PAP 164

Helping Teens with Stress & Anxiety at School

with Natalie Borrell & Alison Grant

It has always been tough to be a teenager, which has been exacerbated by the COVID pandemic and schooling at home for long periods. Teens are struggling more with their mental health than ever, which means they need more support and guidance in this area than ever. But teens aren’t always open to talking with their parents about the hard stuff, or talking to anyone about it. 

In this episode of the Parenting ADHD Podcast, Natalie Borrell & Alison Grant of Life Success for Teens share the stress and anxiety they are seeing in their school and among their clients right now. They also offer tips and strategies to identify and help teens who are struggling.

Resources in this Episode

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My Guest

Natalie Borrell & Alison Grant
Natalie Borrell is the Founder of Life Success for Teens. She coached high school and competitive cheerleading for 8 years and this is where she realized that she had a gift for connecting with teenagers. Natalie and her team of coaches work 1 on 1 with students to build their confidence and motivate them to be the best version of themselves. She also has 15 years of experience working as a school psychologist in a public high school. Her areas of expertise include working with students who have ADHD, executive functioning weaknesses, and other learning differences.

Alison Grant joined the LSFT team with 15 years as a Family Consumer Science teacher at Willoughby South High School. As a teacher, Alison has advised groups including Student Council, Teen Institute and Class Officers. Alison has coached dance, cheer, and tennis and in 2011 was named Adele Knight Teacher of the Year. In recent years, she has been part of an initiative to develop a mentoring program that assists freshmen in the transition from middle school to high school. Alison earned her Academic Life Coach certificate in 2017 which allowed her to help students realized they can be successful inside and outside the classroom. Her favorite part of coaching is watching a student have a moment when everything clicks and their hard work has paid off!

Alison earned her bachelor’s degree in vocational education from Kent State University in 2003 and her master’s degree in educational administration from Ursuline College as well as a masters in school counseling from John Carroll University. Alison lives in Willoughby, OH with her husband and two daughters Maggie and Gwyneth. When she is not spending time with her family, Alison enjoys crafting and taking snapshots of her family’s adventures!

Thanks for joining me!

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Alison Grant 0:03

It's really about coming up with strategies for whatever it is that is in the moment. And their coping skill. It's not one size fits all. So we need to make sure that we're giving them different coping skills that will address different problems.

Penny Williams 0:19

Welcome to The Parenting ADHD podcast, where I share insights and strategies on raising kids with ADHD straight from the trenches. I'm your host, Penny Williams. I'm a parenting coach, author, ADHD a Holic and mindset mama, honored to guide you on the journey of raising your a typical kid. Let's get started. Welcome back to The Parenting ADHD podcast. I am excited today to be joined again by Natalie Burrell and Alison grant. And they've been on the podcast before always so much wisdom for our teens. So I'm really excited to talk again. This time, we're going to talk about helping our teens handle their stress and anxiety at school, which is so important, I think, especially now, coming back to school for a lot of kids from the pandemic. This has been a bigger issue, I think so why don't you guys introduce yourselves first, let everybody know who you are and what you do.

Natalie Borrell 1:23

For sure. Thanks so much for having us back. Penny. I think this is our third time do we get like a star sticker. I'm Natalie Borrell. And I'm joined by Alison Grant, who I often refer to as my work wife because we spend a lot of time together. And I am a school psychologist by training and also an academic life coach. And the work that Alison and I do along with our other coaches. Through life success for teens is designed to help teens build their confidence, we help them get even better grades and to reduce their stress. It's really our passion project. We've worked in the field of education. A lot of us coaches have worked, gosh, over 1015 years, some of us 20. And we love coaching because it just helps us make connections with teens in a different way than our regular jobs allow us to do.

Alison Grant 2:17

And I am Alison Grant. I am by day a high school teacher. I'm also a licensed counselor, or school counselor. And I love working with Natalie through life success for teens as an academic life coach, because the opportunities to help shift and change kids lives make such a huge difference. And it's amazing to watch a student have those aha moments and figure out just who they are and what they want to be.

Penny Williams 2:45

I think we should start by talking about the amount of stress and anxiety that teens are going through right now at school. I know that things have shifted a great deal do the pandemic and being out of school for a while and out of really a lot of social interaction. So can you describe first what you're seeing among the teens that you work with? As far as stress and anxiety goes today?

