. Right?

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:34:36]: Yeah. And there's, actually, there's really interesting research on, like, vocal frequencies and a stress state, which makes them less audible.

Penny Williams [00:34:45]: Oh, yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:34:45]: So you become much less sensitized to higher frequency sounds and much more sensitized to lower frequency sounds, which would be like the roar of a lion or a tiger or the pounding of hooves on the ground kind of situation. And most of the time, people who are in an extreme stress response can't really hear you. They they don't understand. They can't process what you're saying, but they can't also hear you very well.

Penny Williams [00:35:10]: Yeah. Yeah. I think of it like Charlie Brown's teacher. It's just kind of this. You know? I had surgery about 7 months ago, I think it's been now, and I was very very anxious about it, like very anxious about it. I was worried I wouldn't even do it, and when I was in pre op, as we got closer, and there's lots of people around me telling me what they're doing, telling me what's gonna happen. Right? And slowly, it just went to literally like Charlie Brown's teacher. I couldn't take it in.

Penny Williams [00:35:46]: I couldn't do anything with it because I was in total freeze and shutdown because I was so anxious. Right? And then I really got what we are telling parents and what our kids are going through. Like, I fully experienced that you do stop hearing it, you do stop processing it, and I had to ask other people who were in the room later, oh, what what was I told about, like, afterwards? Because I couldn't do anything with it in that moment. It's just a really good illustration of what actually happens to our kids.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:36:21]: Yeah. And then, you know, if we think about that and, again, a sensitive nervous system that's experiencing these spikes in stress level day in and day out. And we, as parents, we, as therapists I mean, this is something I tell my therapists all the time. Your first job when you come in the room, you gotta use your spidey sense to see what the mood is.

Penny Williams [00:36:42]: Mhmm.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:36:42]: Because if we're too high or too low, then I can have the best, you know, speech therapy session planned in the world. It's all going out the window if you're not able to access me as a human. So that's why I you know, when I say toddler whisperer, I'm connecting nervous system to nervous system. And there's a guy, who wrote the book self reg, Shanker. He talks about the nervous system between caregivers and children, mostly parents, as being the umbilical cord on Wi Fi, which I think is genius. But even as a therapist, it's my job to go in that room and kind of, like if you think about Avatar, you know, they hook into the tree. Like, I gotta hook into that child's nervous system and see where we are and see if we're going to get any movement, and then I can execute on a lesson. But nobody's learning outside of I call it the zone of motivation, but, like, outside of a regulated state.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:37:42]: No one's learning anything.

Penny Williams [00:37:43]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:37:43]: So why are we even trying?

Penny Williams [00:37:45]: Yeah. There's a whole a whole realm, for lack of a better word, for availability to learn. I did a whole workshop on that before and pulled in Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the autonomic nervous system and all of these layers that determine if a kid is available to learn. Like, my own son, when he went into high school, 9th grade, everything went out the window. Like, he was just waiting for the bomb to go off all the time, every minute of the entire day that he was there. We ended up having to do hybrid where he went to school in person for a few hours a day, and he did school at home for the rest of the day because he just couldn't handle it. It was because his nervous system was so activated in that environment. He couldn't do anything but think about all the potential danger.

Penny Williams [00:38:40]: It was consuming him, which was awful, and we had had school avoidance already since 4th grade, so it was amplifying school avoidance. It was sending he would go to the bathroom and stay there the whole class and text me, and beg me to pick him up. Like, you know, just there were so many layers of what was happening. It was social. It was physical danger, like, lots of kids in the hallway, and lockers slamming, and doors opening, and people pushing you into them, and, you know, all these things. Kids who weren't following directions in class, or who were talking over the teacher, they weren't doing the right thing, right? All of this stuff, when you're already sensitive, everything is triggering you, and it's just this huge ball of inability, and just not available. His brain was not available to learn, and that's how I was able to talk to the school in a way to get that hybrid situation for him. I'm like, he's not learning anything when he's there, and his butt isn't even in the seat half the time.

Penny Williams [00:39:40]: He's in the bathroom. Like, you're not getting any of what the goal is here. We have to step back and look at that goal, and they have to be available.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:39:48]: Oh my god. He's so lucky to have you because I and I think because also you believed him. Yeah. Like, we often we do this override where we have a a a tendency to believe our children, and then we override it with, like, no. No. No. But they have to go to school.