Natalie Borrell 3:12

Absolutely. This is Natalie. I'm going to talk first about the kids that we see at school. And then I'll talk about our coaching kids because it tends to be a little bit of a, there's a similar problem happening. But there are some differences. I would say just in general working in a public high school, the wave of mental health issues that I have seen this year is so severe compared to years past even the years through the pandemic. But this year, kind of the severity of what I'm seeing and the intensity of some of the mental health issues are pretty rampant, and honestly, pretty disturbing. And we have some kids coming in with like some schizophrenic tendencies. We have some kids coming in with a lot of paranoia. And that is something I have very rarely seen in my 15 years as a school psychologist, but this year, it's just become more common. And that's really scary. But as far as the kids that I see in coaching, what tends to be really prevalent this year is a feeling of extra stress and a different type of stress that our teens have felt in the past. And extra anxiety that just kind of seems to be coming from all over. It used to be that our kids could pinpoint what it was that was causing the anxiety like really named their triggers. And now some of them are still able to but a lot of teams that we see it's just this general anxiety that happens. And they're having a hard time naming what is causing it. And so it's just like this overwhelming feeling of anxiety that comes on sometimes unannounced or unprovoked. And that is confusing to them. And I think sometimes even harder to manage, because it's harder to you know, stay away from the triggers that we used to be able to name

Penny Williams 4:56

Wow. Yeah, in general anxiety D is tough, it's tough to deal with, it's more stress on its own. But it's also as a person with anxiety, it can be very pervasive and really hold you back. And it's so sad that our kids are struggling even more, high school is hard, a rowdy teenagers are hard already. And I hate to hear that they're even struggling more than that.

Natalie Borrell 5:22

And we used to kind of throw around the phrase panic attack. And kids would come to a session or come to me in school and say, I just had a panic attack. And that used to just be a way to say, I just had a really stressful thing happen, or I felt anxious. But now when I'm seeing because I have panic attacks, it's an actual physical reaction that I can see in front of me, not that it always wasn't before. But now when they say I'm having a panic attack, I can see it in their face, I can see it in their bodies, and I can see the way that they're reacting physically and emotionally, and it is more intense than in years past.

Penny Williams 5:58

And do you know what to attribute it to? Would you attribute it to the pandemic? Or do you think there's more going on?

Alison Grant 6:04

I think, absolutely, the pandemic has had an impact on everyone, and especially our teenagers, because they have lost this time to figure out how to be young people and how to be teenagers, and how to communicate and express themselves. And the coping mechanisms that they typically they're using, which, and I'm not judging, are their cell phones, and other passive points of expression. So they get stuck, because having a conversation or a dialogue with somebody or articulating themselves in a way that can often relieve anxiety is really foreign to them now.

Penny Williams 6:47

Yeah. And I imagine they're escaping, they're escaping into a different world, right on their phones. And that then is avoidance of the problem. And they're not learning coping skills that way, and how to move forward.

Alison Grant 7:01

I feel like, we always joke because I always have metaphors. But I feel like they're all just wearing an extremely heavy blanket right now. And it's everywhere. And they can't pinpoint exactly where the weight is coming from, because it's a blanket, and it's taking over everything. And so it's very hard to articulate and express what is wrong, because they don't know what's wrong, because it's everywhere. And it looks different on everybody. And so it's not like they can point out the monster, because it's so it just doesn't have the same look. And it's so frustrating. And so I I see kids that are normally when you know, you ask a question, and you get all these responses, it's just like you see this kind of like glaze of disengagement. Yeah. Which is not I don't think a normal thing that usually get with teenagers.

Penny Williams 7:55

Yeah, not across the board, for sure. Right. And I'm just wondering, teens don't really talk about their feelings that much, right, typically. And so they're not sharing what's going on, and how hard it is for them. And I think they're all internalizing more than it's just them. You know, it's just me, I'm the one who's struggling, but it's actually most of them who are struggling, but they're not sharing that.