Penny Williams [00:40:03]: Yes.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:40:04]: And never mind that to your point. He wasn't learning anything. He was in lockdown mode. Like, that's the equivalent of sending him into battle with no ammunition, no helmet, no equipment Yeah. And expecting him to just kinda come home and be like, and how was your day? It's

Penny Williams [00:40:22]: great. Everything was easy.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:40:25]: And so, yeah, really believing them when their behavior is signaling to us that their nervous system is in crisis.

Penny Williams [00:40:33]: Yeah. And I'll tell you, school avoidance and refusal is the hardest time for a parent to believe them and act on what you believe because you have a whole governmental system that is threatening you. Right? Like, that's the reality here. We can't just say, okay. Well, if you don't feel it today, that's fine. If you don't feel it the next 10 days, that's fine. Like, there's so much stress for the parent in that situation. It's just it's so awful.

Penny Williams [00:41:06]: It's really, really difficult, and so many more families are going through it now post pandemic than were before. It's just really, really hard, and we have to make the pivot so that kids feel safe. The whole thing comes back to where you started in the beginning. They have to feel safe to be available to learn, to have, you know, what we want to call good behavior, but I refuse to call behavior good and bad. It's regulated. It's dysregulated. Right? Anyway, that's a whole another story. I can rant on that.

Penny Williams [00:41:35]: I'm sure I've done it here on the podcast before, so, But, yeah, that whole safety issue, like, we just keep coming back to that. Right? That's the crux of it.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:41:44]: Yeah. Yeah. And I think going back to this believing, right, that it's real. Like, I often have to say this more than once to parents that I'm teaching or coaching, which is like, no. No. No. I know that asking your child to put on their shoes is not dangerous, but it feels dangerous in that moment today, not yesterday, maybe not tomorrow, today to them. So given that that is true and you do think you can believe me that that's true.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:42:15]: Yes. Okay. What do you wanna do now? How do we create safety? Is it by sitting next to them for a minute and reading a book? Is it by reminding them that they're gonna have a really good time at the next thing they're doing? Is it that we're gonna help them put their shoes on because it's something they really struggle with? And yes, they're trying to learn over time how to do it, but maybe today's not the day.

Penny Williams [00:42:36]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:42:37]: It's okay.

Penny Williams [00:42:37]: Yeah. It's okay if your 5 year old doesn't tie their shoes. It's okay if your 10 year old doesn't tie their shoes, but goodness gracious do we just get really turned inside out about it sometimes, right, because of those societal pressures, and we just have to be able to reject them, honestly, so that we can parent the kid that we have and meet them where they are. And maybe that believing them looks like believing that the seams in their socks feel like the end of the world, and buying them some socks without seams, or letting them wear sandals in the middle of winter. Right? Or, you know, whatever. Yeah. There's so much we can do to mitigate those battles. We just don't have to battle with our kids.

Penny Williams [00:43:18]: We can believe them. I love that. I'm gonna use that. We can believe them and then help them. Amazing. Well, I'm sure we could talk about this for days weeks months, but we are we are out of time for this discussion, But I want you to let everybody know where they can find you and your work and connect and learn more from you.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:43:40]: I have two places. The first one is speech kids for people in the Washington DC metro area. That's my speech therapy practice. There's a nice, like, 50 words that your child should be saying by age 2. If you go on there and sign up for the weekly newsletter, you get that nice little freebie at raisingorchidkids.com. That's our parent coaching and education practice. There's also a nice little freebie there. You can download a checklist to see if you're raising an orchid

Penny Williams [00:44:06]: Yeah.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:44:07]: An orchid kid. So those are the two places.

Penny Williams [00:44:09]: And then, of course, the complex kids complicated kids. Sorry. Complicated kids podcast. No.

Gabriele Nicolet, MA, CCC-SLP [00:44:15]: Thank you for doing that. I always forget. Yes. Come and listen to the Complicated Kids podcast wherever you get your podcast.

Penny Williams [00:44:23]: Yep. It's fantastic. And I'm gonna link all of those things in the show notes for everyone as well, which you can find at parentingabhdinaustisim.com/274 for episode 274. And I just wanna thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and also the work that you're doing in the world, helping everybody understand the interconnectedness of biology and behavior. It's so, so, so empowering. Not just important, it's empowering for the adults and the kids, and I love it. I love that you're out there spreading the word and helping so many families, and I will see everybody next time. Take really good care, guys.

Penny Williams [00:45:03]: Thanks for joining me on the Beautifully Complex podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share, and don't forget to check out my online courses and parent coaching at parentingadhdandauthism.com and at thebehaviorrevolution.com.