Natalie Borrell 8:21

Yeah. And I think kind of the key there is that they're not sharing it a lot in general, but they are sharing it and sharing a great deal of it to their friends, or in one on one conversations with a trusted adult. And that may not be mom or dad, right? I'm thinking of my school psychologist position right now. Because when I have somebody come in one on one, they spill it all, I mean, they will tell me everything more than I even asked more than I even ever needed to know they spill it. And they always tell me, I've talked to my friends about this, because their friends are kind of their go to resource. But unfortunately, their friends aren't equipped with a counseling background, they might have a few helpful suggestions or say some positive things, but they're not really getting at the root of the problem. You know, they're not trained professionals. And so I completely understand why they go to their friends first. But we have to teach our teenagers to go to a trusted adult, hopefully mom or dad or whoever lives with them at home. But if they're not comfortable there, or it's just too heavy emotionally to do that, to figure out who else is on their team, who else is on their support staff that they can go to an even just event or get some extra help from

Penny Williams 9:33

Yeah, and I love that you told us about the kids spilling it. My son did that like four days ago. He's 19 and he got really angry about something and I went to talk to him about it and all these things started coming out it was just one thing after another after another after another a lot of things he's worried about and a lot of things that he wishes could be the way it used to be right and it is like just this pressure cooker, they're really getting hit from all angles more than I think they used to. And they need some sort of outlet for that that's helpful. And talking to friends is certainly helpful, talking to somebody is better than nobody at all. But I think there's so much to navigate now that they certainly need more skilled help as well.

Natalie Borrell 10:26

And sometimes they're uncomfortable talking about it at all. I'm thinking of a couple of my coaching clients, and they really prefer to write things out. And so we've used a couple of guided journal prompts, where we'll just kind of put something down on the paper, like, tell me everything that is driving you crazy right now. Or when you had a bad day, this week, what went wrong, and just kind of writing it and just doing some, like free flow writing can be really therapeutic too, as long as you also follow it up with Okay, now, what are we going to do about that? Or what are some strategies we can put in place to help you feel better, but for kids that aren't prone to wanting to talk to somebody writing out their thoughts can also be really helpful.

Alison Grant 11:07

The other thing is, I think it's really important that parents and adults are telling the kids to give themselves permission to feel like it's so important right now, that a lot of times they don't know that it's okay to feel a certain way. And I think that that permission to be angry, to be frustrated to be lost, or uncomfortable, is such a huge piece, because when you hear that from a trusted adult, it then gives them that permission to express themselves or to begin to express themselves to kind of feel the waters. And to check to see if it's, is it going to go, Okay, if I express myself? Or is this going to go terribly wrong, and I'm going to get yelled at, or I'm going to get in trouble, because maybe they've never done that before, when they don't know what's going to happen. And so I just think that it's really important right now for our parents and adults to be giving our children verbally saying to them, it is okay to feel fill in the blank or your permission to feel that, like they need to give that to themselves.

Penny Williams 12:13

Yeah, absolutely. And we as a culture tend to assign negativity to some feelings, like their bad, sadness, or anger and their natural, we all feel different things at different times. And it's okay to feel how you feel they're your feelings, right? And sometimes we just need help with them, or we need to talk it out. I love the idea of giving permission and really being very clear that it's okay to tell me whatever is going on for you and asked me for help. You know, I think two of the other piece of that is that we have to make sure that our kids know that we're humans, that we also struggle with things, we also make mistakes because otherwise, we've set this level of perfection, and they don't meet the mark. And so they think it's their fault, that it's them, they're not capable.

Natalie Borrell 13:04

1,000% agree with you and I, the word that keeps coming into my mind is modeling, like modeling that I get stressed out too. I feel anxious. Sometimes I feel heartache, I feel whatever it is, but this is what I'm doing to manage it and almost modeling it through our actions, but also saying it out loud, like Elson, I've had a really stressful week, I know you have to do want to go to yoga with me on Saturday just kind of like making it normalize, that we feel these things and that there are also steps we can take to help ourselves change that feeling and turn it into something that feels better.

Penny Williams 13:41

Yeah, normalize the such a good word. That's really what we need to do with so many things, I think part of it is that we, we tend to just want everything to be great. As human beings, we somehow strive for that. And it can be really disheartening to kids who are struggling to think that that's what they need to be.

Natalie Borrell 14:02

I think Alison and I both say this, we always tell our kids, give yourself some grace, like, acknowledge that the world is a little kooky right now, and that things are not normal. It'll cut yourself a little slack or however you want to say it, but nobody can expect perfection really ever. But it's especially right now, especially when we're all going through something heavy and emotional. And so that phrase, give yourself grace is something that I've kind of pounded into my, my clients heads and I have them remember it. In moments of moments of stress.

Penny Williams 14:32

Yeah, be kind to yourself.

Alison Grant 14:34

I think there are times as well that to kind of give an example I had a client who was struggling with her breaks. And she didn't understand why when her break got interrupted she was taking a break from studying and she didn't understand why when her breakout interrupted she couldn't jump back into her studying and she's like, why am I not able to just have that motivation that I normally would have. Once I gave myself a break And we talked about the fact that when a break is broken, it's not the same thing. And so it's so important for us to take time to acknowledge that when something is changed or shifted, that we're not going to get the same results when something happens, and that this is a perfect example of the same old coping mechanisms are not going to work. Because we're dealing with something that we've never dealt with before. And I know everyone is probably so sick of hearing that. But the reality is, is that we have to kind of pull some new strategies out and look at what we're doing that might even normally work, but doesn't work this time. And that that's okay, because we're just constantly under a pressure that we've never been before.

Penny Williams 15:53

Yeah, that's so true. And it's so much more difficult when it's unknown. Great. When we've never done it before, we're all trying to find our way. And again, I think we need to be transparent about that with kids. We're all trying to navigate this the best we can. And it's not easy, and it's new. And we can also do it, we can get through it,

Natalie Borrell 16:17

We like to equip our kids to have something we call it to Okay, these are actual tangible things that you can put into like either like a makeup bag or a pencil bag, just to have something that you can pull out in a moment of stress in school, or if you're feeling anxious. And just to give a few examples of some things that our students have put in there. Sometimes it's things like one of those like a stress rock or really smooth stress rock, or some kind of stress puddy something tangible that they can hold or kind of rub between their fingers. I've had some kids put pictures in their toolkit, I have a girl who put her lucky lip gloss in there, which I thought was. And then I have some kids who put like, whatever they play their music, I know, it's usually it's their phone, but some of them have like the old school iPads and things, just to keep a playlist of different songs, or even just to have that playlist of songs ready on your phone to help you to shift from whatever mood that you're in to the next mood else. And I often say that music is magical. And having a preset playlist is one tool that you can keep in your toolkit. Another example to keep in there are some lists of affirmations or things that you are grateful for. And I just love having this idea of something tangible you can carry around in your bookbag. So that when you feel stressed, okay, just pull that out and find something that's going to help you feel better in the moment.

Penny Williams 17:41

Yeah, I love that. And I think it does matter that it's tangible. It feels more real, it feels like it's a real resource.

Alison Grant 17:49

Absolutely. And then the other thing to note too, is that you know, if those tools aren't cutting it that day, that there are people at school that you can go to, to talk about things, it may be a teacher, but they may be in the middle of teaching, it may be a guidance counselor, maybe a school administrator, but just to have a conversation with your teenager about who would you go to, in case of some type of panic attack or stressful situation when your regular tools in your toolkit are working, I think to have that conversation and acknowledge who those people are. And what they could help you with is really valuable.

Penny Williams 18:25

Yeah, we actually did that for Luke when he was in school starting in middle school. And every school year at the beginning the night before, when they would open it up and you could walk around, we would go and we would find his person. And we would talk to them about how they were his person. And they would say yes, you can come to me at any point, and I will support you, it made such a huge difference because he knew there was someone there who understood if he was really struggling, and there were probably most people in the building who didn't get it because they didn't know him. This person would get it and would be supportive and helpful. And it made a huge difference for him, even in his willingness to go to school because we struggled with avoidance and refusal to and it's comforting to know that you have a plan if things go wrong, right? If you have a plan if your fears come true,

Natalie Borrell 19:17

And a backup plan is always good to have a backup person in case your first person is not there or is busy. You know even going into more detail is okay too. So you know, what can you go to Mrs. Smith for you know, might be different than what you go to Mr. Luke for you know, I go just on a personal I come to Allison if I need to just vent or if I need cinnamon tea, I go to somebody else if I need help with technology, just kind of knowing who you're going to and for what purpose can also be helpful.

Penny Williams 19:51

Yeah. And I think to offering kids breaks where they don't necessarily have to talk to anybody. My kid did not want to talk about things when he was feeling bad, it made it worse. And he had built in to his IEP that he could take a break, he could get up and he could go to the guidance office. And he could just sit on the sofa and get regulated and get calmed down and centered. And then he could go back to class. And that was super helpful to when he got really stressed, he was able to take a quiet moment, instead of sort of, okay, let's talk about it. How are we going to fix it? You know, sometimes teens just aren't there yet. They need to process rain. And that was a really good tool as well.

Natalie Borrell 20:34

Yeah, I think just even knowing, like having staff know, he just needs a few minutes is really helpful, because it is our go to as adults to jump in and try to fix the problem. Or let's talk about it. Let's hash this out. And sometimes they just need a minute. I have a couple students that come into my office. And I always just say, Do you want to talk? Or do you need a few minutes? Yeah, and half the time, they don't want to talk? They just want to sit on their phone? Or they have those adult coloring pages in my office, they want to do that. They want to use my fidgets. And then they're ready to go. Yeah, sometimes we don't even have a conversation. They don't want to or they're not ready to yet. And that is okay to them.

Penny Williams 21:10

Yeah. But by giving them that ability, we've given them a safe space, whether it's talking or not, they have a safe zone that they can retreat to when they're not feeling so safe when they're not feeling good. And it's super important that they're given the tools and the ability, there was always a fear among the administrators and teachers that he would abused that that he would just get up and leave class and never go back. And he didn't you know, what was happening was he was I needed to go to the office or in the you know, the nurse, I'm sick, and then the nurse would keep trying to get him to go back to class, you ready? Get you ready, yet you ready yet. And then he would completely melt down and I would have to get him. And I noticed that after an hour at home, he was totally calm and okay. And some days he even went back to school. And I thought, Okay, well, if people just not talk to him, like, don't try to fix it, just give him a minute. And it worked. And it was amazing. And he didn't abuse that. And I think we need to give teens more credit for that too. You know, they do want to do well, if they're not wanting to be in class, there's a reason they're struggling in that class. They're struggling in that environment or something. And so we have to give them the tools to be able to succeed.

Natalie Borrell 22:23

Totally agree, I don't see many teenagers at all abusing some of the things we put in place for them in school, of course, there's a few who are smart and savvy and just trying to get out of class. But for the most part, they use we have a little pass a special colored pass that they use, and it's just kind of like a Get Out of Jail Free card, it means I need to seek some support, no questions asked. And we just trust our kids with that. Now, the caveat to that is you have to tell them, you cannot go to the bathroom and cry and have to go see an adult. Because there's nothing worse than getting a phone call from a parent saying my daughter's in the bathroom somewhere texting me that she's having a panic attack. And well, we have eight bathrooms here, it's really hard to know where your kiddo is. So we always encourage them to just come see an adult when they get the past. So

Penny Williams 23:10

Yeah, and if you lay boundaries, then the expectation is completely clear. And most kids will abide by that they just well, they want to do well. They really don't want to be struggling. And so I just think they're not going to abuse things when they're given the opportunity to get what they need.

Alison Grant 23:30

Everybody processes things differently. And how they do that is different. I mean, I always joke, but my husband and I are like night and day, I need to, like verbalize it and he needs to sit quietly. And that doesn't really work well when we both get home because he wants to sit quietly. And I chased him room to room trying to tell him how my day was. But in reality is each person has to have their process and their way of doing it. And some days I do need just some quiet space. And then other days I need to verbalize it. And so people are going to be a little bit different. And we need to acknowledge that. And once they figure out their way of handling it, it can be very effective and helpful because then they feel empowered to actually use their skills that of you know what, I just need a couple minutes to relax or I just need to read for a couple minutes or I need to do whatever it is to get this done and get this off my plate to feel better. And now I'll be able to balance myself.

Penny Williams 24:31

And let's talk about how do we help teenagers realize recognize discover what is going to work for them.

Natalie Borrell 24:39

The first thing that comes to mind for me is it's a lot of trial and error. And you know there's some standard go twos as far as you know what's going to help you feel better and we try those first with our clients and if those don't work, then we get creative. Yeah, I'm not afraid to admit that I've gone on Pinterest before and looked up coping strategies because there's 1,000,001 different causes and some things that I've done this for 15 years. And then there's some I'm like, oh, that's smart. I met, I didn't think about one. So like just kind of exploring what all is out there, or what works for people that you know, or maybe some of your friends and just kind of compiling this list of things to try until you try something on that feels really good.

Alison Grant 25:20

So one of the things I love to do with some of my clients is to actually build like, a toolkit that they can use when they are having a hard time. So if they are struggling with anxiety, I'll say to them, okay, if you're anxious, or you're overwhelmed, is this something that you need to be distracted for? Or is this something that you need to acknowledge? And depending on what that is, you pull out, okay, I need to be distracted, then go listen to some music, or I need to address it. Alright, what do you need to write down to get this done to get this off your plate? So it's really about coming up with strategies for whatever it is that is

Penny Williams 26:02

The fact that if I don't talk about it, not really saying this, but by asking that question, were sort of alluding to the fact that if they don't talk about it, they may not be able to work it out that they can't just avoid it. Right, that there is that option of working on it, or there's the option of not yet maybe, absolutely. Any other strategies or insights you all want to share on this topic. Before we close?

Natalie Borrell 26:29

Yeah, I do have one other thing to add. In our work in coaching, we're often working with teens who are feeling stress, they're feeling anxious. And it's typical for what is happening in the world right now. But there are also some teenagers that are experiencing such a great deal of anxiety and stress that it borders the line of meeting some type of additional support. That's more than what could be offered in a school more than what could be offered in a coaching session. And that needs to be addressed by a mental health professional. And so I think it's always good as parents, and anybody who works with a teenager, to keep that in mind that while we want to be helpful, and we want to give all of these strategies and do what is best for a child, sometimes there needs to be an additional skill set or an additional professional working with that teenager who can really address it with a clinical lens and kind of provide that mental health or therapeutic component that is not always available in school or through coaching.

Penny Williams 27:27

Yeah, thank you for pointing that out. That's really important. And we're struggling with having enough of those kinds of resources available to so I would just say to parents, be persistent, you may have to call 10 places before you find someone that can take an appointment with your child, but it's really important to be persistent with it to really fight for what your kid needs. I think our therapists and our clinicians are pretty overwhelmed right now. But there are opportunities still, and we just have to keep at it.

Alison Grant 28:00

I think the other thing I would say about that is Don't hesitate. Yes, we were talking to a mom. And I could just tell by the conversation we were having, like, Parents Night, and we were talking to different parents about transitioning to high school, and her daughter was really having some struggles. And finally, I can't remember who it was Natalie, or I said, while academic coaching could be our support to her, what she really needs to start off with is a mental counseling. And it was like, We gave her again, I used the word permission, we gave her the permission she needed. She was like, it truly I watched her face kind of with the relief because I've thought this for a while, but I just wasn't sure. And it was like somebody else had to say to her, you need to take your daughter to counseling, they're going to be able to do a lot of the work that she needs right now. And that's okay. And you know what, that's where she's really going to find herself again. And I just remember that mom, because it was a look of relief, that somebody else said what she was thinking, but the two are afraid to say out loud.

Penny Williams 29:09

Mm hmm. Yes. And I think we still have to work on removing the stigma of Yes, getting therapy, for sure. Especially with teens. Although I think that I'm seeing more teens being open to it than I used to see, I would agree. So I think that's a really, really positive step in the right direction. But whatever your child needs, you want to provide that and sort of throw out your preconceived notions about it, and just have faith and walk forward, and do what you think is best and if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. Like you're not you're not jumping off a cliff by scheduling a therapy appointment, right? It's, it's not dangerous, right? Just give it a try

Alison Grant 29:57

It's one appointment. Yep, that's what I was. I would say it's one appointment, it's just one time. And if you don't like it, you're not married to it, you just try it and see how it goes. Yeah. And I've even gone even further to say, and if it's not a good fit, then you look for somebody new.

Penny Williams 30:12

Yeah, I was just gonna say that make sure that you're open to your child sort of leading you to try different people. Because if they don't connect, it's a waste of time, right? They really need a connection, especially teens, with that therapist or counselor. And so hear them if they're saying this isn't a good fit, and allow them to try some different folks. It's not like quitting the baseball team. It's just, it's just finding your place, right? Finding your person, that's going to be the most helpful, right? Thank you all so much for being here a third time. And thank you for having so insightful every time. You're so insightful. So many families listening are going to get so much out of it. And even parents of younger kids, this is where you're headed. This is what you need to know, right? You still should be listening and planning for the years to come that come pretty darn quickly, I have to say, right, so we will link up in the show notes, and links to your website and social media. And that's going to be available at for Episode 164, if you can believe it, and any resources that we've talked about will link up there as well. So that can be a good resource for you. Definitely, you can connect with Natalie and Allison and learn more from them. So much more than we could cover in 30 minutes. Thank you. Thank you so much. We'll see everybody next time. Thanks for joining me on the parenting ADHD podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share. And don't forget to check out my online courses, parent coaching and Mama retreats at parentingADHD

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